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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 18, 2013 12:53:55 GMT -5
Maybe you should provide the counseling Doppel jk lol Stefan knew Elena had feelings for Damon but it was just a whole bunch of things at once that hit Stefan. Caroline telling him about the sex, the sire bond, her straight confession, her feelings about how she felt about him etc etc I think at this point no matter what Stefan does he will always be analyzed on how he couldve done it better or etc ext Caroline factored into this more than she should have. I said before that her piling all this news on Stefan, when he was trying to work towards the cure, was crushing him. Caroline is as much to blame as anyone and I really hope Elena chews her out. When Stefan said that Elena slept with Damon, the look on Elena's face towards Caroline should have been telling and Bekah's compulsions aside, I wonder if Elena would have jumped the table to get to Caroline. So you have Stefan trying to focus on the cure (and doing the extreme stuff to get it), Caroline telling all this crap to him, the sire bond and then you top it off with hearing all this stuff from Elena. The guy was broken at that point. I agree Caroline was a huge factor and I love my girl and all but this was a sucky thing on her part and Elena has every right to flip out on Caroline. I though she was going to chew her out right there on the spot lol
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Post by Slash on Jan 18, 2013 12:55:18 GMT -5
Ya that's too impulsive for me. What if she said yes??? His impulsive anger/hurt would have been a big mistake!!! Even if he didn't mean it he said it and you can't take it back. If Bekah did it them he could never take it back. How sad. Bekah wasn't going to let him off that easy. And he could have done a test run. Klaus cut out Stefan ever meeting him or Bekah for near 90 years (?). He sealed those memories up till he released them later. Bekah could probably do the same for Stefan, blocking out everything dealing with Elena (the clean slate) and seeing how it works for a month or 2. Happier? Feels like something is missing? Take down that barrier in a month, and let him compare and see what he wants to do then and make it permanent.
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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 18, 2013 13:05:21 GMT -5
Ya that's too impulsive for me. What if she said yes??? His impulsive anger/hurt would have been a big mistake!!! Even if he didn't mean it he said it and you can't take it back. If Bekah did it them he could never take it back. How sad. Bekah wasn't going to let him off that easy. And he could have done a test run. Klaus cut out Stefan ever meeting him or Bekah for near 90 years (?). He sealed those memories up till he released them later. Bekah could probably do the same for Stefan, blocking out everything dealing with Elena (the clean slate) and seeing how it works for a month or 2. Happier? Feels like something is missing? Take down that barrier in a month, and let him compare and see what he wants to do then and make it permanent. I actually wish they would've done it. haha BUT I really think memory cleaning is gonna go down this season for some reason.
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Post by luvitornot on Jan 20, 2013 3:08:35 GMT -5
Stefan's desire to have Rebekah erase his memories was anything but an emotional decision. Stefan never wants to deal with pain ever. He doesn't know how to, probably because he's not really accustomed to it. He certainly never thinks it's worth it when it comes to Elena. S3 anyone? Each time Elena wanted him to feel he told her, it wasn't worth feeling all the pain. She wasn't worth the pain he'd have to feel. I think we have to understand what's going on here, this isn't just "lashing out" and doing something stupid out of anger. Stefan and Damon are not the same, one can not assume that they deal with things the same way, or that their thought process is even remotely the same. Stefan sees Elena as playing a certain role in his life, and once she can no longer fulfill that role, he wants nothing to do with her.
Same thing happened with Katherine "his sweet angel" once he found out she was a vampire and not the sweet orphan girl he thought he knew, and declared his love to, he wanted nothing to do with her. Nothing she could say or do would get him to pay attention, he didn't even care for an explanation. He had a serious connection with Rebekah in the twenties but in the present even after having the compulsion lifted by Klaus he completely ignored her, didn't care if she died, didn't care about her at all, because there was no role for her in his life any more. The show has portrayed Stefan as having certain ability to drop his past loves or relationships when the girl no longer fits into his ideal picture of a relationship. This is no different with Elena. She's right in thinking that Stefan sees her as a toy, when the toy is broken the desire to play with it no longer exists. There's two things that can happen from this point on, you can either fix it, or throw it away. Stefan was doing the latter. And you notice he doesn't even react at all to Elena's accusations of him treating her like a broken toy, was he even listening? Or like always anything that's not about him gets overlooked??
This is interesting when directly paralleled to S3 where Elena was offered the choice of erasing all the "bad" things Stefan did to her, but she refused to... Because she thought her relationship with Stefan was worth feeling that pain, she thought he was worth it, and even though she was distraught and devastated, she didn't take the easy way out. Damon told Elena in S2 that he'd gladly make every horrible choice again, relive every moment of pain for the last century if means he'd get to know her. Just know her, not be loved by her, or be in a relationship with her. If only he could know her again. IDK Stefan jumping at the opportunity to have his memory wiped clean of all things Elena is waaayyy over the top, even if he was hurt. That's extreme, and Stefan has always been one extreme or the other, he never has a middle ground.
And I'm not sure how he was able to get away with lying to Rebekah about why they broke up when he was supposed to be compelled. They did not break up because she slept with Damon, her sleeping with Damon clearly happened AFTER they broke up. But Stefan is not really all that sane, so I can imagine he thought that they really weren't broken up even though it happened and they said the words. His reality often doesn't coincide with everyone else's.
And in response to something I read in here: Elena owes Stefan NOTHING once they've broken up! She can sleep with Damon minutes/seconds/milliseconds after if she chooses to, that's none of Stefan's or anyone else's business! Once they're over she has no obligation to him anymore He doesn't get to act upset about that! And the idea that he's entitled to be and treat her the way he did is wrong IMO.
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Post by Slash on Jan 20, 2013 3:25:29 GMT -5
And I'm not sure how he was able to get away with lying to Rebekah about why they broke up when he was supposed to be compelled. They did not break up because she slept with Damon, her sleeping with Damon clearly happened AFTER they broke up. But Stefan is not really all that sane, so I can imagine he thought that they really weren't broken up even though it happened and they said the words. His reality often doesn't coincide with everyone else's. Nice write up And this is something that has kind of stood out for people: he said they broke up cause she slept with Damon when he broke up with her, mutually at that, because they saw they were being pulled in different directions. This was before the sex. So either Stefan 'broke' up with her to kind of give her some space/peace of mind with hanging out with Damon while he helped her become a Vampire and Stefan in his own mind still considered them together while he got some space between them to focus on the cure or that's a massive oversight by the Writers for making that Stefan's answer. Does he even know when Damon & Elena had sex? Or is he just going off the vague info Caroline is passing him about everything? Either way, because Elena had sex with Damon *IS NOT* the reason they broke up, cause he didn't know about that till after they broke up. The only way the statement would have been valid is if Damon & Elena had sex in Denver (and Stefan assumed it was there that this happened) but Stefan didn't want to know about Denver and once again, it was not the reason he broke up with her cause it makes no sense that after all this time, he'd pull the trigger on letting her go and cite her sleeping with Damon as the reason. Unless, Stefan is from the future and knew they were going to sleep together and broke up beforehand, providing Elena the opportunity to sleep with Damon in the first place but if that's the case, he shouldn't be surprised they slept together cause he would know it was going to happen. My conclusion? There are 2 Stefans: one from the present timeline and one from a future one. The one from the future broke up with Elena and was telling people they broke up, causing Damon & Elena the opportunity to have sex and not informing his present self which explains the shock/stupidity of his own statement. I've got nothing...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 8:19:50 GMT -5
Okay seriously this is crazy Stefan can feel hurt--the fact that people are upset that after all he had sit through that episode he is hurt. I didn't think it was very shocking at all that Stefan would want that.
Stefan really just came out of the dark of last season. He has gone through a lot of pain with this relationship and this is his brother and the person he loves and had a very long and intense relationship with. I agree with Ruby when I say it was different for Damon because he might love her the same when he had to watch Stefan and Elena together, BUT the fact that Stefan and Elena have slept together, have had mutual intimate memories together and have leaned on each other for a long time AND now she is doing that with someone else is very different feeling.
Just watch when Damon will have to do the same thing because you know if this show last a couple ore season it will not stay DE. It is a different and in my opinion more painful experience. So whatever in that moment he felt it would be best for himself and everyone else if it was forgotten. I am happy it wasn't, but gesh give Stefan a break. It might have been an easy easy way out, but it was not because his toy was broken it was because the love of his life didn't want him anymore and not because of the sire bond, but because she loves his brother (according to Elena)This is not like Katherine or Rebekah--Katherine lied and lied to Stefan used him and Damon so of course they both left her and gave her no chance to redeem herself. Damon did the same thing. Took him longer, but he did the same thing. Rebekah was from a time where Stefan was not himself. Who he was compatible with then is not now and she was in the way of saving Elena who he loves.
As for saying he hates his brother. Well, whatever he does right now. It is not like Damon hasn't given the same sentiment over and over again. This is their relationship they say they hate each other until it really comes down to the wire and then they show that they love each other. This is the show we watch. They both say it act that way until a point (usually when one of them needs saving)
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 20, 2013 11:22:19 GMT -5
It is curious that Stefan blamed their break-up on Elena sleeping with Damon. I kind of put it in the same category of all his lies. He has always changed the story around to suit his needs. This is nothing new for Stefan. I'm not sure how he could get way with it under compulsion, however. Either that or it was what was firmly in his mind at the moment as the BIG reason they are now broken up, like he won't take her back or whatever for that reason and prior to that he still had hope of that. Yeah he has a right to feel whatever he feels, but if he was the hero the SEs claim he is, he would not be out for revenge or try to hurt Elena or Damon for it. So, we shall see what happens from here. I also don't agree that it's ok that he should want to just erase his memories like that. It does seem to show his total lack of value of that relationship if he would so easily throw it all away.
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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 20, 2013 12:47:23 GMT -5
You know what I agree Stefan went extreme with the.memory wiping. Ive realized that stefans ways of coping with his pain is one extreme or the other extreme. Ripper or not consuming no human blood at all. I think this season its going to help with him learning how to face his emotions without spiraling and its gonna take him to hit rock bottom which I feel he has hit.
Regarding stefan saying about the break up. REBEKAH didnt necessarily say why did you break up. She said so what happened. Stefan had been drinking through that day. I think he just blurted out out to let Elena know hey I know about the sex. I don't think he did it to lie. And sorry but not all SEs consider stefan a hero. None of these characters are heroes.
Same way you guys justify Damon when he falls into his impatient actions stefan is allowed to be justified when he makes mistakes
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 20, 2013 13:21:38 GMT -5
Thing is I have always called Damon on his crap! When he killed Jeremy I made no excuses. It pissed me off that the writers wrote that and instead of justifying his behavior I blatantly recognized that he can't do that! I love Elena and at the end of the day "their anger" affects her! So there was no justifying him trying to turn Jeremy. He didn't see the ring but he knew there was blood in his system and so out of anger he took it way too far!!! I also think it was wrong when he snapped alaric's neck! His anger sucks sometimes but it is who he is! It won't make me stop loving his character but I can sit here and say "hey Damon that was f-Ed" up and not be blinded by my love for his character. When Damon killed Jessica it was one of the realist moments for him. I wanted so badly after that beautiful scene for him to have let her go. But his anger was magnified and his vamperism win. He didn't like feeling and in the end he chose to turn it off in that moment and feed. Perfect case of humanity losing to their nature. Do I wish he didn't kill her then? Yes. I think after all that seeing her fear I think he was wrong in killing her. I won't justify his actions. I can sit here and understand why the writers decided to show those two different extreme sides to him. There are times when I will say flat out Damon that was dumb or Damon you didn't have to do that! When Damon fed Elena his blood to me that was wrong but I understood his actions and in his shoes I would have made the same decision because I know that if that person died I would never see them again. I'd take the consequences for my actions like he did. But in the end was the action of doing that to Elena wrong? Yes! Elena didn't want it!
I just gave multiple cases where I called Damon out and did not justify his actions even though I understood why the actions had been written by the writers. Just bc you can understand someone's struggle doesn't make the actions justifiable!
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 20, 2013 13:30:58 GMT -5
One of the biggest reasons I love Damon is because he is so flawed. I've never been one to like the 'heros' or the perfect ones or the ones pretending to be perfect (which I think Stefan falls into this category). No, give me the anti-hero, the guy who knows he's bad, who doesn't always do the right thing, and sometimes does the absolutely wrong thing, any day. At least he knows it. He has room to grow and change and become better and that's exactly what we've seen Damon do while Stefan remains the same, still with the Ripper on his back, still in denial, still running away from himself, everything bad about him and consequently everything that he feels is bad about Elena now. Until he can overcome that and face it and start the hard work of changing it he's not going to be a character I like.
I don't see this as Stefan's rock bottom. He is capable of slaughtering entire villages. THAT is his rock bottom. It's a little lower than most people's. The truth is he is absolutely awful, horrible and a murdering fiend the likes of which even vampires and heck even Klaus are in awe of. THAT is who Stefan is and that is what he needs to face. Once he realizes how truly awful he is his entire attitude has a chance to change and maybe he will see his brother in a different light as well.
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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 20, 2013 13:39:12 GMT -5
Ok I used the wrong word in justifying but I dont recall ya here ever saying damon was wrong u guys just understand him which Im ok with but u never go on hate rants.about.how messed.up he.is if anything you feel for him but it's like stefan fans are just called delusional if we defend him. Stefan does and has done many effed up things but to me walking away from Elena right now is not one of them. Being upset about the sex between Damon n Elena is not one of them. Wanting to still find the cure to supposably see if her feelings for Damon are true? Ehhh I think that is part of it but he still wants to save her and to break the sirebond. He is going to use that excuse he gave rebekah because he's angry still. Will he mess up along the way? I guarantee it but at the end both brother will do what it takes for Elena
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 20, 2013 13:42:18 GMT -5
Well I've already read spoilers so I know that he will continue to work with Damon and Elena and there will even be some Defan moments so not all is lost that way. I can only imagine the sarcasm and possible punches coming Damon's way, though. But they will always come together when there are outside forces trying to tear them apart, no matter what crap is going on between them. Mostly I just don't say anything when I think Damon messed up. I think to myself, Damon he really messed up, and I might say it like that, but I'm not going to hate rant, of course not. He's my favorite character and I know even though he messed up that he will pull himself back together and try to do better next time because that's the journey he's been on. He doesn't really like doing bad things anymore which shows how much he's changed already. He'll still do it if he has to or for the greater good, but it doesn't thrill him like it used to in the beginning of this show. He learned to care about people. It started with Elena and spread out from there. He shot Klaus and said it was for Carol Lockwood. He even cared about her! This is not the Damon that showed up in Mystic Falls, but I think it is the Damon from 1864 whose heart was shattered into pieces. But anyway, I'd just like to see Stefan think about what Elena said and think about himself and how he should really be working to overcome the Ripper for good and try to be the person that she did love at one point, if she matters so much to him, which right now, is questionable from his actions. Because I saw him exactly as Elena described and I'm not sire bonded. There is truth in what she told him.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 20, 2013 14:04:12 GMT -5
Ok I used the wrong word in justifying but I dont recall ya here ever saying damon was wrong u guys just understand him which Im ok with but u never go on hate rants.about.how messed.up he.is if anything you feel for him but it's like stefan fans are just called delusional if we defend him. Stefan does and has done many effed up things but to me walking away from Elena right now is not one of them. Being upset about the sex between Damon n Elena is not one of them. Wanting to still find the cure to supposably see if her feelings for Damon are true? Ehhh I think that is part of it but he still wants to save her and to break the sirebond. He is going to use that excuse he gave rebekah because he's angry still. Will he mess up along the way? I guarantee it but at the end both brother will do what it takes for Elena I will never hate rant my favorite character on the show. I would never open a debate thread and come on and hate rant about him. That's kinda funny. Who would do that. LOL But I will call him on his ish if it's brought to my attention. i wouldn't spend pages and pages of a debate defending him if ultimately his actions no matter how much you understand them were wrong because it hurt Elena. I think we venture to far off from Elena. We just want our guys so much with Elena that we cant see the pain they cause to her through their actions. Does Stefan have every right to be hurt? Yes. Did he break up with Elena?Yes. Does that take away his right to feel pain? No. But at the end of the day he did set her free to be and do what she wanted to do with Damon. Can maybe you understand Stefan's pain in the moment he wanted his memories erased? Sure. He heard a lot of crap he didn't want to hear but was him telling Rebekah to wipe his memories of Elena wrong? YES! Was it rash? Yes. Was it a bit immature? Yes. Did it hurt Elena? Yes! You may understand how his pain could have made him say this but that doesn't take away the fact that what he wanted was WRONG and asking for it was WRONG! Also does Stefan believe in the Sire Bond or not? Does he think Elena's actions are because of the Sire Bond or Not? One moment we have him wanting to erase his memories for something that he thinks is Sire Bond... So it's not her fault? But you still would erase your memory of her anyway? Then we have him say he is done with her... He is done with Elena who is sire bonded? Elena who may have hurt him but only did it because she is sire bonded? And then we have him say he wants to see once the bond breaks what she feels for his brother so DO you Bellevue in the sire bond or not? Is it her fault or not Stefan? You want your memories erased and your done with her over something that could not even be her fault yet you would throw her away for it? But in the end your still too curious so you want to break the bond to know her true feelings. It's a bit confusing. In one breath she is sire bonded so she has no control over her actions and then in the other breath who cares about the sire bond and if it's her fault erase my memories and I'm done with her.... But if we get a cure then maybe I will still be there? Because I'm curious to know... I'm just confused as to where Stefan stands and I cant relate to his "issues" with Elena right now. Had he been like Elena you knew what you did and you effed up so I don't want to know you, erase my memories.... and I'm done with you I would have understood. I still would have thought that was jacked up but at least he admitted her actions were her own so the blame was hers. But he didn't. He still believes it's because of the sire bond and yet because of his pain he is still done with her and wanted his memories wiped clean...
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Post by luvitornot on Jan 20, 2013 14:05:14 GMT -5
Okay seriously this is crazy Stefan can feel hurt--the fact that people are upset that after all he had sit through that episode he is hurt. I didn't think it was very shocking at all that Stefan would want that. Stefan really just came out of the dark of last season. He has gone through a lot of pain with this relationship and this is his brother and the person he loves and had a very long and intense relationship with. I agree with Ruby when I say it was different for Damon because he might love her the same when he had to watch Stefan and Elena together, BUT the fact that Stefan and Elena have slept together, have had mutual intimate memories together and have leaned on each other for a long time AND now she is doing that with someone else is very different feeling. Just watch when Damon will have to do the same thing because you know if this show last a couple ore season it will not stay DE. It is a different and in my opinion more painful experience. So whatever in that moment he felt it would be best for himself and everyone else if it was forgotten. I am happy it wasn't, but gesh give Stefan a break. It might have been an easy easy way out, but it was not because his toy was broken it was because the love of his life didn't want him anymore and not because of the sire bond, but because she loves his brother (according to Elena)This is not like Katherine or Rebekah--Katherine lied and lied to Stefan used him and Damon so of course they both left her and gave her no chance to redeem herself. Damon did the same thing. Took him longer, but he did the same thing. Rebekah was from a time where Stefan was not himself. Who he was compatible with then is not now and she was in the way of saving Elena who he loves. As for saying he hates his brother. Well, whatever he does right now. It is not like Damon hasn't given the same sentiment over and over again. This is their relationship they say they hate each other until it really comes down to the wire and then they show that they love each other. This is the show we watch. They both say it act that way until a point (usually when one of them needs saving) I'm not saying that his relationship with Katherine and Rebekah were the same as with Elena. But with Katherine, even though she lied and 'abused' him, he claims he was in love with her, that she was his angel! Upon finding out what he had done to her, instead of pretending she never existed and he never loved her, any normal person would want an explanation, to know why? Stefan never even cared at all, he just told himself he never loved her, and that she compelled him to which is not at all true. That's not how you get over someone you "loved" no matter how much they hurt you, or what's revealed about them. So I tend to take it as Stefan not having an issue with dropping people when they don't fit the image he has for them, when he no longer has any use for them. Stefan was drawn to Katherine because he saw her as a sweet orphaned girl. Once it was revealed that she wasn't, he wanted nothing to do with her. He doesn't even care to hear an explanation. Carried her photo around for centuries wanting to relive that experience and then he did when saw Elena. Rebekah is the same. He had some level of affection for her in the 20's, regardless if it was during a ripper decade (and the ripper is not a different person from Stefan..). Regardless of the fact, it didn't matter to him if Rebekah died, he didn't even care about her at all. Just because he was a ripper at the time doesn't mean his feelings are supposed to be any less real. At least I would have expected some conflict over his feelings for Rebekah, but we got nothing. Just utter indifference, and I think it's because Stefan has no problem letting people go when he no longer has any use for them. And what's happening with Elena in the present? Say there wasn't a cure at all, do you think Stefan would still want to be with her as she is? Of course he wouldn't because she's not the Elena he pictured, she's changed since she turned (as did everyone else), he's hoping to cure her so that they can get her back. He's convinced himself that she's a different person, and this confuses me so much because I can't understand where he got that idea. Aside from her heightened feelings for Damon in what way has Elena changed at all? She's still willing to martyr herself for the people she loves, she's still careful about not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings. The only difference is she's stop trying to live up to people's expectations and allows herself to do what makes her happy! Something she never did as a human. And it's funny you add that Stefan and Elena had this intimate relationship for a long time and that's why he's so hurt (which really isn't that long since its only been a year in MF, and they've broken up/been separated . for months at a time) but he was willing to throw all that away anyway. Toss it aside because he lost her, it was as if none of that meant anything if they're not together anymore. That's basically what he was saying when he agreed to have his memory erased without even so much as a hesitation. And TBH I'm kinda over hearing about Stefan's pain. Stefan's pain is all Stefan ever thinks about. So why should I feel sorry for him, when all he does is sit around feeling sorry for himself! He hasn't thought about the pain he's inflicted on Elena, there are things in which he's never even apologized for in S3. Wickery bridge anyone? And he sure as hell isn't losing any sleep after learning he made her feel like a broken toy! Which is awful! No one's pain matters to Stefan, but his own. And he feels so completely justified in his attitude and his actions, it's hard to feel sorry for him. He learns nothing each time, he tunes out Elena's issues and her pain (which he's the main cause of) and fixates on his own, because he's completely self absorbed. Has Stefan taken any responsibility for anything he's done that might of played a role in their break up? No. Instead he points the finger completely at Elena. About Damon, he lashes out and does some stupid sh^t, I don't think anyone will ever deny that but he always owns it, and he always claims responsibility, regardless if he was hurt or upset or whatever... And he always tries to make amends, and he always humbles himself afterward, he doesn't go around acting entitled and spoiled about it.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 20, 2013 14:16:48 GMT -5
Yup and that's what makes Stefan so hard for me to like. I think we have seen some signs he might be starting to realize things, like his speech to Caroline about Klaus, but I'm not sure if he was raising Klaus up to his level or actually realizing he's no better than Klaus. The jury is still out on that. But this should be a turning point and it would be if I was writing it. I'd have Stefan realize the things he's done that messed up SE and the things he's done in his own life to run away from his problems and start his redemption arc because he needs one and now would be a good time for it. I just doubt it will happen because they let his character sit there and never grow. It's like he's the constant, always the same.
Stefan's character is one of my least favorite types, the type who thinks they are right, who thinks they are good, who thinks they are better than other people! Who are hypocrites! I absolutely hate people like that! Which is probably why I hate Stefan and hope that he overcomes those attitudes. I mean even in the New Orleans flashback about him having to apologize to Damon he says as he's practicing for the apology, "I'm sorry I blamed you for my blood lust and for me becoming a Ripper." "Do I really have to say it wasn't his fault, Lexie?"
I was taken aback by that. Did he really blame that on Damon? Damon had no idea he was as far gone as he was in 1912. He was shocked when he tore that girl's head off. How could he know? But somehow Stefan found a way to blame Damon for his problem, that he is a Ripper incapable of self control. That's just one example of how he won't take responsibility for his own actions.
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