Stefan & Ripper

[Slash]

This topic is kind of spurred by me watching Buffy reruns and a more recent comment in another thread about 'Stefan not being himself' during a particular time.

Do you consider Stefan and the Ripper persona one in the same, 2 personalities that just haven't been able to meld after becoming a Vampire and a sign of 'lack of control' (or the best way for Stefan to save/salvage the part of him that he considers truly 'him'; or one 'unleashed' after the transitioning opened that door) or do you consider them essentially 2 separate entities sharing the same body, one taking up residence/created after the turning?

In BTVS, Angel had 2 personalities: Angel, who had a soul and felt guilt/remorse/other 'human' feelings and 'Angelus', who lacked a soul and was actually considered the most evil Vampire in history (with other demons higher on the totem pole even commenting on/recognizing how evil he was). From looking at his Wiki profile, it does seem at times that the 2 were considered 2 entities sharing the same body (saw something mentioned about a mind wipe but one personality not being affected by it cause it wasn't present at the time so they do remember what happened). On the flip side of this, you have Spike who, with or without a soul, for the most part, remained the same. Even though he was in the running for Angelus' title, he seemed to be more middle-ground.

Now with Stefan, he has this Ripper persona: a monster that hides within. Someone without a care for life and rips his victims apart. Someone who was such a piece of work, the Original Klaus, who has a reputation of his own of being a monster, took notice. However, on the opposite side of the coin, you have 'Stefan': good guy, likes to help people, has the whole human guilt/remorse/ thing going and as a safety to others and to keep himself out of trouble, Emily gave him the whole 'pure of heart' talk or whatever, etc.. He sticks to animal blood because of his 'condition'.

Stefan hates everything the Ripper stands for: the senseless violence and the sheer overkill of it all. The Ripper hates Stefan's methods/approach: helping people, feeling guilty about what he does, sees him as weak, etc.. This is walking a similar line to Angel/Angelus with one personality despising the very existence of the other but both sharing the same body and wanting to stay in control.

Do you consider the Ripper a part of Stefan that he hasn't accepted, but very much his own actions/responsibility or do you consider the Ripper to be a by-product created by his turning into a Vampire and whose actions Stefan can't be blamed for due to his underlying nature as a Vampire to feed on blood and maybe falling victim to feeding on too much and losing control, thus releasing the Ripper?

On a side note, was the Ripper ever explained in detail? The condition itself, such as why it happens (just random?)? Stefan, and I'm assuming a few others throughout history, are victim to this and can't seem to grasp the control needed to keep it under wraps and can only do a patchwork on it similar to the way Lexi did. This need to feed/kill that overwrites the good of that person has to be tied to something, right?

Random-ish thread...

EDIT: Yeah yeah, 2 different universes, 2 sets of rules, 2 different kinds of Vampires, etc. when it comes to TVD and BTVS.

[Ruby2579]

I like to think of the ripper as his alter ego in a sense. The ripper is not who stefan truly is. The ripper came about to me because of the vampirism. It's the person he becomes when his humanity switch is off.

I don't consider the ripper to truly be him. Because when someone becomes an alcoholic g Thats not who the person truly is. It's the person they become when they let the alcohol control them.

It's the same thing with stefan and the blood but the thing is its not like alcohol. And that's what stefan and Lexi were treating it as.

What stefan needs to do is come to terms with the ripper and learn how to control his blood lust and not let it control him.

Thats the difference with Damon.Damon learned how to enjoy the vampire part of him without letting the blood control him. He flipped the switch in his time but never let the blood control him. And that's y Damon would be the ideal person to help stefan

[Slash]

Still pissed that the swept Damon helping Stefan get control under the rug. Damon pretty much put himself out there to help Stefan and come next episode, nothing -_- Damon told Stefan that he was all he had and Stefan was coming off the Ripper high so if both of them had put Elena aside at that moment, it would have been perfect for them to get closer and to also squash/get the Ripper thing under control.

Looking at it as alcoholism, what if treating it as such is the problem? Have they tried tackling it with Stefan walking the line? Half 'normal', half 'blood fueled/Ripper' and seeing if that spot is perfect for him in gaining some control instead of one extreme or the other? Hiding one personality from the other really isn't working at all for the guy and a century & a half later, it's time to try a few new approaches. Hate to go for the compulsion thing again but it would probably take some work from one of the Originals to put in 'blocks'. Keep him from going one extreme or the other and kind of keeps him 'centered'. If he wants to do something that's native to the Ripper, he'd hesitate and push back to a more 'middle-ground' response and vice versa.

I'd like to think that Stefan & the Ripper are one and the same, just not wanting to co-exist for whatever reason or not having attempted to try co-existing. Klaus is a mess himself but he seems to have some semblance of being middle-ground if needed (although he leans more evil), as have the other Originals (Elijah is the only one to seem really grounded). Other Vampires we've met on the show all seem to be 'rooted' near the middle or leaning somewhat in one direction but not ever so extremely like Stefan who is one direction or the other at any given time.

I really wish they had tackled the control issue he has last season with Damon, in full.

[Doppelgänger]

I believe it's a part of who he is, the part he represses because he finds it unacceptable. Stefan is very judgemental of others and also of himself. He expects himself to behave a certain way and anything outside of that he shoves off into a box which explodes in his face every, what is it, 50 years of so? He becomes the Ripper and wreaks havoc on everyone in his near vicinity that is human. He becomes everything he hates, everything he repressed, but it is still him, it is still the parts of him he found unacceptable and set aside. It's either going to take what Ruby said, him somehow learning to deal with the blood lust so he never goes off on a Ripper binge or if the problem really is more deeply seated in his personality then he will need to integrate both parts into a more balanced whole. Lexi did mention balance and I do think that is the root of his problem.

I also didn't get the impression Angel/Angelus were two different people just that Angelus didn't have a soul so when Angel lost his soul he became Angelus. That's how it seemed to be explained unless I missed something.

[Doppelgänger]

I like your idea Slash of being compelled by an Original but I think it's still a bandaid approach and too easy. Stefan is the one who needs to get the control of himself. So far it's been other people outside himself trying to help him but he needs to be able to do it or it's not going to stick. He needs to accept that part of himself and maybe that will be the hardest part of the whole thing for him, but I think that's really his journey, learning to accept and love himself the good and the bad.

[Slash]

Jan 20, 2013 15:38:39 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

I also didn't get the impression Angel/Angelus were two different people just that Angelus didn't have a soul so when Angel lost his soul he became Angelus. That's how it seemed to be explained unless I missed something.

This is what I was reading and it's all interesting to me to the point where I want to watch BTVS & Angel from the beginning:

It takes a few moments for Angel to remember Angelus' actions whenever the curse takes effect.[6][33] Angel once reverted to Angelus without his curse being broken, due to having been secretly fed a happy pill that, while under its effects, made him experience perfect happiness.[134] The two are indeed shown to be separate personas, both struggling within Angel's mind for control,[26] with Drusilla noting that Angelus is always whispering to Angel in the back of his mind to encourage him to submit to his vampiric instincts, although Angel rejects this idea and claims that he is used to ignoring what people have to say to him.[95] In support of this, Angelus appeared genuinely scared for the first time in his existence when Jasmine threatened to return him to his prison within Angel's mind, where he would be forced to watch forever. When all reference to the Beast was erased from this dimension, Angel was also affected, while Angelus was not, as he did not technically exist when the spell was cast. Further evidence can be found in the fact that Angelus considers himself a separate being to Angel, often referring to Angel as though he were a separate person.

BTVS Wikia

So it's either as such or it's both Angel & Angelus wanting to give themselves more separation from the other by actually believing the other to be an entirely different person. Guess watching it as on the show would give me a better context. It's Spike that makes this awkward somewhat:

Angel significantly contrasts with Spike, the other vampire with a soul, whose personality appears to remain fundamentally the same with or without his soul, barring his soulled self feeling somewhat guiltier about his past than his soulless self would.

[Slash]

Jan 20, 2013 15:47:30 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

I like your idea Slash of being compelled by an Original but I think it's still a bandaid approach and too easy. Stefan is the one who needs to get the control of himself. So far it's been other people outside himself trying to help him but he needs to be able to do it or it's not going to stick. He needs to accept that part of himself and maybe that will be the hardest part of the whole thing for him, but I think that's really his journey, learning to accept and love himself the good and the bad.

Training wheels. Give him some sort of basis of what the 'line' is and when the gang starts to see as much, the 'blocks' are removed and they can see if he can freely 'stop' himself from going one extreme or the other. Of course though, he needs to accept the Ripper. There is an obvious fear there with the way he was trying to plant it in Elena's mind (projecting his own worst fear on her transition/becoming a Vampire).

Stefan does need a push to get him to even take that action and I do think that push will come in the form of Elena. Why it hasn't yet is beyond me. Maybe this road to the cure and his current state will be what will set him down that road. I just think he does need some help in getting to/past some of these points. I think another Vampire probably does need to sit him down and lock him in his own mind with the Ripper so they can talk it out (the whole dream/subconscious thing) or whatever.

[Doppelgänger]

Maybe losing her will be the 'push.' I mean why change anything if everything is going your way?

[Slash]

To better oneself? Even before Elena came into the picture, he's been keeping to himself so you would think it'd be one of those things at the top of his list to do/get under control regardless of how life is going cause ultimately, it's kind of holding him back. Wouldn't he be happy one day to say he had a dark past with the Ripper but now, he's beat his demon? Wouldn't that be something to be proud of and wear as a badge? No one being able to taunt him about the Ripper because he can openly and proudly say that he's killed/done away with that part of him and he acknowledges the darkness he was wading through at one point in his life and the lie he lived with?

That would be a huge character/self-esteem boost for him, whether things are going his way or not when he decides to do it. Yeah, being at his lowest point would be a bigger push but having Elena in his corner before could have been just as much: I have this great girl, I think it's time I open up to her about my past and finally deal with it with her support. Hell, my Brother is back in my life too for the first time in a long time so I have twice the support. Time to get this checked off my list.

If he fails, he can say he tried. Now is the best time to do it with the support he's got around him cause in the case he does fail, he's got people there to push him back up and help him give it another go/keep him from falling as far as he falls regularly when he goes off the deep end.

[Ruby2579]

I just think that the issues and story plots in this show have been soo on top of eachother they don't have time to be worrying about this stuff haha.

But stefan confessed this to caroline in the beginning of the season. He said I want to enjoy being a vampire with Elena without losing control of myself. He said that Damon was suppose to help him but they had their fallout and if caroline was willing to take the role so hes kind of already on the road of trying to control himself or learning how not to let it become him

[Slash]

I think that's the problem too. Between the Originals/the Cure/Silas/etc. and the triangle stuff, some stuff gets overlooked for certain characters in favor of other angles pertaining to the overall aforementioned story points. Sucks for some characters.

You know how I feel about Caroline and I would have loved if Damon (and Elena) were the ones to help him through it. If all 3 of them or just the Brothers put the triangle stuff on the back burner to get Stefan the help he needs and wants. The plot in this show is so meddling at times though. The fallout didn't need to happen between the Brothers with the way Damon came out and said Stefan was all he had. It's just the plot/writers wanting to keep the 'triangle' problem causing, well, problems, mainly for the Brothers' relationship. Damon was on board, Stefan was looking for help and it was a wash in the end.

[Ruby2579]

I know :/ atleast it got brought up again and not be like it never happened

[pixiestyx]

Hmm. It’s an interesting thought and one I should have thought of considering in the pilot one of my thoughts of Stefan was “a poor man’s Angel”. It’s been a while since I’ve watched BTVS or Angel but I think they were separate personalities; when Angel lost his soul Angelus came out. I’m not sure their personalities could have ever been merged. Spike was always more pragmatic. In S2 he sided with Buffy because it made sense to him to have people running around like “happy meals” rather than a demon ruling over the place. He saw the bigger picture. Plus he had the chip in his head in S4 so he couldn’t hurt people.

TVD vampires are different since it’s not a matter of a having a soul or not. It’s a switch turned on or off. It’s very much a choice (though if we believe Rose, not really a choice since you have to pretend once you get old enough). I’ve always felt that being a Ripper is part of who Stefan is he just never has accepted it or learned to control it. Stefan, from the start, turned off his humanity. And then Lexi messed Stefan up terribly with her bunny diet instead of actually teaching him control.

Elena had the right idea in S2: have him drink a little bit of her blood every day so he could learn control (though to this day I laugh at the tiny pin prick of blood she was feeding him even after that first time). He seemed to be doing fine so I don’t know why he stopped. He needs to stop this animal blood stuff because it is clearly not working.

He needs to accept both sides of himself until he's stuck on this endless loop.

[Slash]

I feel like Stefan is kind of in the spirit of Angel but missing some components that made that character great (or isn't being developed well enough with the elements introduced for him). That's the way I think of him in comparison at least. Spike is just as interesting reading over his profile (a 'paradox' to BTVS Vampires, loves a fight regardless of who, does genuinely like certain humans, etc.).

So Stefan is screwed? Between shutting it off on his own from the start and Lexi altering the 'normal Vampire diet' for him, he's got no/little idea of where to start with control? He's either doing long stints in the Ripper phase gorging on human blood for a decade+ or he's on animal diet for decades+ before once again going back to the gorging on human blood diet. Seem familiar? One extreme or the other.

Has he ever tried to dilute the human blood with animal blood? 3/4ths deer blood, 1/4th human blood and steadily increase the portion of the human blood till he's not going haywire and can have a regular number of meals each day without feeling the need to gorge.

There really seems like numerous solutions for the guy but he's not taking them, nor the chances.

[Doppelgänger]

I don't think Stefan is anything like Angel and like you said they are two different worlds, so different mythology/rules. Although I was a Spuffy fan in the end.

I didn't watch much of Angel so maybe some of this about him being two personalities came out in that because I didn't see it/hear it in Buffy.