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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 8:53:54 GMT -5
We've been talking about this subject in various other threads so I am making one in debates specifically for it because I know it's controversial and moving the posts from other places here. It stems off some of the other subjects we're currently discussing.
Julie Plec said about Stefan before season 4 started: “I don’t think ‘good’ Stefan is ‘real’ Stefan. I think Stefan is very damaged, and he’s got some deep darkness and, within that, a beautiful soul with what humanity he can muster. I think until the end of the series, the darker Stefan will always be the truthful Stefan.”
Well, there you have it from the horse's mouth. Stefan has never been the person he presented himself as being and now we are seeing the sharp contrast to that when Elena is out of the equation. He may not have accepted who he is but that doesn't change who he is.
I would even go further and say that Damon isn't who he thinks he is or who we thought he was back in season one. We see that through flashbacks of who he was over the years and he's much different. How do you explain that? His life experience hardened him, losing Katherine, losing his brother (basically), losing his life, losing his family, losing everything. He had nothing, nothing to hang onto his humanity with, to point to so he could say, this is a reason to hold on. So he lost alot of himself. Elena recognized that almost immediately he was not who he seemed to be, that he had shut off that part of himself that caused him pain and she has slowly brought him back to his true self, but it's been a painful journey. She isn't trying to make him Stefan. She's trying to make him Damon.
So, I would conclude that Damon is in fact, 'the good brother or at least a good brother' like Meredith told him, and out of the two of them and their inherent personalities, he is the one who will do the right thing most often, in my opinion. Stefan hid his dark side but it is there lurking inside of him and right now he's having trouble disguising it.
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Post by mysticangel on Jan 28, 2013 9:30:43 GMT -5
Julie Plec said about Stefan before season 4 started: “I don’t think ‘good’ Stefan is ‘real’ Stefan. I think Stefan is very damaged, and he’s got some deep darkness and, within that, a beautiful soul with what humanity he can muster. I think until the end of the series, the darker Stefan will always be the truthful Stefan.”Well, there you have it from the horse's mouth. Stefan has never been the person he presented himself as being and now we are seeing the sharp contrast to that when Elena is out of the equation. He may not have accepted who he is but that doesn't change who he is. I would even go further and say that Damon isn't who he thinks he is or who we thought he was back in season one. We see that through flashbacks of who he was over the years and he's much different. How do you explain that? His life experience hardened him, losing Katherine, losing his brother (basically), losing his life, losing his family, losing everything. He had nothing, nothing to hang onto his humanity with, to point to so he could say, this is a reason to hold on. So he lost alot of himself. Elena recognized that almost immediately he was not who he seemed to be, that he had shut off that part of himself that caused him pain and she has slowly brought him back to his true self, but it's been a painful journey. She isn't trying to make him Stefan. She's trying to make him Damon. So, I would conclude that Damon is in fact, 'the good brother or at least a good brother' like Meredith told him, and out of the two of them and their inherent personalities, he is the one who will do the right thing most often, in my opinion. Stefan hid his dark side but it is there lurking inside of him and right now he's having trouble disguising it. This, for me, brings up the question of what happened to Stefan to make him so 'damaged', as JP put it. Was it something Katherine did in compelling Stefan, a birth defect, a spell or a product of vampirism that only shows up very rarely? (The show has never discussed what it is that actually causes a vampire to become a ripper, it has only mentioned that rippers lose control of their emotions in the process). I'm wondering if there is something in the originals' origins which occasionally sprouts side effects, like sire bonds and turning into a Ripper.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 9:36:01 GMT -5
I kind of see the Ripper as a byproduct of his own suppression. It's like if you go on a restrictive diet and you eat just celery for weeks, you will begin to feel like you are going nuts and you will begin to crave the worst of foods. You'll dream about it. Eventually you might lose it and just stuff your face with everything bad for you because you did it wrong! You dieted the wrong way. You made it impossible to maintain control. That's what Stefan does with his vampirism. Combine that with his particular personality type, the type to be in denial and to try to be perfect bottling up all the negative aspects of himself as he tries to control himself and it's a recipe for a disaster when he finally does lose control.
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Post by mysticangel on Jan 28, 2013 11:40:36 GMT -5
I kind of see the Ripper as a byproduct of his own suppression. It's like if you go on a restrictive diet and you eat just celery for weeks, you will begin to feel like you are going nuts and you will begin to crave the worst of foods. You'll dream about it. Eventually you might lose it and just stuff your face with everything bad for you because you did it wrong! You dieted the wrong way. You made it impossible to maintain control. That's what Stefan does with his vampirism. Combine that with his particular personality type, the type to be in denial and to try to be perfect bottling up all the negative aspects of himself as he tries to control himself and it's a recipe for a disaster when he finally does lose control. Didn't Stefan say, though, that all of the things he'd tried were enough to sate his hunger and even some of his cravings? He's drunk his fair share of things that weren't bunnies/deer/skunks. I think he said it when he was talking to Lexi back before Damon staked her.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 12:45:11 GMT -5
Just more denial as we have seen he will still relapse into the Ripper.
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Post by mysticangel on Jan 28, 2013 12:53:19 GMT -5
Just more denial as we have seen he will still relapse into the Ripper. The thing is, I'm not entirely certain Stefan's willpower (or lack of it) is what triggers the Ripper inside of him. Think of it as being more like a biological or hereditary trait. Two twins can have an almost identical set of genes, but yet one develops down syndrome while the other is born perfectly healthy. Klaus has no shortage of willpower. He's got nothing but willpower. Apart from him, we haven't seen another ripper on the show. That's what has me thinking that the Ripper part of Stefan is tied into something else, just like not all vampires wind up sire bound *assuming the sire bond is even real* to their makers. There is also the fact that Stefan was more open and more honest with Lexi than he was with anyone else on the show prior to Lexi being staked.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 13:05:34 GMT -5
Maybe, and I wouldn't be surprised if the show went that route as if Stefan isn't responsible for his actions but I wouldn't like it if that was their choice. Damon has had to take full responsibility and blame for his actions and learn and grow from it and I want Stefan to have to do the same. It would be a cop out to just say it was an Oooops of nature, but it is a theory that is plausable.
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Post by mysticangel on Jan 28, 2013 13:20:53 GMT -5
I'm not saying Stefan shouldn't be held accountable for his actions, as he has certainly taken a couple that would have had me go headhunting the old fashioned way. For the record, Damon and Elena also have. I am, however, pointing out that there is possibly more to the Ripper side of Stefan, and in what triggers it, than what has been presented to us so far. It might be a combination of both genetics and lack of willpower, or it could be due to something Katherine did, or maybe even more complicated than that. The show does need to finish exploring the Ripper, as it is a major part of Stefan's character and they don't seem to have any intention of cutting Stefan's character out of the show. But the Ripper isn't all there is to Stefan, and darkness/bad things can dwell even in the side/s to the character that aren't ripper related. I think it's part of the reason we're starting to see Stefan do and say some things he would never have contemplated back in season one. I do like the fact that they're starting to wise up to the fact that they can't expect or write the character as being in one mode constantly, and putting a couple of conflicting motivations in based on different 'moral' ideas would go a long way towards making Stefan a little more mysterious and presentable to the audience. Klaus is due to reveal some information about Stefan in the next episode, perhaps they're heading back towards the Ripper related side of him without having Stefan switch into Ripper mode? Someone on the writing staff does seem to be slowly taking the character of Stefan and adding layers. And now that I have completely derailed this thread, I'll try to return it to the D/E discussion in the next post.
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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 28, 2013 15:13:57 GMT -5
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Post by Ravenwing on Jan 28, 2013 16:02:08 GMT -5
This has always been one of my main problems with the character of Stefan and his romance with Elena. Their relationship was so childish to me because Elena fell in love with him in about 2 seconds after knowing practically nothing about him. I'm so happy that Stefan had that line in the last episode about how this is who he is when he isn't in love with her...which just proves that the Stefan she met and fell in love with was nothing more than a front. He only wanted her to see the good in him, and who can blame him? The only problem is, it was dishonest and you can't truly be in love with someone you don't really know.
Damon on the other hand I believe was using his negative attributes to protect himself and his emotions to a degree. Elena has been able to chip away at his defenses over time and little by little the Damon who wants to be good has emerged. The difference is that Elena has seen Damon at his absolute worst and his best, and she loves him anyway. She's had all of this time to get to know him, and she fell for the person he really is. Sire bond or no, no one can possibly deny that she had feelings for him before she turned. I believe that she was in love with him and didn't want to admit it to herself or anyone else because it wasn't "right." But however strong her feelings were, they were there and they were based on truth.
Even Elena I don't think was really herself at the beginning of the show...she was reeling from the death of her parents and even confessed to Matt that she was drawn to Stefan because he couldn't die...he was safe. Before Elena lost her parents, she wanted passion and adventure. When she was with Stefan it was because she was afraid and needed someone to pick her back up...someone she could count on. Before she was turned her original personality was beginning to shine through, and her vampirism magnified it. Now she's the person she was always supposed to be.
The reason I can never get behind Stelena (well other than the fact that I think that Stefan is a sanctimonious a-hole who gets a free pass on everything while Damon gets thrown under the bus) is because their romance and relationship was just so rushed. They didn't really know each other...they didn't take the time to get to know each other...and Stefan has been hiding aspects of his personality from Elena all along. To me, insta love is not a story. Two people who are drawn to each other over time, argue and make up, see the worst and best of each other and fall in love along the way...that is the REAL story.
That is why ever since the beginning of this show Delena has been the story to me and Stelena has been nothing more than a roadblock they've had to overcome. I'm not saying that's how the writers intended it or how it's going to turn out, but that's how I've always seen it. Delena is the story (and it seems that LJ Smith would agree with that).
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Post by Slash on Jan 28, 2013 16:11:39 GMT -5
Stefan is a weird one to me. He seems to not want any of that 'darkness' to show through, probably because he fears the Ripper getting out as well (Lexi's work giving him this fear?) but I think that's not exactly healthy for him. Trying to be 'good' and what people want/expect all the time? Come on now. He can have an edge to him without losing it and I'm hoping at some point going forward, we get that. I hope we get something like what we currently have, just eased up a bit off the gas. He seems to only be really confrontational with certain individuals (Damon, Klaus, Bekah) and I think that's him being 'normal'. The way he's gone off on Jeremy & Matt most recently, I think is normal. He can be nice a lot of the time as we've seen but I think the way he's been to someone like Caroline is 'overkill' on that front. All the stuff she came telling him, did no good for him and I wish he had let some of that 'normal' come out and told her to shut up/he doesn't want her worrying about *HIS* problems or what goes on between Elena and the 'Salvatores', so she should stop passing him these 'secrets'.
I guess I just want him to be a bit eased up on his usual attitude towards the aforementioned people he's heavy handed with (not making every attempt to 'cut' someone with words) but more 'upfront' with everyone where needed. I think that would be who Stefan is as a character but that's just how I picture him when he's not being in one 'mode' or trying to appease others.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 28, 2013 16:25:29 GMT -5
You know what Emily kinda said it to him... “Even in death, your heart is pure, Stefan. That will be your curse” - Emily Bennett
I think who he is as a vampire is blood. He wants blood has to have blood and needs blood. But his heart is pure and like Julie said he has a beautiful soul. I think those two things are constantly battling. When he lets go and lets vamperisim take over he becomes the ripper but when he is on the bunny diet and trying to be the "good" Stefan you see more of the pure heart/beautiful soul. But now that he is a vampire both are a part of him. You cant try and hid in the light when there is so much darkness inside of you. (another JP quote) So essentially Stefan has two parts to him. There is no middle ground. He either tries to be good and fails like all of his relapses he's had and has gone ripper or he loses himself in the blood completely.
We have never been introduced to Stefan who uses blood as a means of nutrition/survival. He needs to fix his issues by accepting both the dark and the light. he doesn't know how to survive on blood without bingeing. Stefan may have the best intentions in life and he may honestly be a good guy but he is also a dark guy and he has hidden it inside of him and until he comes to terms with who he is he wont be able to live with both and find a happy medium.
You cant deny the self of you that has an addiction. You have to medicate, therapy, deal etc etc with it before you can say ok I'm fee of it and healed and even then most people still go to AA because well it's still a part of who they are so it's a constant battle to deal with.
Stefan is that good kid who got great grades and then goes off to college and starts partying and loves college life because all he ever did was study... He does drugs and then now is an addict. Everyone wonders how this happened...he was such a good kid. But inside he suppressed his want or desire to have fun to get the work done and now he is messed up. He has to go to rehab and come to terms with both of those people without using again.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 28, 2013 16:41:11 GMT -5
I think this is why we see Stefan come off so harshly at times... What he said to Matt and even how he said Jeremy wasn't his problem. Also when he drove Elena down Whickery Bridge and fed her his blood , how he has treated Rebekah cruelly at times, how he can be a jerk to Damon and this recent thing with Elena. Because he suppresses that darkness so much we see cracks in his personality. These cracks come forth with all those examples I gave. It's like snapping and then feeling bad about it later. It's not healthy. We wonder how can he be the good brother and do this and say this and I honestly think it's because he has so much darkness suppressed that when ignited by a certain circumstance that can set him off, he goes off. I also think that the cracks allow him to do or say what he really wants to say but doesn't quite know how to say it without coming off smug or jerky.
I don't know... Just my point of view.
Like the darkness sometimes doesn't give him a filter. He doesn't know how to react or say things without doing it the way someone else would without hurting someones feelings or coming off mean.
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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 28, 2013 17:23:53 GMT -5
Agreed Slash n Sweets you have all made great points...
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Post by kat on Jan 30, 2013 2:58:19 GMT -5
This has always been one of my main problems with the character of Stefan and his romance with Elena. Their relationship was so childish to me because Elena fell in love with him in about 2 seconds after knowing practically nothing about him. I'm so happy that Stefan had that line in the last episode about how this is who he is when he isn't in love with her...which just proves that the Stefan she met and fell in love with was nothing more than a front. He only wanted her to see the good in him, and who can blame him? The only problem is, it was dishonest and you can't truly be in love with someone you don't really know. Damon on the other hand I believe was using his negative attributes to protect himself and his emotions to a degree. Elena has been able to chip away at his defenses over time and little by little the Damon who wants to be good has emerged. The difference is that Elena has seen Damon at his absolute worst and his best, and she loves him anyway. She's had all of this time to get to know him, and she fell for the person he really is. Sire bond or no, no one can possibly deny that she had feelings for him before she turned. I believe that she was in love with him and didn't want to admit it to herself or anyone else because it wasn't "right." But however strong her feelings were, they were there and they were based on truth. Even Elena I don't think was really herself at the beginning of the show...she was reeling from the death of her parents and even confessed to Matt that she was drawn to Stefan because he couldn't die...he was safe. Before Elena lost her parents, she wanted passion and adventure. When she was with Stefan it was because she was afraid and needed someone to pick her back up...someone she could count on. Before she was turned her original personality was beginning to shine through, and her vampirism magnified it. Now she's the person she was always supposed to be. The reason I can never get behind Stelena (well other than the fact that I think that Stefan is a sanctimonious a-hole who gets a free pass on everything while Damon gets thrown under the bus) is because their romance and relationship was just so rushed. They didn't really know each other...they didn't take the time to get to know each other...and Stefan has been hiding aspects of his personality from Elena all along. To me, insta love is not a story. Two people who are drawn to each other over time, argue and make up, see the worst and best of each other and fall in love along the way...that is the REAL story. That is why ever since the beginning of this show Delena has been the story to me and Stelena has been nothing more than a roadblock they've had to overcome. I'm not saying that's how the writers intended it or how it's going to turn out, but that's how I've always seen it. Delena is the story (and it seems that LJ Smith would agree with that). BRAVO!!!!
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