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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 19:33:00 GMT -5
I honestly care little for Elena and the trouble she causes, by actions or just by some weird proxy effect (friends want to help her, new baddy wants to kidnap her, she's the key to something, etc.) but she's more of a detriment to Stefan's character than anyone. He needs some distance. Although she's done some good for Damon, I didn't like all the pining he did earlier on and the current "lets get on board Klaus' plan" bs that happened in the past episode. Yeah, she had Stefan acting 'good' but he shouldn't be lying/fronting that entire time just for her benefit. She has to like him for who he is and by some miracle, if she forces him to change or the good to shine more, more power to the relationship but for him to have to keep up an image is just wrong and tiring for him I'm sure. Plus, there is always Katherine. Sure, she messed up the Salvatores' lives royally but put her with either of the brothers and I'm more than entertained by an interest that has some 'bite' and can put her love in his place (kind of why I like Bekah and liked Rose). I have trouble understanding why Elena is always to blame for how Stefan behaved (or either of the Salvatores ). Elena cannot control how Stefan or anyone acts acts, and I think it's unfair to put any blame on her or, say that she was somehow detrimental to him. Elena didn't make Stefan the way he was, he practically forced his way into her life under the false pretense that he was this good guy vampire who would never hurt a soul. This was Stefan BEFORE Elena knew him. So why does she constantly get blamed for him choosing to be this person? It's Stefan's fault, if he wasn't partly dishonest about who he was in the first place, then she would have no reason to expect him to behave like a good guy. If you meet someone and they lead you to believe that they're something that they're not, it's not your fault if you expect them to conduct themselves accordingly. So I don't get why people say he's done this just for Elena's benefit, or that she has Stefan "acting good." She's the one who's been mislead by Stefan because Stefan decided he wasn't going to be honest about who he was, so why is Elena the villain here for expecting him to act the way he presented himself? And Stefan's being "good" was not for Elena's benefit either, it was for his own benefit, because he wanted to be with her, or have her in his life for his own reasons and he'd do whatever he had to do to make that happen, even pretend to be this person that he wasn't. In my opinion, Elena is the one who's been wronged here, she was lead on in a relationship with someone who was not honest about himself, and she ended up falling for this guy that didn't really exist (at least not really). That's the obvious conclusion on my end, I'm not really sure why Elena would be even remotely to blame for Stefan carrying on this charade of the good vampire boyfriend, when he introduced himself as such in the first place. What was she supposed to think? I agree with you on Stefan. I don't think Elena made Stefan the way he was or had any part in that. I think he made himself that way to mold himself to what he thought she wanted, though. I will say however, as much as I love Elena, that she did try to change Damon. It was for the good, but she did try to change him and didn't accept who he was for a while. It was in season 3 that she realized she had been doing that to him and stopped doing it, so kudos to her for recognizing it. Part of that was because Damon pointed it out to her, but part of it was also self realization. He accepted her for who she was no matter what and she realized she hadn't been returning the sentiment. That's one of the things I love about DE. They grow. They change. They learn from each other and they become better. |
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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 28, 2013 19:36:19 GMT -5
Well as a Stefan Fan speaking for myself not for all Stefan Fans, Im ok with what he said because i know he didnt mean it and that there was some truth behind it..Stefan is still in love with Elena but its true we really dont know who Stefan is or was when he wasnt with Elena. Like I said previously We were introduced to Stefan as the Stefan who was in Love with Elena. Through Flashbacks/Season 3 we were able to see who Stefan is as a Ripper but we have never seen Stefan Single so its something im looking forward to see. Doesnt mean hes Fake In My eyes because I know in your eyes Stefan will always be Fake but its just another Layer of Stefan we will get to know.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 19:43:56 GMT -5
Well if he's not real, if that wasn't who he is when he isn't with her, then he's been a fake. Honestly if what we're seeing now is the real Stefan, I think I'd take the fake one. His version of smug control freak is a huge turn off.
I mean honestly how many personalities does this guy have or does he just become a chameleon depending on the situation? I'm completely confused by who the hell Stefan really is, thus the topic I made named that. I honestly do not know who he is after 3+ years of watching the show which is pretty remarkable that he can again act completely different and not be the ripper this time, not be compelled this time, have no excuses this time and he's still different.
How can Elena even know if Stefan is someone she'd want to be with if she doesn't know who he is and that's basically what he told her taht she doesn't know who is he is when he's not in love with her.
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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 28, 2013 20:03:48 GMT -5
Doppel you also said you could careless who Stefan is lol I dont think he was a fake and I dont think he was putting up a show. Stefan said he fights to keep the darkness out every single day. Him Falling In Love with Elena wanted to make him a better person for her.
Same way as Damon began to fall in Love with Elena he began putting himself in check little by little drinking off of bloodbags not killing people for blood etc I dont think that makes one fake
Stefan just has trouble with his control and like Slash and Sweets said he has no middle ground and we need to see who Stefan is in his middle ground
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 20:20:38 GMT -5
Doppel you also said you could careless who Stefan is lol I dont think he was a fake and I dont think he was putting up a show. Stefan said he fights to keep the darkness out every single day. Him Falling In Love with Elena wanted to make him a better person for her. Same way as Damon began to fall in Love with Elena he began putting himself in check little by little drinking off of bloodbags not killing people for blood etc I dont think that makes one fake Stefan just has trouble with his control and like Slash and Sweets said he has no middle ground and we need to see who Stefan is in his middle ground I don't know why you'd mock me for something I said in an anti thread which apparently you read. No, I don't care who he is. I haven't liked him no matter who he's been but that should be no secret to anyone here and it doesn't preclude me from discussing him and his lack of a consistent personality. At this point unless he had a radical personality transplant, I doubt I ever will like him, but seeing as I have to watch him still it would be good for the series if we didn't have to guess who he is or get a different version of him all the time. For THAT reason I'd like to know who the hell he is once and for all. I honestly think they did this for a reason, so Elena would realize she doesn't know him and she does know Damon, all of the good, bad and ugly of Damon. He's never hid it or lied about it. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 20:33:53 GMT -5
One other thing, it doesn't concern you about who he is that he has that kind of darkness lurking right there ready to come out? The kind of darkness that destroyed an entire village, that rips people apart? Stefan has a little more than a 'control' problem. You make it sound like a hangnail.
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Post by mysticangel on Jan 28, 2013 21:09:12 GMT -5
Try to ease up here, folks. The thread is to discuss Stefan's character development, not to attack one another based on shipping preferences.
I for one am hoping we do get to see Stefan find something of a middle ground between what he considers to be the light part of himself and the dark part. His going from one extreme to the next hasn't done anything except cause strife and anguish to both himself and those around him, and while he may have been 'looking' for a way to sate his need for human blood without killing his food source, it may be that he had no real intention of fixing the ripper issue and simply wanted to forget that side of himself existed.
It was Damon who initially pushed him towards moderation, or what he called the 'road to recovery'- except that got torpedoed by Klaus and Damon never really had a chance to try to get his brother back on that road. I'd wager that even if Elena doesn't know who Stefan was, Damon has a good/near perfect idea, as well as an inkling of how to introduce his brother to the idea of self control. (I know, I know, it's Damon- but the man has shown he has the capability for it and utilizes it more now than he ever has before).
I am curious, though, as to what direction the fans want to see Stefan's character head in if he continues to want to be separated from Elena. IMO, The real test of Stelena will come not from Delena, but from Stefan's ability or inability to overcome (and not subdue) the darker side/s of himself in order to love and appreciate Elena for who she is, regardless of what she happens to be.
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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 28, 2013 21:25:01 GMT -5
Try to ease up here, folks. The thread is to discuss Stefan's character development, not to attack one another based on shipping preferences. I for one am hoping we do get to see Stefan find something of a middle ground between what he considers to be the light part of himself and the dark part. His going from one extreme to the next hasn't done anything except cause strife and anguish to both himself and those around him, and while he may have been 'looking' for a way to sate his need for human blood without killing his food source, it may be that he had no real intention of fixing the ripper issue and simply wanted to forget that side of himself existed. It was Damon who initially pushed him towards moderation, or what he called the 'road to recovery'- except that got torpedoed by Klaus and Damon never really had a chance to try to get his brother back on that road. I'd wager that even if Elena doesn't know who Stefan was, Damon has a good/near perfect idea, as well as an inkling of how to introduce his brother to the idea of self control. (I know, I know, it's Damon- but the man has shown he has the capability for it and utilizes it more now than he ever has before). I am curious, though, as to what direction the fans want to see Stefan's character head in if he continues to want to be separated from Elena. IMO, The real test of Stelena will come not from Delena, but from Stefan's ability or inability to overcome (and not subdue) the darker side/s of himself in order to love and appreciate Elena for who she is, regardless of what she happens to be. Mystic Angel Im ok not mad or getting upset I don't like bashing people's shipping preferences. Everyone has a different view of TVD =) And Doppel I was not trying to mocking you I just came across that post in new post earlier on in the day I wasnt even aware it was in the Anti Threads. What Im saying about Stefan is that he is in a Show that has to do with Vampires and a whole bunch of supernatural beings so yes Stefan's extreme and lack of control is him going all Massacre on a town or what not im very aware of. And I agree Mystc Angel like I said in my previous post Damon in my eyes would be a great person to help Stefan find that moderation he needs. And yea I agree this is Stefan's struggle right now and how will he overcome this side of him that he surpresses. So im interested to see where the show takes Stefan |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 21:45:59 GMT -5
If I thought we were going that far south I'd put a stop to it. I am the Admin after all. We're just debating what we think are the reasons for Stefan saying that/doing the things he's currently doing which is what this section is for. However our shipping preferences obviously do affect how we see things. Ruby and I are friends but we often don't agree.  |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 21:54:05 GMT -5
The nature of the whole triangle thing unfortunately pits Damon and Stefan against each other and right now Stefan is feeling angry/hurt/betrayed so the likelihood that right now he'd want Damon helping him is zero, but we have seen that those two always manage to keep their relationship intact no matter what happens so I think in the future, once Stefan settles down it's a very big possibility that he and Damon could work together to get rid of the Ripper aspect once and for all. Like I've said before I would like to see a successful arc with Stefan where some change comes out of it that betters him. Well, maybe losing Elena will be the push that gets him to do it.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 28, 2013 22:03:42 GMT -5
No fear mysticangel we can not bash any members here at ALL even for their shipping preferences..
Members are off limits... general public not so much.
I cant expect Elena to run back to Stefan and after these revelations I think SE will have to fall back in love. The "new" Stefan or "THE" Stefan she will have to discover. I'm just curious as to why it was so easy for him to "fall out of love"? A part of me kinda believes that he does in fact love her less. That he has been slowly loving her less and that is why it was so easy for him to get his memories erased. It's like the girl he knew and loved he saw slipping away from him. That is the only reason I can come to as the reason he was so mean to Elena and slept with Rebekah so easily.
We are watching this Stefan and I'm like who is this guy???
But then I remember my theory and this might be a bit off topic but it goes with what I'm saying.
The reason she chose Stefan was because Damon made a point to always tell her and show her that no matter her choice he would never leave her. If she chose Damon she feared Stefan would not be the same and she would lose someone and she has lost so many. She couldn't bear losing Stefan too. When he asked for his memories to be erased she lost him, when he told her "this is what it looks like when I'm no longer in love with you", she lost him. Not as a boyfriend but she lost that Stefan she cared about even if she wasn't in love with him at the moment. Her fears came true but it's to late to turn back.
Question is can Stefan and Elena ever be what they were? I don't think so and after all this they shouldn't be.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 28, 2013 22:10:55 GMT -5
Yes Sweet and she subconsciously knew that, thus what "Katherine" said to her when she was hallucinating, which was really her subconscious mind talking to her. She most likely buried that knowledge along with every other bad thing she knew about their relationship to keep the status quo. That's how I see it, too, and I guess it is off subject, yet not really, because it still makes us wonder how he could say he doesn't love her anymore. He could be lying but then he's just doing it to be hurtful in that case. But if we look at it all, the fact he did the breaking up saying HE couldn't do it anymore, the things he said to Caroline about not being able to deal with Elena being a vamp due to his blood problems, him being OK with Rebekah erasing his memory and now saying he doesn't love her anymore, that's alot of evidence that he was also falling out of love.
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Post by Slash on Jan 28, 2013 22:31:31 GMT -5
I honestly care little for Elena and the trouble she causes, by actions or just by some weird proxy effect (friends want to help her, new baddy wants to kidnap her, she's the key to something, etc.) but she's more of a detriment to Stefan's character than anyone. He needs some distance. Although she's done some good for Damon, I didn't like all the pining he did earlier on and the current "lets get on board Klaus' plan" bs that happened in the past episode. Yeah, she had Stefan acting 'good' but he shouldn't be lying/fronting that entire time just for her benefit. She has to like him for who he is and by some miracle, if she forces him to change or the good to shine more, more power to the relationship but for him to have to keep up an image is just wrong and tiring for him I'm sure. Plus, there is always Katherine. Sure, she messed up the Salvatores' lives royally but put her with either of the brothers and I'm more than entertained by an interest that has some 'bite' and can put her love in his place (kind of why I like Bekah and liked Rose). I have trouble understanding why Elena is always to blame for how Stefan behaved (or either of the Salvatores ). Elena cannot control how Stefan or anyone acts acts, and I think it's unfair to put any blame on her or, say that she was somehow detrimental to him. Elena didn't make Stefan the way he was, he practically forced his way into her life under the false pretense that he was this good guy vampire who would never hurt a soul. This was Stefan BEFORE Elena knew him. So why does she constantly get blamed for him choosing to be this person? It's Stefan's fault, if he wasn't partly dishonest about who he was in the first place, then she would have no reason to expect him to behave like a good guy. If you meet someone and they lead you to believe that they're something that they're not, it's not your fault if you expect them to conduct themselves accordingly. So I don't get why people say he's done this just for Elena's benefit, or that she has Stefan "acting good." She's the one who's been mislead by Stefan because Stefan decided he wasn't going to be honest about who he was, so why is Elena the villain here for expecting him to act the way he presented himself? And Stefan's being "good" was not for Elena's benefit either, it was for his own benefit, because he wanted to be with her, or have her in his life for his own reasons and he'd do whatever he had to do to make that happen, even pretend to be this person that he wasn't. In my opinion, Elena is the one who's been wronged here, she was lead on in a relationship with someone who was not honest about himself, and she ended up falling for this guy that didn't really exist (at least not really). That's the obvious conclusion on my end, I'm not really sure why Elena would be even remotely to blame for Stefan carrying on this charade of the good vampire boyfriend, when he introduced himself as such in the first place. What was she supposed to think? I'm a special case. I really don't like Elena a lot of the time. Ignore me on that account, most others do lol Elena isn't exactly to blame, by her own actions (not all the time) but she's a driving 'force' for both of them and is in part to blame due to her 'inactions'. By her inactions at times (not calling Stefan on his lies and the like), she's kind of enforcing the behavior to a degree. "Well, she didn't chew me out/break up with me/hate me for the last 10 lies so I can get away with another 50". She really didn't get on his case till after she became a Vampire and the whole 'sire bond' worked it's way into the equation. Up until then, Stefan has pretty much had a free ride on his behavior because of Elena's inaction to not impart consequences on Stefan for his lies/fronting. She lets her friends railroad Damon all day, every day and just stands there, knowing better. Once again, didn't change until she became a Vampire. So right now, it's like-hate cause she's finally speaking out but we have the whole sire bond thing clouding that up, if it's real. Damon is really the only one she's been active with in that regard and you can point a finger at her being 'responsible' for the way he's developed. She's called him out on his actions where she thought he was out of line and over the course of the series, we've seen him reform/regress to a 'better' person because of her 'actions' towards him and his choices. Stefan could have developed entirely different if Elena was this way with him (my problem with the 'lopsided' development of this triangle: each Brother seems to get some different benefit and for Stefan, they really haven't allowed him to develop much because of his). If he knew a lie or plan/action was going to lower Elena's opinion of him and possibly ruin his chances with her, he might be more forthcoming to her about stuff instead of the lies he's crafted. If she just once said "I want the entire truth right now, about anything you've told me about your past and if I find out it's a lie later down the road (Damon, Klaus, Bekah, some other old familiar exposing it as a lie), I'm through with you", he could get a lot off his chest and could probably 'relax' a bit. Since they'll be keeping this triangle going, this gives Elena a chance, more than likely with the sire bond out of the picture, for Elena to see the 'real' Stefan, that's not in love with her, and form an opinion from there about him. |
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proxi
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Post by proxi on Jan 29, 2013 2:02:41 GMT -5
I totally agree with Slash. Stefan's attitude and the lack of personal development comes from Elena's incapacity to show him he errors of his ways, the way she did with Damon. But I think that's not Elena's fault, her attitude has roots in her personal fears about her relationship with Stefan. She was always afraid of the fact that, if she had chosen Damon, Stefan would have leaved her. Which apparently, it's true.
At the point when the Salvatores switched places in Elena's heart, her expectations were high for Stefan. She expected from him a "Damon's attitude", for him to start being her "shadow-boyfriend", the way Damon was. But actually her worst fears came out, Stefan being incapable to show her selflessness. And I think his attitude now is starting to explain us Elena's motives for choosing Stefan in S3 finale.
Second, Stefan built his arrogance and selfishness on his "chosen one" status in the show. Not only Elena, but all the characters are showing him indulgence. Look at Ruby's post "He didn't mean it, to say that to Elena..." Why he didn't mean it? Why has he the right to speak s'''t and not be called for that s'''t?
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 29, 2013 8:21:13 GMT -5
I'm sure Ruby is coming from her own opinion on that, because I surely think he did mean it. I think there's enough recent evidence to show he was falling out of love with Elena, too, and his most recent actions show it as well, ie sleeping with Rebekah when his heart is supposed to be broken in two? Now I know people deal with heartbreak differently, but they were a couple not so long ago, not really physically together, but a couple and to see Stefan go have a purely physical relationship is surprising to me, mainly because we've never seen him that way. Damon, yeah, but not Stefan, the supposed 'pure' one. I kind of expected him to go lock himself in his room and cry his heart out to his diary. I don't even really care that he chose to do that, but it shows to me that his feelings for Elena and keeping that relationship intact and possible were just not there. And before someone tries to say it, it can't be compared to Damon because Damon and Elena had not ever been a couple and Damon had no hope that they ever would be when he slept with other women to try to distract himself from his 'brother's girl,' the girl he really wanted to be with.
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