Elena's Guilt within the Triangle

[Ruby2579]

I wanted to make this into its own thread because its a pretty good discussion in the DE Thread but I also feel the few Stefan fan's here should have a right to defend if they want to =)

Stefan is not on the top favorite character list for most of you here but I feel Stefan has every right to feel betrayed, hurt, jealous and upset about this whole dilemma with Damon and Elena. And I also feel Elena should feel guilty about causing Stefan this type of pain.

If you see it or not, Stefan has been a major part in Elena's life. Same as the other characters. Yes as time has gone on she has grown closer to Damon and has fallen for him but it doesnt mean she should just say the hell with you stefan. They ended on normal terms.

I dont understand how some can be upset if Stefan "sucker" punched Damon in the beginning of the season but its okay for Damon to show brotherly sympathy for the break up to his brother, tell Elena hes not sorry about the break up, and then have sex with her all in the same day.

She hooks up with Damon the day after the break up and she wanted to be straight up with him and tell him because as we all know Elena is the compassionate type and she is going to feel guilty when stefan tells her he knows or even if she wouldve been the one to tell him.

Stefan has done some messed up things but so has everyone else especially Damon (overall throughout all the seasons) and not everyone has apologized for what theyve done so I just feel Stefan should get some slack.

I probably have more to say but its 2 in the morning and im about to hit the sack. Look forward to reading the replies. lol

[Slash]

I think Elena should put her hands up, say "f*** it" and get the hell out. Doing this whole 'triangle' thing is nothing but trouble for all involved and they all damn well know it. She was feeling guilty as a human for having feelings for Damon, her BF's brother, and she did her best not to act on them. She wasn't even honest with herself with how she felt about him but everyone else could see. Hell, she got caught up in a 'choice'.

Now she's a Vampire and her & Stefan parted ways 'mutually' on the relationship and not even 24 hours later, she's hooked up with Damon (sire bond and what have you). She's a Vampire now and the emotions are just too much for her to shield now. All the same, that guilt about what she's doing now with Stefan watching from the side lines is going to be the 'Damon on the side lines' crap all over again. She'll be with Damon and when she has the free time to think (or when this sire bond thing blows over), she'll be seeing that she's hurting Stefan with her current relationship like she was hurting Damon earlier and that's going to weigh on her because she wants/needs both Brothers in her life.

Should Stefan feel 'hurt'? Sure. Betrayed, upset and jealous? These have probably been ongoing emotions for him. He's known. He's seen the writing on the wall. We're just seeing the reaction to the reality of this finally happening. I don't think he expected it to happen this quickly though, the sex and all (but lets chalk it up to the sire bond). Maybe some 'down time' after the break up that everyone would kind of 'respect' (Elena gets some time to be single, Damon doesn't want to stress the relationship with Stefan, etc.) but not a full blown relationship with his brother the next day. Damon & Elena just finally let those emotions play out after the 'shackle' known as Stefan was cut free and they went full on.

Everyone should feel guilty though. Elena for dragging this thing on with the Brothers knowing the history and the Katherine thing, the Brothers for being caught up in the Katherine-esque bulls*** *AGAIN* and for treating each other in antagonizing manners in the process and those outstanding friends for keep pushing on Elena about the Damon situation when she was human confusing the girl even more to make a 'choice'. No one deserves 'slack' cause everyone knew how this was going to play out. They want that short time frame of 'satisfaction/love' in their miserable lives and they're tearing themselves down and apart to get it. The heart/love wants what it wants and all but this was a train wreck waiting to happen. We knew that, regardless of what side you want to root for and all we do is sit by and watch the crash happen in slow motion with the few odd glances of someone (or couple) making it out but we know in the end, someone is going to be wrecked in the end. They'll either be left broken or get a new outlook on life and find something/someone new to be happy with.

Mystic Falls though. Might be a pretty town but the first time someone offers up relationship advice there or wants to 'help out' on that front, I'm punching you in the damn face (you've crossed the line already if your reaction is "You're going out with her!?" Tone and delivery of that line means all the difference of you staying in your seat/standing or getting up off the floor an hour later). If this show is any indication, relationships in that town have an expiration date, sometimes attached to one of the people in said relationship and when people start poking their noses in others' relationships, they go south.

[Ruby2579]

Lmao woah Slash you went in not sure if you agreed disagreed or just went straight rant mode loved it haha

[Deleted]

Okay I guess the biggest problem I have with what you said slash is "the shackle known as Stefan"

Stefan was not a shackle I know some DE fans do not want to admit that Elena loves Stefan and will always love Stefan it is not shackles to be with someone you love. I get what you meant, but it was more of having morals and values that was stopping her not "Stefan"

On the point of this thread Stefan had every right to punch Damon the beginning of this season... Damon was blood sharing with HIS girlfriend behind his back. They are suppose to be brothers! ugh I mean seriously it was justified.

Stefan being mad about Damon and Elena having sex also justified, I mean I think he is taken back because he would probably expect that from Damon except Damon and him just had a bondng moment on their trip BUT he was VERY blindsided by ELena. I mean he knows that she is a vampire sired whatever BUT he has every right to believe she loves him-and to be shocked that she was so impulsive fine hurtful but add that Damon his brother was also so impulsive. Did not even have the decency to tell Stefan. For him to have to find out from someone else. It was just low. Everything about was hurtful to Stefan. The hiding-the lieing-the people involved- and the fact that everyone knew but Stefan and it made him look like a fool. For him to say nothing would make him emotionless void of feelings and pathetic.

[Ruby2579]

Right on Teppy
I have more to write but heading to work now

[Slash]

I simply meant a 'shackle' in regards to Damon & Elena getting together (as you pointed out, morals and such with wanting to not to hurt Stefan in the process by both parties but also in Elena's case, what others would think. We've seen the girl just stand there and listen to Damon get badmouthed knowing better of the guy but she doesn't say squat so she doesn't seem to want to rock the boat too much with her friends' view of the guy when she was human). Stefan is the big reason that the 2 have kept their distance for so long and with the 'mutual' break up, it was just enough for them to go through with it (although the looming sire bond thing is a punch in the gut now for them). Damon himself is his own problem in relation to SE. Don't take too much offense to me calling Stefan a 'shackle' but yeah, probably a wrong choice of a word. As much as I like Damon as a character, I've never been too fond of the idea that Elena has been the apple of his eye when she was with Stefan so I've always felt with all the 'rejection'/assurance that Stefan was her man, he should have moved onto another girl (it's well known I've liked him with Rose and even Andie but for plot purposes, because Elena was the end goal for the guy, those 2 had to die to keep him 'open' and constantly making moves with her. I've never liked the idea that he was with these girls, specifically Rose who understood the situation, and still pined for Elena. Meh).

I really do take the use of the word 'Brother' lightly in this show. The way these 2 treat each other is shameful. Bonding moments are completely undone within the very same episode or the next so I don't put much stock in them.

We talked about it in one of the DE threads but although Stefan has a right to be mad about hearing the news about the 2 having sex, he cannot lay that on Damon & Elena for not telling him. The 2 were trying to get some things in order and it was 1-2 days at the most. The blame for hearing that in the manner he did was all because of that loud mouth Caroline. Damon & Elena wanted to pick a better time to tell him but with Elena's slip up to Caroline, what did you think that little blonde was going to do with that info? So Stefan hearing it from someone else isn't really a fault of the 2 that he *SHOULD* have heard it from (maybe slightly Elena's fault for slipping up in the first place). He's hearing it from someone without all the details. He broke the news to Damon that they had broken up but with the sire bond stuff in play, I don't think even he expected the 2 to jump that far ahead so soon after they broke up. I think he was expecting them to be up to their usual flirting/hanging together/arguments that they've always had while he and Elena was together.

Caroline piling all this stuff on him isn't helping the guy. He's dealing with trying to find the cure and keep Klaus as leashed as possible, had to try and deal with Jeremy & the Hunter stuff and when he gets home, he's got Caroline throwing all this relationship/Elena stuff in his face about Elena being at the lakehouse with Damon when they were supposed to be apart, that they had sex, about the sire bond stuff and so on. She's really going to break the guy emotionally and mentally with all this crap as if he needs it after distancing himself from Elena (since he already feels bad enough about her being a Vampire and wanting to fix that).

Human Elena would have never sprung on Damon the day after though. I do believe that she would have had a cool down period before even attempting anything with Damon, and sex wouldn't be one of those things. I think she'd ease into it and keep an eye on Stefan to see how it's impacting him (and should ignore someone like Caroline). As a Vampire still though, there should be some semblance of that human guilt so I think that's where a lot of questioning comes in about the sire bond.

I still think it's a road Elena should have never traveled down and just as well, that one of the Brothers should have had the grace to bow out of and not mess around. Elena & Stefan were a couple first so Damon should have been the one. If the chance ever arose afterwards (after a break up), fine but the way he's hung around Elena has always kind of bothered me. Rose had an impact on him and I think if she was still alive, she'd be more than just a 'distraction' (I do hate the term being used in relation to other girls Damon has a relationship with). I think Rose would have been a nice step for him *AWAY* from Elena (he has stuff he didn't tell her about him & Rose) and Elena & Stefan could have gotten/kept things on track (Elena seeing Damon happy with another woman and in love may have put any other thoughts out of her mind) and by effect, Damon & Stefan could probably put a lot of their crap behind them with Elena 'out from between them'.

But that's an entirely different show with competent writing for couples.

EDIT: Post is long My bad. I just don't really like the triangle *AT ALL* in this show. Too much jerking around and guilt to go around. If Elena hadn't 'committed' to Stefan early on and if he was in the process of 'courting' her then Damon comes along and she's kind of interested, then I think it would have been more interesting if that approach was taken with the triangle with both Brothers kind of getting to know her on a friendship/romantic interest level instead of one set being a couple, and then one Brother having an interest in his Brother's girlfriend. If both were just interests, I think Elena would be more open/have a few more liberties with having moments with both without too much 'guilt'. Both Brothers would know that the other has an interest in her and it's just be less rage inducing for both of them (I'm trying to get with my Brother's GF and my Brother is trying to steal my GF).

But then we'd have 4 seasons of Elena having 'flings'/moments with both Brothers and who knows how that'd hold up with the fanbase. It'd be a see-saw of which way Elena leans any given season and that would allow the Brothers more freedom with interests of their own while Elena is mainly contained with one of the others for the season. Maybe the show should be less about the 'triangle love/dynamic' and more about Elena's love (or, you know, about the mythology/MF). Damon & Stefan would still be the lead male characters but they don't have to be contained within Elena's story (in other words, find happiness where it may be as thy name of the center of the universe is NOT Elena).

I'm rambling now and added another 2 paragraphs to an already long, nonsensical post

[Deleted]

I see what you are sayng but the blame is on them because (well Elena I guess_ because she told other people. If it was them figuring stuff out then it would be between them. The second she told her friends and really at this point Stefan's friends it was no longer figuring things out it was public knowledge they were keeping from Stefan. Which is hurtful.

[Deleted]

Oh Slash great post by the way! very well thought out and I agree the triangle sucks and I was not a big fan of Rose but I agree with what you are saying about her and Damon. Another person who I thought would have been good for Damon but wasn't at all at the same time was Jules. I thought she was just spunky enough, but yeah circumstances kinda ruined that potential.

[Slash]

Jan 4, 2013 11:59:54 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

I see what you are sayng but the blame is on them because (well Elena I guess_ because she told other people. If it was them figuring stuff out then it would be between them. The second she told her friends and really at this point Stefan's friends it was no longer figuring things out it was public knowledge they were keeping from Stefan. Which is hurtful.

Agreed. Damon told her not to tell/keep it to herself and she let it slip to Caroline, who Stefan was staying with. Elena knew how sensitive that information was and that it was only between her and Damon.

I do believe Elena though thought there was some security in secrets with her best friends. Still, horrible group of friends. The only time they communicate is after the fact or when it causes problems. I think Caroline, as much as she prides herself on being a friend to Stefan, should know how much something like that is going to hurt him and should have kept it to herself and those 2 tell him. I think back to Matt & Jeremy's conversation about the Hunter stuff and that if Jeremy didn't tell Elena, Matt was. That's an acceptable scenario to tell some info in. The 'sex' scenario though is not life or death and should have been left up to the parties involved (Damon & Elena) to disclose to pertaining people or not (Stefan). That was not Caroline's place to drop that info as she's only hurting Stefan more.

If I just broke up with a girl 'mutually' (both seeing it's not working) and my cousin hooked up with her or had sex with her the day after (has to be my cousin or a friend cause my brother rolls the other way), I'd rather *NOT* hear about that info at all to be honest. If I saw the signs in the first place, like Stefan has, I'd expect it but since we broke it off, I'd say it's fair. If the cousin/friend approached me beforehand saying they wanted me to know or asking if it's OK, not my place to give permission. If they didn't, fine. If it's a mutual break up, everyone can do what they want to do at that point. It's not my business anymore what concerns her and if we're doing the 'friends' thing, as a friend, I'm happy that she's happy cause things didn't work out for us (real world logic has no place on this show, I know).

[Slash]

Jan 4, 2013 12:06:47 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

Oh Slash great post by the way! very well thought out and I agree the triangle sucks and I was not a big fan of Rose but I agree with what you are saying about her and Damon. Another person who I thought would have been good for Damon but wasn't at all at the same time was Jules. I thought she was just spunky enough, but yeah circumstances kinda ruined that potential.

I liked Jules and hated her at the same time. I think her and Damon would have been a powder keg if it would have happened. Damon isn't too fond of Werewolves and Jules was an anti-Vampire extremist but I think that if she ever did let it slide one time, and with Damon, I think those 2 would have gotten along more than they would have admitted/shown.

If they had probably looked at each other as the people they were and not as Vampire/Werewolf, they would have been one of the more interesting couples on the show (but I guess that would also steal away the Vampire-Werewolf relationship at the time that belonged to Caroline & Tyler). If Klaus had kept Jules chained up with Caroline & Tyler, I would have loved to have heard the conversation that her and Damon would have since Jules' bite was what led to Rose's death and she offered no sympathy when the guy came and asked her for help/a cure. That moment of kindness would have probably made her ease up to Vampires (not all bad) but I don't like the idea that Damon would have anything going with Jules after what she did cause we've seen how Damon keeps the Rose stuff to himself (Damon slipped up after she died and then when he needed Jeremy to communicate with her).

I just hate how we get to see these dynamics with Damon & other female characters but they don't capitalize on them (or do shortly, and with sex) because of the 'triangle' and that those other female characters get killed off to keep it moving along. Horrible writing.

I've read stuff here and there about Paul wanting new interests for Stefan (not fond of that being Bekah) but being turned down by JP which annoys me. If Stefan had another interest come in (new would be preferable but who knows, maybe there is another girl in his past that met the Ripper, was afraid of him but now sees him as he is now and wants to know him?), it'd give him some relaxation away from all the Elena stuff. Some enjoyment all to himself without having to worry about his 'Brother' (I'm sure both need this).

[Sweetluv4DE]

Oh man was this made because I said I don't feel she should feel guilty?

I didn't say she shouldn't feel sorry or even feel bad. I just don't like guilt. It's a strong emotion that I feel she shouldn't have to feel. IMO

I mean I was the only one in the DE thread and everyone else felt like they understood if she felt guilty.

So I guess this debate is with me? LOL

[Ruby2579]

Jan 4, 2013 14:27:40 GMT -5 Sweetluv4DE said:

Oh man was this made because I said I don't feel she should feel guilty?

I didn't say she shouldn't feel sorry or even feel bad. I just don't like guilt. It's a strong emotion that I feel she shouldn't have to feel. IMO

I mean I was the only one in the DE thread and everyone else felt like they understood if she felt guilty.

So I guess this debate is with me? LOL

NO THE DEBATE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU LOL
WELL NOT PERSONALLY WITH YOU

I just felt this was a discussion that was going on in the DE and since there were so many opinions on stefan in it to bring it out and elaborate and discuss it

Which I think I'm going to start doing time to time just to get overall feedback from both ships, if ya don't mind =)

[Sweetluv4DE]

If you don't mind a good old debate and wont get upset I say GO FOR IT!!! I'm all for a good healthy debate.

I'm actually one of the few on here who don't hate Stefan. I actually like the guy when he's not talking about Damon or pertaining to Elena. I love his scenes with Klaus, Bekah, Bonnie and especially Caroline. I even sometimes enjoy the brothers. Stefan is not my least favorite person on the show. I think the reason he can ruffle my feathers so easily is because I do care somewhat about him.

But anyway you know where I stand in this debate so I don't need to discuss any further. LOL

No guilt.... I hope to God she feels bad and or sorry for the pain she is causing Stefan but not guilty. She made her bed she should be confident and sleep in it. Guilt is more of a sympathy kind of emotion. Stefan doesn't need sympathy. He is not pathetic. He needs empathy. He needs people to understand what he is going through and be there for him. Not sit there and pitty him. Guilt to me is just that. Guilt shows no real emotion toward Stefan.

[Ruby2579]

Jan 4, 2013 16:04:27 GMT -5 Sweetluv4DE said:

If you don't mind a good old debate and wont get upset I say GO FOR IT!!! I'm all for a good healthy debate.

I'm actually one of the few on here who don't hate Stefan. I actually like the guy when he's not talking about Damon or pertaining to Elena. I love his scenes with Klaus, Bekah, Bonnie and especially Caroline. I even sometimes enjoy the brothers. Stefan is not my least favorite person on the show. I think the reason he can ruffle my feathers so easily is because I do care somewhat about him.

But anyway you know where I stand in this debate so I don't need to discuss any further. LOL

No guilt.... I hope to God she feels bad and or sorry for the pain she is causing Stefan but not guilty. She made her bed she should be confident and sleep in it. Guilt is more of a sympathy kind of emotion. Stefan doesn't need sympathy. He is not pathetic. He needs empathy. He needs people to understand what he is going through and be there for him. Not sit there and pitty him. Guilt to me is just that. Guilt shows no real emotion toward Stefan.

but Guilty and feeling sorry is kind of the same but also different.

If she felt sorry for him wouldn't that be more pathetic and for her to pity him/.

i rather have her feel guilty to an extent. I don't want her out of guilt to go back with Stefan either I just think she should feel some type of guilt and lil hurt for hurting him

[Deleted]

That yes Elena should be able to trust her girlfriends, but she should not have put them n that position, espcially since she knows Caroline has been close with Stefan and that Stefan is staying with her. It puts Caroline in a very awful position because she is friends with both. So if she did not want Caroline to tell Stefan (which is very Caroline I mean how did she think she wouldn't?) then she should have kept it between her and Damon. It was selfish for her to tell her friends and it was selfish of Caroline to Stefan, but I think Caroline is more understandable given her situation (imo)