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Post by ruby2579 on May 14, 2012 18:01:06 GMT -5
seriously?/ it wouldve been a loose loose for you either way doppel. Damon wouldve saved Elena matt wouldve died and Delena wouldve hit the bump Damon was saying he wasnt gonna hit anymore to make it harder for Elena to use as an excuse.
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Post by Doppelgänger on May 14, 2012 18:14:35 GMT -5
And how is that an argument for what Stefan didn't do? Let me just say this, Damon has found a way to save Elena's friends time and time again, not that they're ever grateful or anything. He would have saved Elena, even if it HAD meant Matt died and he would have dealt with the consequences of that, because Damon is not afraid to upset her or make her angry at the risk of her damn life like Stefan is.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 19:44:35 GMT -5
I understand that this a thread about Stefan being a dick, but I just want to point out that if you looked at every interaction a character has with every other character all of them could be considered a dick. I mean do you guys really believe Stefan is more of a Dick then other characters on this show? I mean you get upset with him for being mean to Damon, but Damon killed his best friend for extremely selfish reasons and just expected Stefan to get over it because it was for Katherine. Katherine who was not even in the tomb. Damon threatened to kill Elena for similar reasons. Damon ditched Stefan when Stefan needed him the most. You could list things about Stefan too, I know. BUT If you love Damon and you do not consider him a dick how can you call Stefan one? I personally LOOOOOVE Stefan SOOOO SO much that I will always judge Damon harsher, but I at least acknowledge that. It seems to me that maybe some people need to acknowledge their own biased/double standard. I understand Stefan motivations and actions more then I understand Damon's so I just get more frustrated and annoyed with Damon, but again I know that I do this.
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Post by Doppelgänger on May 14, 2012 20:01:13 GMT -5
I never said Damon hasn't been a dick. Next argument... I mean nobody calls Damon, St Damon do they? It's the whole perception that somehow Stefan isn't a dick that I'm trying to break through here, not whether or not Damon can be a dick. That's been acknowledged and argued, forever. But that's not what this argument is about and it isn't so much you guys here. You've been great, but when Julie Plec keeps plowing along and disregarding the stuff he did in season 3 that was really heinous and acts like letting her die is some selfless act of love that I get frustrated with the show.
Because Damon can't look at someone sideways without getting called a dick and shunned for several episodes. Yet Stefan remains, St. Stefan no matter what he does. Why is that? Then this does trickle down to his fans and everyone turns a blind eye. There's no sense of any kind of acknowledgement in the show that what Stefan did this last season really sucked so I'm acknowledging it here.
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Post by Doppelgänger on May 14, 2012 20:19:44 GMT -5
I could just make a rant thread and go on and on about the things that annoy me in the show in regards to Stefan but this way at least you get a chance to rebutt it and sometimes I have learned I didn't see all sides to something by doing that.
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Post by Doppelgänger on May 14, 2012 20:26:37 GMT -5
Here's something else to think about. Stefan never lets Damon die. He lured him into turning. He threw him in the jail in the basement when he was going to die by taking off his ring rather than die from the werewolf bite. But for some reason he won't stand in Elena's way when she wants to do something that might get her killed, when it's life or death. So does that mean he loves Damon more or less than Elena? Think about that, cause I have.
It's totally nonsensical to say that NOT saving someone means you love them but then does that mean saving them means you don't? Sorry, not buying it. He's just too chickens*** to risk Elena being pissed off at him. It doesn't equal love. It equals coward. I guess we know who wears the pants there. I think if it came down to a choice between Damon and Elena and he could only save one of them, he'd save Damon so that doesn't say much for his love for Elena. He was ready to let her go multiple times this season, but he won't ever let his brother go, even in compelled ripper mode, he couldn't let him die at Mikael's hands.
Just saying, logically that whole argument fails miserably in light of how differently Stefan acts toward Damon vs Elena's possible death and him being the master of 'choice' also fails.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 20:58:35 GMT -5
Here's something else to think about. Stefan never lets Damon die. He lured him into turning. He threw him in the jail in the basement when he was going to die by taking off his ring rather than die from the werewolf bite. But for some reason he won't stand in Elena's way when she wants to do something that might get her killed, when it's life or death. So does that mean he loves Damon more or less than Elena? Think about that, cause I have. It's totally nonsensical to say that NOT saving someone means you love them but then does that mean saving them means you don't? Sorry, not buying it. He's just too chickens*** to risk Elena being pissed off at him. It doesn't equal love. It equals coward. I guess we know who wears the pants there. I think if it came down to a choice between Damon and Elena and he could only save one of them, he'd save Damon so that doesn't say much for his love for Elena. He was ready to let her go multiple times this season, but he won't ever let his brother go, even in compelled ripper mode, he couldn't let him die at Mikael's hands. Just saying, logically that whole argument fails miserably in light of how differently Stefan acts toward Damon vs Elena's possible death and him being the master of 'choice' also fails. First, I think Damon fans are the only people that call Stefan St. Stefan. So your point is invalid. That is not the perception of those that appreciate his character. Second, Stefan has learned from his mistakes with his brother and furthermore those situations are like comparing apples to oranges because he didn't NOT save Elena (double negative I know) he had all intentions of saving her. He just ran out of time AND it was not letting her die (like she wanted to in S2 when he said it would be tragic and not heroic) She wanted to know her best friend would be safe. That she would not have to live knowing that she was the cause of another death. If Stefan thought it was a suicide mission he would not have let her do it. Point invalid... sorry again you need to look at your opinions and see that maybe you are just harder on Stefan then Damon.
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Post by Doppelgänger on May 14, 2012 21:21:02 GMT -5
I just want to point out that saying my points are invalid doesn't actually invalidate them. Damon calls Stefan, St. Stefan. That's where it comes from and the point was that people overlook the things he did that were really crappy this season completely, even the writers for that matter. I mean I don't know how anyone can say that him threatening to drive Elena off the bridge was a good thing. When Damon forced her to drink his blood you SE fans freaked the heck out and so did Stefan, but yet he did the same thing, didn't he, with her on that bridge? What mistakes did he learn from and how do you know this? Are you saying he wouldn't save Damon again when he chose to die? He just did in season two with the werewolf bite. As for the drowning, shall I just say he was stupid then to not think she'd die or to come up with a solution to save them both? It's a good thing for Meredith, I guess. My point was there is nothing heroic about looking the other way and letting someone have their wishes if it may involve their death. He knows this about Damon but for some reason he doesn't seem to feel strongly enough about Elena (or he's afraid of losing her if he does) to do the same thing for her. Either reason is a crappy one.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 21:22:53 GMT -5
I just want to point out that saying my points are invalid doesn't actually invalidate them. Damon calls Stefan, St. Stefan. That's where it comes from and the point was that people overlook the things he did that were really crappy this season completely, even the writers for that matter. I mean I don't know how anyone can say that him threatening to drive Elena off the bridge was a good thing. When Damon forced her to drink his blood you SE fans freaked the heck out and so did Stefan, but yet he did the same thing, didn't he? What mistakes did he learn from and how do you know this? Are you saying he wouldn't save Damon again when he chose to die? He just did in season two. As for the drowning, shall I just say he was stupid then to not think she'd die or to come up with a solution to save them both? It's a good thing for Meredith, I guess. My point was there is nothing heroic about looking the other way and letting someone have their wishes if it may involve their death. He knows this about Damon but for some reason he doesn't seem to feel strongly enough about Elena (or he's afraid of losing her if he does) to do the same thing for her. Either reason is a crappy one. You are very condescending... I will have to respond tomorrow.
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Post by Doppelgänger on May 14, 2012 21:23:29 GMT -5
I just want to point out that saying my points are invalid doesn't actually invalidate them. Damon calls Stefan, St. Stefan. That's where it comes from and the point was that people overlook the things he did that were really crappy this season completely, even the writers for that matter. I mean I don't know how anyone can say that him threatening to drive Elena off the bridge was a good thing. When Damon forced her to drink his blood you SE fans freaked the heck out and so did Stefan, but yet he did the same thing, didn't he? What mistakes did he learn from and how do you know this? Are you saying he wouldn't save Damon again when he chose to die? He just did in season two. As for the drowning, shall I just say he was stupid then to not think she'd die or to come up with a solution to save them both? It's a good thing for Meredith, I guess. My point was there is nothing heroic about looking the other way and letting someone have their wishes if it may involve their death. He knows this about Damon but for some reason he doesn't seem to feel strongly enough about Elena (or he's afraid of losing her if he does) to do the same thing for her. Either reason is a crappy one. You are very condescending... I will have to respond tomorrow. I'm condescending? You told me my points are invalid. That was condescending.
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Post by ruby2579 on May 14, 2012 21:45:01 GMT -5
I think Teppy saying your comments are invalid and you saying "Next argument" like you dismissed it is the same thing..
I agree with Teppy in the sense that anything does will be look at like hes a dick. As a Fan of BOTH STEFAN AND DAMON I am not biased about either character. Stefan has done things that have been bad YES him taking extremes to threaten to to drive Elena off the Wikery bridge was horrible and also heartbreaking. DAMON forcing Elena to drink his blood(the 2nd time) was Damon at his desperation. I wasnt even upset with him when he did it. I felt it was hearbreaking that he doesnt trust enough and he screwed up but he has made up for it.
Stefan did not leave Elena to die. Teppy again made valid points when it came down to it he didnt have enough time to save both. Maybe Elena felt she can hold out a lil more since Matt was unconscious and she wasnt. I dont think Stefan is a punk for doing it, Maybe the writing in that scene couldve been a little better showing stefan saving both but Elena ran out of time anyway
Is Damon going to cut ass on Stefan for choosing Matt first YES AND i dont blame him for it, Same way Stefan will feel the same way.
Also you made a comment how Stefan never lets Damon die. AGAIN teppy made a point that he wouldnt let Elena just die either. You said many great point on how Stefan chooses his brother first but yet Im always seeing how Stefan could care less about Damon. So that confused me.
I have more to say but there was so much said that my mind is all over the palce
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Post by Doppelgänger on May 14, 2012 22:12:47 GMT -5
I think Teppy saying your comments are invalid and you saying "Next argument" like you dismissed it is the same thing.. I agree with Teppy in the sense that anything does will be look at like hes a dick. As a Fan of BOTH STEFAN AND DAMON I am not biased about either character. Stefan has done things that have been bad YES him taking extremes to threaten to to drive Elena off the Wikery bridge was horrible and also heartbreaking. DAMON forcing Elena to drink his blood(the 2nd time) was Damon at his desperation. I wasnt even upset with him when he did it. I felt it was hearbreaking that he doesnt trust enough and he screwed up but he has made up for it. Stefan did not leave Elena to die. Teppy again made valid points when it came down to it he didnt have enough time to save both. Maybe Elena felt she can hold out a lil more since Matt was unconscious and she wasnt. I dont think Stefan is a punk for doing it, Maybe the writing in that scene couldve been a little better showing stefan saving both but Elena ran out of time anyway Is Damon going to cut ass on Stefan for choosing Matt first YES AND i dont blame him for it, Same way Stefan will feel the same way. Also you made a comment how Stefan never lets Damon die. AGAIN teppy made a point that he wouldnt let Elena just die either. You said many great point on how Stefan chooses his brother first but yet Im always seeing how Stefan could care less about Damon. So that confused me. I have more to say but there was so much said that my mind is all over the palce Next argument as in, what is your next argument for Stefan? Because talking about Damon being a dick isn't an argument FOR Stefan and that's what we're discussing. But I did answer it. Stefan is a walking enigma to me. I don't understand him at all. Thus these sort of topics come up. I do think he MUST love Damon if he would save him like he has and I'm sure Damon loves Stefan, too. I don't think Stefan MUST love Elena if he wouldn't save her and saved her friend instead because she asked him to even knowing she could die and did nothing to help her escape on her own or whatever. There were options if he was thinking. I'm more of the Damon end of things on that whole issue so it bugs me when he gets slammed for wanting to save her life, even got his neck snapped for wanting to keep her out of danger, by Stefan. Stefan won't refuse Elena anything and it got her killed this time.
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Post by Doppelgänger on May 14, 2012 22:16:04 GMT -5
Stefan DID just let Elena die. He didn't do anything to help her escape on her own, just left her down there to die alone, not unlike his brother as a matter of fact, got left alone to die by Elena. Funny parallel that cause if she had continued on to Damon she would have lived but he might have died at Alaric's hands. But if Bekah could give him the slip, Damon might have been able to as well so who knows. I don't think Alaric wanted to kill him or he'd have done it alot faster. There was still a little bit of Alaric in there.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 22:16:31 GMT -5
I think Teppy saying your comments are invalid and you saying "Next argument" like you dismissed it is the same thing.. I agree with Teppy in the sense that anything does will be look at like hes a dick. As a Fan of BOTH STEFAN AND DAMON I am not biased about either character. Stefan has done things that have been bad YES him taking extremes to threaten to to drive Elena off the Wikery bridge was horrible and also heartbreaking. DAMON forcing Elena to drink his blood(the 2nd time) was Damon at his desperation. I wasnt even upset with him when he did it. I felt it was hearbreaking that he doesnt trust enough and he screwed up but he has made up for it. Stefan did not leave Elena to die. Teppy again made valid points when it came down to it he didnt have enough time to save both. Maybe Elena felt she can hold out a lil more since Matt was unconscious and she wasnt. I dont think Stefan is a punk for doing it, Maybe the writing in that scene couldve been a little better showing stefan saving both but Elena ran out of time anyway Is Damon going to cut ass on Stefan for choosing Matt first YES AND i dont blame him for it, Same way Stefan will feel the same way. Also you made a comment how Stefan never lets Damon die. AGAIN teppy made a point that he wouldnt let Elena just die either. You said many great point on how Stefan chooses his brother first but yet Im always seeing how Stefan could care less about Damon. So that confused me. I have more to say but there was so much said that my mind is all over the palce Thanks Ruby!! You def said it better then me. Doppple- I do apologize for being a bit condescending myself that was not my intention, but I agree it did come off that way.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 22:18:04 GMT -5
Stefan DID just let Elena die. He didn't do anything to help her escape on her own, just left her down there to die alone, not unlike his brother as a matter of fact, got left alone to die by Elena. Funny parallel that cause if she had continued on to Damon she would have lived but he might have died at Alaric's hands. How do you know he didn't?
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