|
|
Post by blakely on Feb 6, 2015 13:15:14 GMT -5
Ok... so I thought that this episode was one of the better ones of the season. That being said, I am still not really a fan of this season so far!!
Some thoughts n the episode though:
1. I will always be a Stelena first person, but I'm seriously trying hard to accept the whole Delena thing just so I can keep watching and enjoy the season. I would totally be more a DEer if Stefan hadn't dated her first and Damon wasn't just obsessed with Katherine for the 1 season & kept driving a wedge in their relationship, which finally worked due to a dumb sire bond. It's so freakin hard though because I just don't understand the logic. I've been binge watching this whole week, while studying and it just complexes me. This episode Elena still doesn't have her memories, which I don't really know how I feel about it, but all she still remembers about Damon is him being a serial killer/monster that she somehow fell in love with according to her friends. I get the whole "she makes him a better person" thing, but you learn in season 5 that he is still sneaking away on weekends to take revenge on a family from like 60 years ago and goes on a killing spree with Enzo when Katherine in Elena's body breaks up with him... End result, her friend aaron dying. It really sucks to see people like friends and even Kai, who is crazy, talk about how she is transitioning into a worse person. Sad part is I actually agree with him. What I don't understand is that Damon even admits that "He thinks Stelena would still be happening if she hadn't died" in this episode, which was kind of weird, because Elena didn't seem to remember making the decision, so I don't really know how much actually got erased along with her Happy Damon memories. I think the whole sire bond or whatever was a stupid cop out & Elena has had a bunch of kind of dumb cheesy quotes, whether it was the "life is too short" quote from last week to the "I always find my way back to you" quote from this week. I mean ya, you always find your way back to him because you have pretty much ruined everything wit Stefan, who was always there season 1-5 and even when he didn't have his memory still had the instinct to protect you. I know a lot of DEers are going to hate this and say true love conquers all and all that stuff and please remember I'm trying to convert to a DEer, but there relationship which can be cute at times just is really too much of a roller coaster for me, usually self inflicted, & Stelena was nice because in my opinion it was one of the constant things you could rely on when everything else in their life was being a roller coaster. I guess RANT is over ... sorry just haven't been on here in awhile and don't get the logic
Plot Twist: Remember back in season 3, Ghost Rose told Jeremy that Stefan will always be good for Elena & Damon was either the best or worst thing for her. I think all of the above will happen. I think in the beginning of her being a vampire, Damon was the best thing for her because he showed her how to actually be a vampire and how it could be an awesome thing, which lets be real she needed because Stefan is a great teacher but not many can do his vampire lifestyle. I think now we are starting to kind of see how she is transitioning to not as good ... coming to the worst part. I think they will see this and Damon will realize this eventually between season 6 & 7 and actually be selfless and end it or something. Then maybe Stelena since he will always be good and I can't help but remember how many times always was used in seasons 1-4. & besides I really miss the old witty Damon that use to be cunning & use to do his own thing but you always saw some redeeming qualities in him.
Sorry for all that
2. Have kind of been against the Whole Steroline ship but this episode actually kind of made me like it but I still don't want it to happen. Caroline is Stefan's Lexi now and I would just hate to see it go away or change
3. Really interested to see where Bonny goes from here with Jeremy leaving next episode!! They have always been kind of a thing in one way or another so it will be interesting to see what happens with Delena and Steroline happening around her.
4.Actually kind of liked Kai this episode with a little humanity in him... Think there might be hope for him!!
5. Dont know whether to feel bad for tyler or not to be honest. Kind of mad at him for walking out on caroline so it feels like karma but still feel bad for him
6. Kind of hate Enzo & I feel like his plan is going to screw something up.. which is kind of the point i guess but I feel like Stefan is going to have to tell Damon eventually
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 6, 2015 13:36:07 GMT -5
I moved your thread here because I actually would like to respond to some of your assertions about Delena but I know it's a controversial topic. You said you are genuinely tying to understand Delena so maybe some of us can tell you how we see it from our side...and welcome by the way. I love to see differing opinions here!
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 6, 2015 13:58:52 GMT -5
Now on to what you said and my response to it. I highlighted the parts I want to talk about:
Ok... so I thought that this episode was one of the better ones of the season. That being said, I am still not really a fan of this season so far!!
Some thoughts n the episode though:
I would totally be more a DEer if Stefan hadn't dated her first and Damon wasn't just obsessed with Katherine for the 1 season & kept driving a wedge in their relationship, which finally worked due to a dumb sire bond.
You are assuming the sire bond is what made Elena fall in love with Damon, but the show has told us that she fell in love with Damon in season 3x01 when he gave her back her necklace on her birthday and all of the other times that were significant to her finally falling in love with him before that so the sire bond DIDN'T make her fall in love with him. That's canon now in the show and that argument needs to stop being thrown out there because it isn't true and it confuses people like you. The witch made it clear that a sire bond only amplifies feelings that are already there. Elena already loved Damon for a full season but was too afraid to act on it.
All she still remembers about Damon is him being a serial killer/monster that she somehow fell in love with according to her friends.
This is not true. While Alaric removed her memories of falling in love and being in love with Damon, he only made her 'forget' that she loved him in that way and the heart doesn't forget. Remember when Jeremy was compelled to forget about Vicky? He said that he was still sad only he didn't know why. That part can't be erased, the underlying feelings are still there and she still is drawn to Damon because her love has only been hidden.
I get the whole "she makes him a better person" thing, but you learn in season 5 that he is still sneaking away on weekends to take revenge on a family from like 60 years ago and goes on a killing spree with Enzo when Katherine in Elena's body breaks up with him... End result, her friend aaron dying.
Aaron was a Whitmore and his family tortured Damon. He was being trained to take over the family's business by his uncle Wes. I don't consider Aaron innocent and neither did Damon. Put yourself in his place after being tortured by those people. Wouldn't you want to make it stop? It was evil what those people did and continued to do.
It really sucks to see people like friends and even Kai, who is crazy, talk about how she is transitioning into a worse person. Sad part is I actually agree with him. What I don't understand is that Damon even admits that "He thinks Stelena would still be happening if she hadn't died"
Damon isn't 'admitting' anything. Damon is expressing one of his fears, that Elena wouldn't love him if she hadn't turned, but we know that she fell in love with him in 3x01. Damon doesn't. Elena proceeds to tell him why he is wrong to have that fear. Damon isn't right and neither is Kai. Why do you think Elena is a worse person specifically? I don't.
You always find your way back to him because you have pretty much ruined everything wit Stefan, who was always there season 1-5 and even when he didn't have his memory still had the instinct to protect you.
I could make a whole argument for you about how Stefan WASN'T there for Elena and Elena has even said DAMON was always there for her, not Stefan, but the topic isn't Stefan in this debate. Suffice it to say I disagree that Stefan was always there for her and it is part of the reason that the cracks started to happen in Stelena.
I'm trying to convert to a DEer, but there relationship which can be cute at times just is really too much of a roller coaster for me, usually self inflicted, & Stelena was nice because in my opinion it was one of the constant things you could rely on when everything else in their life was being a roller coaster.
I'm glad you're trying to understand why Delena is so popular but it seems to me that you have been talking to the wrong people and getting bad information about what you should be looking at in the show to understand Delena. Certainly not the sire bond which is meaningless. I suppose to each their own on what makes a 'good' relationship. I think Delena has had an uphill battle for certain but as they say, "Anything worth having is worth fighting for." They have come a long way on their journey to each other and overcome tremendous odds but yet here they still are, which is exactly the sentiment that Elena was expressing to Damon in last night's episode.
Remember back in season 3, Ghost Rose told Jeremy that Stefan will always be good for Elena & Damon was either the best or worst thing for her. I think all of the above will happen. I think in the beginning of her being a vampire, Damon was the best thing for her because he showed her how to actually be a vampire and how it could be an awesome thing, which lets be real she needed because Stefan is a great teacher but not many can do his vampire lifestyle. I think now we are starting to kind of see how she is transitioning to not as good ... coming to the worst part.
You'd have to explain why you think she is worse because I don't see it. I see Elena still has her humanity intact and doesn't want to hurt anyone. That was part of why she wanted to forget loving Damon because her pain as a vampire was making her do things she didn't want to do (not unlike Damon who has been guilt ridden ever since he thought he killed baby Sarah and said so). Stefan killed countless people as well. It's part of being a vampire and trying to leash it. Some are faster, some are slower, some manage it, some have break out attacks of ripperism, some lash out when they are emotionally in a bad place (Damon and Elena.) So what is worse about her again?
I'd be glad to go into more detail on any of this that you want to know more about why I think what I do and why I ship Delena. Just let me know.
|
|
|
|
Post by blakely on Feb 6, 2015 15:01:59 GMT -5
Responses:
Ok like I know the sire bond isn't what exactly made her fall in love with him, but I just find it hard to believe that it isn't the cause for all this. My reasoning is.. yes I know she figured out she had feelings for Damon when he gave her back the necklace that Stefan gave her because he was finally truly selfless, but i guess it just irks me that at the end of season 3 she literally does pick Stefan over Damon in a pretty much "life or death" situation, so I don't see how her feelings for Damon are that much stronger than her's for Stefan is my problem. I know the sire bond isn't the reason but I feel like it didn't help just because I think Damon and her bonded on the whole showing her how to feed thing and Stefan and her weren't really able to do that since Damon said she needed "straight from the vein".
Ya I guess you are right because I do remember that whole vicky and Jeremy scene about not knowing why... I guess I'm just a hater because of all the things he did in season 1&2... Yes i know thats living in the past but he did some messed up stuff to Elena and I don't see how you truly forget everything he did and be ok with it even in love.
My whole argument for that is I know he is a Whitmore but he had no idea about his family legacy and was actually really helpful in finding Elena before she got tortured. I think he had no intentions in following his family footsteps and was leaving town when enzo and damon killed him... Elena was a gilbert but you don't see her falling in her father or family's footsteps.... & it was kind of a what comes around goes around thing... just speculating but ya it sucked what happened to Damon but that was 60 years ago.. Aaron wasn't even alive and had no idea to that episode, but finding out Damon has killed every generation in his family probably didn't help.
I think Damon is actually admitting it.. I mean he actually says something along the lines of "I don't feel like we would be together since you died going to see Stefan" .. that was paraphrasing of course but I feel like Damon admits all the time that He and Elena aren't right for each other and are dysfunctional... doesn't mean he isn't ever going to stop loving her. I think the sayin is love is blind and I think it pertains to Elena in this case. Damon is selfish and I do feel bad for him for everything he is been through but I honestly think he is changing Elena.. I know being a vampire changed her, I just feel like she doesn't care as much anymore if that makes sense.. like she is becoming numb to feelings and is kind of taking more of a Damon from season 1-3 outlook on everything. I feel like her and Damon kind of traded places. I know that probably sounds crazy.
The only thing I can really say to this is I feel like the only time I can truly say stefan wasn't there for Elena is when he was off with Klaus in i think season 3 because he gave himself up for Damon.. & I think that is where I'm so conflicted is that the whole Delena romance started while stefan was away because he wanted to save his his brother & after that he kept pushing Elena away because he felt guilty for all he had done and didn't want to hurt her.
It is just so frustrating that it seems like something is always going on between them. I know this is probably a flawed look on it but I just feel like Stelena went through so much more than Delena has & i never really got tired of it and it was good and not self inflicted. I mean Stelena went through the whole finding out about vampire thing, Damon killing people including her brother and Lexi, Katherine, Klaus and the Orignials and were still happy and say what you want but Elena never died until season 3 when matt and jer tried to smuggle her out of town. Delena i know has had external problems with Kai and the travelers but I feel like a lot of it is self inflicted too and I find it ironic that Damon got mad at stefan for saving matt and Elena dying because of her choice but then in season 5 he lets her get in the car and die too with him being her choice knowing something could go wrong.
I guess I don't really have any solid proof about her becoming bad but I guess what sticks in my mind is in season 5 how after she killed Jessie... and yes i know he was hurting Damon but then Caroline pretty much says that the old Elena wouldn't have just killed him but done something different to try and help him. I know her character is evolving into herself as a vampire but you can't really say the old elena is still around. I think it also has to do with the plot of the new seasons and I feel like its mainly focus on ships which i hate because 1-3 and even 4 had some good story lines but with Ships in the background of it. I just feel like they are pushing Delena way too much and I felt like Stelena was never forced. I feel like Elena's whole word kind of revolves around Damon and I know it doesn't but that is what the show kind of points it towards and with Stefan I feel like she actually had a life. And yes I know Stefan has killed a lot of people but I think his body count is slightly lower than Damons but i'm also excluding his summer with Klaus because I don't think he really had a choice and was trying to keep Elena and Damon as far away from Klaus as possible.
& just another thing is I find it really ironic that Elena in 5 & 6 is trying to lead a normal life like a real person, which is what i guess you do being a vampire, & that was always Stefans dream that he achieved being with Elena & that Damon loves the vampire life and embraces it and sees be human as a bad thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Somerhaldered on Feb 6, 2015 15:12:57 GMT -5
So, Doppel pretty much said what I was going to say, so I won't re-hash too much, lol. My biggest question is why does Elena seem like she is turning into the bad parts of her? She went into a downward spiral when she thought the love of her life had died and even then, I only remember her attacking one person during that time. She used the herbs to try and see him again because she was in denial and pain and she just wanted to be with him. She then had her memories compelled away so she could reign it all in, and I don't see any "bad" in her really. She has done what she can do (as far as she is personally capable) to help save Bonnie, she has been there for her friends in their times of need (i.e. Caroline, Jo, etc), she tried to bring her brother back to reality, etc. etc. I'm just not sure what is bad about her right now. She is not in ripper mode and she is not being a b*tch to anyone that doesn't deserve it. Also, as a DE fan, I hated the sire bond as much as the rest of them, but Tyler, Klaus and the witch all said that those bonds are forged from true HUMAN feelings - it doesn't change how you act, it just accentuates how you feel. I'm not sure why this point keeps getting brought up. It's as bad as the whole "Stelena was aligned by the universe" thing. We found out that was a crock of crap too because it was just a made up story! People ship who they want and no matter what explanations are given. I personally would have a hard time jumping ship to another (especially in a triangle) even if I thought the other couple might be ok to deal with. If some other guy was written in the story for Elena and she and Damon broke up for good, I would be Delena for life even if the other guy turned out to be better for her.  I know Stelenas that are still holding out hope that they will come full circle even though they seem like they are not going to go there again. |
|
|
|
Post by blakely on Feb 6, 2015 15:35:29 GMT -5
I'm not trying to say any of y'all are wrong because I am really trying to be a DEer just because I at one time did love the show and would really like to keep being a fan until it ends and being a DEer would definitely help me enjoy the show more right now. Maybe I'm just being stubborn and set in my ways but for some reason I just feel like she has gotten worse.... She still has her feelings and humanity but I just feel like she isn't as intact with them anymore & like I said earlier is I blame some of the writing and plot because I feel like they are pushing things too hard making the whole Delena thing the center of attention and them kind of self-centered....... & yes ill use liz dying as an example cause everyone else has but I do kind of agree... liz almost died and then next thing I know Delena is making out in the hallway... old Elena i felt like would have stayed there with Caroline... probably wouldn't have let caroline out of her sight..... I just remember the old Elena almost being annoying with her feelings and having to be told to go away pretty much because she cared too much like when bonnie's grams died & I guess I'm old school but I was always a fan on how Stefan was i guess a gentlemen and tried to do all the human experiences like taking her on dates, going to all the school dances an what not & I just feel like Delena is all about sex... and I was hoping with season 6 that with her memory loss that Damon and her could kind of do those things but have yet to see anything really. I think that is why I'm so disappointed to be honest
I do agree with you on the sire thing and the Stelena universe thing.. won't lie it definitely got my hopes up because I know as stupid as it sounds if every doppleganger (m/s) has gotten together in the last 2000 years there has to be a little truth behind it.
At this point I almost to the point where i think it would be ironic if neither of them got her.... I know that would screw everything up but I would be kind of pissed but would probably laugh in the end
Talking about it has help because honestly I want to enjoy the show but I just feel likes its nowhere near what it was in seasons 1-3 tbh
|
|
|
|
Post by Somerhaldered on Feb 6, 2015 15:41:23 GMT -5
Responding to some of the new points...
As far as Elena and Damon's relationship and how it grew, we know she was in love with him by 3x01, but we also know you don't fall in love with someone at one point in time. She had feelings for him that were building up but she didn't quite know how to deal with them and she was kind of still with stefan and hanging onto their relationship. I feel like she and Damon had plenty of bonding moments leasing up to when she died - road trip to Georgia, dinner parties that Elena threw (like trying to win over Jenna), road trip to go find Stefan. There were just small moments of when they would really start to click.
I kind of agree about Aaron, that he didn't really approve of the whole Whitmore operation. He was on his way out and Damon was like 'forget it' and killed him anyways, also an influence of Enzo. Katherine (as Elena) said he was a monster and Enzo was like, show them what a monster really is. He was a lab rat for a long time and Enzo even longer so I think he was not only killing the Whitmores for himself but also a little to avenge his friend who he thought he had let die in the fire. Is it right? Not completely, but that is how he knew how to cope.
I really don't feel like Damon and Elena have traded places. S1 Damon didn't care about anyone and he was even a little mean to Elena because he knew it would bug Stefan and I think he was trying to cover up the fact that he was starting to fall in love with her too. I still see humanity in Elena and you even say she's trying to live a human life now, well that's a bit contradicting right?
As far as Jesse goes, Elena didn't know what she was up against - she showed up and he was about to ravish Damon and all she knew is that the prof. had altered him to crave vampire blood. She was looking out for Damon in that moment, but if you think about it she had a split second to think about what to do and if she had only snapped his neck, what would he have done when he woke up? Didn't Jesse almost go after Caroline too? So not only was he a brand new vampire, but he also craved vampire blood. Very unpredictable scenario that they would have to work through.
As far as what has been thrown at DE since they've been together, there have been so many things! There are a lot of Delena fans left watching the show so I think they are trying to find a way to bring them back together (for a bit). Yes it is a bit of a roller coaster but I feel a lot of the forces were external. For me, it's been fun to watch but still frustrating at the same time so I can see where non DE fans would be like, be done or be together already. I will say that if she does not end up with Damon, I'd rather her be alone or have someone completely new because it would be ridiculous at this point to go back to Stefan. She said in S4 she wasn't 'in love' with him anymore - they are too far gone and the triangle has been broken.
|
|
|
|
Post by Somerhaldered on Feb 6, 2015 15:51:20 GMT -5
I'm not trying to say any of y'all are wrong because I am really trying to be a DEer just because I at one time did love the show and would really like to keep being a fan until it ends and being a DEer would definitely help me enjoy the show more right now. Maybe I'm just being stubborn and set in my ways but for some reason I just feel like she has gotten worse.... She still has her feelings and humanity but I just feel like she isn't as intact with them anymore & like I said earlier is I blame some of the writing and plot because I feel like they are pushing things too hard making the whole Delena thing the center of attention and them kind of self-centered....... & yes ill use liz dying as an example cause everyone else has but I do kind of agree... liz almost died and then next thing I know Delena is making out in the hallway... old Elena i felt like would have stayed there with Caroline... probably wouldn't have let caroline out of her sight..... I just remember the old Elena almost being annoying with her feelings and having to be told to go away pretty much because she cared too much like when bonnie's grams died & I guess I'm old school but I was always a fan on how Stefan was i guess a gentlemen and tried to do all the human experiences like taking her on dates, going to all the school dances an what not & I just feel like Delena is all about sex... and I was hoping with season 6 that with her memory loss that Damon and her could kind of do those things but have yet to see anything really. I think that is why I'm so disappointed to be honest I do agree with you on the sire thing and the Stelena universe thing.. won't lie it definitely got my hopes up because I know as stupid as it sounds if every doppleganger (m/s) has gotten together in the last 2000 years there has to be a little truth behind it. At this point I almost to the point where i think it would be ironic if neither of them got her.... I know that would screw everything up but I would be kind of pissed but would probably laugh in the end Talking about it has help because honestly I want to enjoy the show but I just feel likes its nowhere near what it was in seasons 1-3 tbh Of course, it's in the debate board so we can go back and forth on it, so no worries at all! Most people can't win with Elena - they either think she's annoying when she cares too much and is too nice or they want her to go back that way when she starts to loosen the strings a little. You know what's funny about the whole sex thing - we only actually "saw" Stelena have sex once - the first time. After that, they were interrupted or it was implied because they woke up in bed in the morning. How many times have we actually seen Delena have sex though? Maybe my mind is foggy but the first time was at the end of S3, they spent ALL of S4 looking for the cure and they weren't together during that really, I'm drawing a blank for S5 but I know that was the whole traveler/universe stuff so there couldn't have been that much, then he died and we haven't seen it in S6 until last night. So when everyone says they are all about sex does that mean kissing? Chemistry? They said we would get to see more of them "dating" and the summer of love, so we'll see if they take it there. But honestly with memory loss, Bonnie in AU, dealing with Kai and merge and now Liz dying, there hasn't really been much time for that when Damon seems to be the only one who throws plans out there (be it good or bad, lol). |
|
|
|
Post by blakely on Feb 6, 2015 16:25:41 GMT -5
Responding to some of the new points...
I mean I will never disagree that she had feelings for Damon when she was with Stefan I get that and so did he hence the whole road trip to denver to figure out what she really wanted....& like I said is that is the hardest part to grasp because everyone knew that she was kind of following in Katherine's footsteps of playing both brothers and even after that and admitting she loved Damon she still picked Stefan in a life or death situation. Felt like Stelena fans kind of got robbed because The whole 2-3 seasons Damon was playing his way in and they had been waiting for her to pick and she finally did & then it got taken away like 6 episodes into season 4. I think it also makes a lot of people mad that Stefan from the beginning was there for only Elena but Damon was only there to make Stefan miserable and to be reunited with Katherine... then after he found out she didn't care anything about him he turned his sights on Elena. Kind of felt like hey she would be a good rebound and it would really piss my brother off... hence one of the reasons he took her to Georgia without her say.
As far as Elena and Damon's relationship and how it grew, we know she was in love with him by 3x01, but we also know you don't fall in love with someone at one point in time. She had feelings for him that were building up but she didn't quite know how to deal with them and she was kind of still with stefan and hanging onto their relationship. I feel like she and Damon had plenty of bonding moments leasing up to when she died - road trip to Georgia, dinner parties that Elena threw (like trying to win over Jenna), road trip to go find Stefan. There were just small moments of when they would really start to click.
And I get the whole revenge thing, I really do I mean I would be so pissed off if it was me & ya Elena/Katherine said the whole monster thing but he did prove her right? I mean i just feel if someone is in love with someone even if they hurt you .. you don't instantly go out and try to hurt them.. I mean i guess you can but you do something that you can kind of take back later on and let say not kill someone. & even in season 6 when Elena tells stefan she kissed that hospital guy.. forgot his name but stefan tells her not to tell Damon and she ask why so he doesn't go kill people? I just don't see that as healthy
I know it is super contradicting and thats what I was trying to say... I feel like she is taking the Stefan approach to being a vampire!! and I know why he was being mean but Idk I just feel like if your brother saves your life you don't try and talk to his girl... like let them work themselves out of it without your help then you can get your chance... I know that isn't how it works in the real world but they don't really live int he real world in mystic Falls. lmao
I agree she had a split second to decided but at that point only Damon knew he was feeding on vampires.. He bit caroline on the lip and got a taste of her blood and went crazy and disappeared to go confront the Dr and that is how Damon came into the picture. So Caroline and Elena had no clue what he was but I feel like she would have just snapped his neck and Damon could have told them what he found out about from the Dr. and they could have just locked him up in the cellar like the brothers do to each other when they get out of hand and figured something else out. I know its far fetch but I think that is what caroline meant.. cause old Elena never accepted that there was only one way to solve a problem if it meant killin someone... other than herself of course. Lets just face it... Caroline has terrible luck with guys!!
Ya I agree but they need to do something because the ratings aren't really getting any better. It doesn't help DE though they Damon has constantly been told that they won't work and that people don't forget their first love, which is Stefan, in Elena's case. He kind of needs to get over his insecurities I feel like because she had done more than enough to prove to him she is serious. I also agree that I feel the whole Stelena thing is way too far pass recovery but it just makes me laugh how many times always was used the first seasons and everyone describe stolen as an epic love and that is why people have hope. People also just like to point out that they think stefan actually does love her more because he was able to fight off compulsion for her and Damon couldn't. I know its a stretch and Im not a huge fan of steroline just because she is his new lexi i feel like.
great discussion though!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 6, 2015 17:56:42 GMT -5
Over the years I have debated these same point with multiple Stelenas and got nowhere because they really weren't hearing me and wanted to keep believing their false beliefs. The show and the showrunners have been showing us the truth, and it isn't what the Stelenas think at all. People will believe what they want despite the facts that the show tell them point blank. Point blank they have said Elena fell in love with Damon in 3x01, or rather she knew she was in love with him. Everything before that accumulated in her love at that point. Was she willing to admit it yet? No! But that doesn't change the fact that she was in love with Damon and not Stefan at that point in time, long before the sire bond, long before she became a vampire. So I will make that point right now and come back and see if I've gained any more patience for more of these arguments later. I have to do some RL stuff right now. Be back later... I'm going to pick up the Damon arguments about him 'stealing' Stefan's girl because that in particular is a false belief and is easily provable, in so many ways, in particular when he compelled her to forget he told her he loved her because he didn't want to be selfish with her and said Stefan was better for her. That doesn't sound like a selfish brother's girl stealer to me. How can Stelenas dismiss that? OR the many times he tried to help keep Stelena together? Anyway, I'll be back...
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 6, 2015 19:31:48 GMT -5
Alright I'm back....to further my argument, the Stelenas said all the way up until now and EVEN now that Elena loved Stefan and the sire bond is what changed all that. That is patently false and we've now been told that in the show itself so nobody should be arguing it any more. It's a proven fact now. It's no longer opinion or a feeling or an impression. It is show canon. So there is that! So why did Elena choose Stefan in 3x22? I still don't solidly have a good answer for that. If she loved Damon, which she did, I don't know why she stayed with Stefan. Loyalty? Familiarity? Fear of the Unknown? Her friends approval? Or all of that perhaps. In any case she was in love with Damon when she chose Stefan in 3x22. Again, it's now show canon and that is the truth. Delenas knew she loved Damon in season three. We all knew it. There had been plenty of proof despite the protestations of Stelenas chanting, "It's always gonna be Stefan." I was personally shocked, appalled and dismayed at her 'choice.' I was 100% sure she was in love with Damon and would choose him...but she didn't, and I still think that was the worst decision the writers ever made for killing the momentum of the series. Nevertheless, we Delenas were vindicated when Elena admitted the exact moment she knew she was in love with Damon and it was well before the sire bond thus killing that argument forever (or so we thought).
To try to get you up to speed on previous debates and so I don't have to repeat myself about my thoughts/position on Delena and Damon, here are a few links from this forum and these are always open debates so you CAN post in them again, even if they are old:
Has Damon Truly Changed: tvd1.proboards.com/thread/695/damon-truly-changed
This is another good one that compares Damon and Stefan on their goodness/badness. Rather than believing on the surface that Stefan is the 'good' brother and Damon is the 'bad' brother because some of the characters on the show seem to think so, it analyzes the actions of each of the brothers. It also explains pretty well how I feel about Stefan.:
tvd1.proboards.com/thread/200/stefan-equal-exceed-damon
|
|
|
|
Post by Somerhaldered on Feb 6, 2015 19:49:25 GMT -5
I feel like damon took her to Georgia to get her to lighten up quite frankly cause she had a stick up her ass being with Stefan.
Don’t you see damon’s character growth though? You mentioned before that he wouldn’t let her make her own choices, but Stefan did. Then you said she got in the car at the end of S5 and he let her make her own choice - wasn’t that the whole point of that scene (and their talk, him mocking her by saying it was 'his' choice) - it was her choice and she has always been about having her own say. He finally let her do it.
Also, damon has mentioned in this last season - “why does everyone think I’m going to resort to violence?” Don’t you think he has grown and thinks now before making rash decisions? Stefan still has no faith in Damon but Elena at least does. I feel like he is pretty much the only character on this show that has shown positive growth within himself and he doesn’t get enough credit for it. People are still ragging on him for stuff he did 4-5 seasons ago. Stefan was “The Ripper of Monterey” but does it make it ok because we didn’t get to see that time in his life? He has an entire wall of victims names - or do we just conveniently leave this stuff out cause he’s stefan and now he eats bunnies. He eats bunnies because he's terrible at being a vampire - he's a ripper vampire!
Can I ask why Stefan and Elena are seen as being so epic? They reminded me of a high school couple. To me, those relationships break up. Not to say they weren’t cute in their own right but that’s where it stopped for me. I just didn’t get the same feels from them as I did when Elena looked at Damon, no matter how hard she tried to fight it. Sure people don’t forget their first love - well cause it was the first one - but most people don’t marry their first love either. Remember she was 16 when he met her. He also lied to her (and withheld truths) multiple times and you Stelenas and Stefan will say it was to “protect” her, but that is also one of the things Elena hated about Stefan - that he treated her like a fragile doll.
I’m not gonna argue who loves who more, because how would I know. They all love each other differently and for different parts of their personality. We could speculate for years on that. I always think that these debates always end at a stalemate anyways because each side states their case until their blue in the face but no one ever really agrees, lol.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 6, 2015 20:14:06 GMT -5
Now on to responding to specifics:
Ok like I know the sire bond isn't what exactly made her fall in love with him, but I just find it hard to believe that it isn't the cause for all this.
Well the writers of the show have told us it isn't so just because you feel like it is means nothing. You need to re-evaluate those feelings because now you know they are false.
Ya I guess you are right because I do remember that whole vicky and Jeremy scene about not knowing why... I guess I'm just a hater because of all the things he did in season 1&2
So is nobody redeemable in your eyes? If that's the case how do you justify not hating Stefan for being a Ripper and tearing people into bits multiple times?
I think Damon is actually admitting it.. I mean he actually says something along the lines of "I don't feel like we would be together since you died going to see Stefan"
Actually admitting what? Damon is not Elena. He doesn't know what is in her heart. He doesn't speak for her or decide for her what she feels. He only knows what he thinks are the reasons for her doing what she does and as it turns out, he is wrong based upon the facts we know, that Elena loved Damon long before she became a vampire.
.. that was paraphrasing of course but I feel like Damon admits all the time that He and Elena aren't right for each other and are dysfunctional...
Damon is saying his biggest fears. Do you not see the selflessness in the things he says? He doesn't want to hurt Elena. He doesn't want to be bad for Elena. He doesn't want to ruin Elena. If he were as selfish as you seem to think he is, then he wouldn't be saying all those things at all. He keeps breaking up with her because he is so afraid he will hurt her. He knows he's done bad things. He knows he's impulsive and has done things impulsively but he has been controlling it and he is struggling with it and little by little it has gotten a whole lot better. Stuff isn't going to change overnight, but over time we can see the changes that have happened with Damon.
Damon is selfish and I do feel bad for him for everything he is been through but I honestly think he is changing Elena.. I know being a vampire changed her, I just feel like she doesn't care as much anymore if that makes sense..
How is Damon changing Elena? I already addressed your arguments about Damon being selfish briefly but I could write a very long list of proof that Damon is anything but selfish. There are so many examples! I don't know how you could miss it. The above is one. His compelling Elena to forget was another and there are lots more.
The only thing I can really say to this is I feel like the only time I can truly say stefan wasn't there for Elena is when he was off with Klaus
As I said this wasn't really about Stefan but just to throw out a few...how about when he threatened to drive Elena off Wickery Bridge and then left her there alone in the dark to fend for herself? How about when he made her feel like a broken doll because she was a vampire? How about when he shut his eyes and let Klaus take her away to be sacrificed? How about when he let her drown? You can say that some of those were by her own choice but if you loved someone would you do that or would you fight every way you could to save them like Damon would?
I guess I don't really have any solid proof about her becoming bad but I guess what sticks in my mind is in season 5 how after she killed Jessie... and yes i know he was hurting Damon but then Caroline pretty much says that the old Elena wouldn't have just killed him
Caroline wasn't saying a whole lot of good things about Elena at that point in time and if it's the 'old' Elena she liked she's forgotten that becoming a vampire magnifies the true self. If Elena has changed it's because she has become more herself, like Caroline did when she turned.
I just feel like they are pushing Delena way too much and I felt like Stelena was never forced.
Delena evolved over 5 seasons and you are calling it forced? Stelena happened in two episodes and you think that was natural? Stelena was voted as most boring couple of all time. I think that speaks for itself.
I find it really ironic that Elena in 5 & 6 is trying to lead a normal life like a real person, which is what i guess you do being a vampire, & that was always Stefans dream that he achieved being with Elena & that Damon loves the vampire life and embraces it and sees be human as a bad thing.
You must have missed the episode where Damon admits that he misses being human and I think that changed over the seasons to where he accepted being a vampire was what he wanted to be. He accepted himself as he was and how is that a bad thing? If Elena had taken that cure she'd be dead now, like Katherine is and I think Elena has accepted being a vampire as well knowing that she can spend eternity with Damon makes that her choice at this point in time. When Damon died she realized she'd spend her eternity alone because Damon was her eternal choice and she couldn't live for eternity without him That says an awful lot about how she feels about Damon and it's permanency. To say Delena is all about sex is ridiculous. They went from barely getting along to friends to where they are now. They didn't hook up in ten episodes like Stelena did. So which couple is all about sex? I think Stelenas ought to rethink that argument. |
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 6, 2015 20:16:17 GMT -5
I feel like damon took her to Georgia to get her to lighten up quite frankly cause she had a stick up her ass being with Stefan. Don’t you see damon’s character growth though? You mentioned before that he wouldn’t let her make her own choices, but Stefan did. Then you said she got in the car at the end of S5 and he let her make her own choice - wasn’t that the whole point of that scene (and their talk, him mocking her by saying it was 'his' choice) - it was her choice and she has always been about having her own say. He finally let her do it. Also, damon has mentioned in this last season - “why does everyone think I’m going to resort to violence?” Don’t you think he has grown and thinks now before making rash decisions? Stefan still has no faith in Damon but Elena at least does. I feel like he is pretty much the only character on this show that has shown positive growth within himself and he doesn’t get enough credit for it. People are still ragging on him for stuff he did 4-5 seasons ago. Stefan was “The Ripper of Monterey” but does it make it ok because we didn’t get to see that time in his life? He has an entire wall of victims names - or do we just conveniently leave this stuff out cause he’s stefan and now he eats bunnies. He eats bunnies because he's terrible at being a vampire - he's a ripper vampire! Can I ask why Stefan and Elena are seen as being so epic? They reminded me of a high school couple. To me, those relationships break up. Not to say they weren’t cute in their own right but that’s where it stopped for me. I just didn’t get the same feels from them as I did when Elena looked at Damon, no matter how hard she tried to fight it. Sure people don’t forget their first love - well cause it was the first one - but most people don’t marry their first love either. Remember she was 16 when he met her. He also lied to her (and withheld truths) multiple times and you Stelenas and Stefan will say it was to “protect” her, but that is also one of the things Elena hated about Stefan - that he treated her like a fragile doll. I’m not gonna argue who loves who more, because how would I know. They all love each other differently and for different parts of their personality. We could speculate for years on that. I always think that these debates always end at a stalemate anyways because each side states their case until their blue in the face but no one ever really agrees, lol. Absolutely! Elena was very self-righteous and judgmental when she was with Stefan. She annoyed me a lot of the time in season one and two. Now she knows how to have some fun! Damon helped her remember those parts of herself that she had lost when her parents died. She used to be fun....I believe that was one of her lines in the first season. |
|
|
|
Post by Sweetluv4DE on Feb 6, 2015 20:23:53 GMT -5
Responding to some of the new points... I mean I will never disagree that she had feelings for Damon when she was with Stefan I get that and so did he hence the whole road trip to denver to figure out what she really wanted....& like I said is that is the hardest part to grasp because everyone knew that she was kind of following in Katherine's footsteps of playing both brothers and even after that and admitting she loved Damon she still picked Stefan in a life or death situation. Felt like Stelena fans kind of got robbed because The whole 2-3 seasons Damon was playing his way in and they had been waiting for her to pick and she finally did & then it got taken away like 6 episodes into season 4. I think it also makes a lot of people mad that Stefan from the beginning was there for only Elena but Damon was only there to make Stefan miserable and to be reunited with Katherine... then after he found out she didn't care anything about him he turned his sights on Elena. Kind of felt like hey she would be a good rebound and it would really piss my brother off... hence one of the reasons he took her to Georgia without her say. As far as Elena and Damon's relationship and how it grew, we know she was in love with him by 3x01, but we also know you don't fall in love with someone at one point in time. She had feelings for him that were building up but she didn't quite know how to deal with them and she was kind of still with stefan and hanging onto their relationship. I feel like she and Damon had plenty of bonding moments leasing up to when she died - road trip to Georgia, dinner parties that Elena threw (like trying to win over Jenna), road trip to go find Stefan. There were just small moments of when they would really start to click. And I get the whole revenge thing, I really do I mean I would be so pissed off if it was me & ya Elena/Katherine said the whole monster thing but he did prove her right? I mean i just feel if someone is in love with someone even if they hurt you .. you don't instantly go out and try to hurt them.. I mean i guess you can but you do something that you can kind of take back later on and let say not kill someone. & even in season 6 when Elena tells stefan she kissed that hospital guy.. forgot his name but stefan tells her not to tell Damon and she ask why so he doesn't go kill people? I just don't see that as healthy I know it is super contradicting and thats what I was trying to say... I feel like she is taking the Stefan approach to being a vampire!! and I know why he was being mean but Idk I just feel like if your brother saves your life you don't try and talk to his girl... like let them work themselves out of it without your help then you can get your chance... I know that isn't how it works in the real world but they don't really live int he real world in mystic Falls. lmao I agree she had a split second to decided but at that point only Damon knew he was feeding on vampires.. He bit caroline on the lip and got a taste of her blood and went crazy and disappeared to go confront the Dr and that is how Damon came into the picture. So Caroline and Elena had no clue what he was but I feel like she would have just snapped his neck and Damon could have told them what he found out about from the Dr. and they could have just locked him up in the cellar like the brothers do to each other when they get out of hand and figured something else out. I know its far fetch but I think that is what caroline meant.. cause old Elena never accepted that there was only one way to solve a problem if it meant killin someone... other than herself of course. Lets just face it... Caroline has terrible luck with guys!! Ya I agree but they need to do something because the ratings aren't really getting any better. It doesn't help DE though they Damon has constantly been told that they won't work and that people don't forget their first love, which is Stefan, in Elena's case. He kind of needs to get over his insecurities I feel like because she had done more than enough to prove to him she is serious. I also agree that I feel the whole Stelena thing is way too far pass recovery but it just makes me laugh how many times always was used the first seasons and everyone describe stolen as an epic love and that is why people have hope. People also just like to point out that they think stefan actually does love her more because he was able to fight off compulsion for her and Damon couldn't. I know its a stretch and Im not a huge fan of steroline just because she is his new lexi i feel like. great discussion though!! Responding to some of the new points... I mean I will never disagree that she had feelings for Damon when she was with Stefan I get that and so did he hence the whole road trip to denver to figure out what she really wanted....& like I said is that is the hardest part to grasp because everyone knew that she was kind of following in Katherine's footsteps of playing both brothers and even after that and admitting she loved Damon she still picked Stefan in a life or death situation. Ok I will start here. The show stated that Elena didn't have feelings for Damon but that she loved him. How much or how deeply could be debated but feelings is not what you would use to define how she felt. She loved him and it scared the crap out of her. The only way her memories could be erased was if they found the moment she knew she loved him and it was season 3 episode 1. So throughout season 3 Elena loved Damon, felt bad for loving Damon, tried to hide said love but eventually she couldn't deny it. As far as her picking Stefan I honestly felt she did it out of loyalty. She knew 100% she loved Stefan. She felt it and it was familiar. With Damon she was hiding it. It was hard for her to even admit that she found him attractive. She didn't want to be Kat and she shamed her love for Damon into a little closet and locked it away. In life and death she felt she owed Stefan that last goodbye. She chose the man she was familiar with over the love she was scared to feel. Felt like Stelena fans kind of got robbed because The whole 2-3 seasons Damon was playing his way in and they had been waiting for her to pick and she finally did & then it got taken away like 6 episodes into season 4. I think it also makes a lot of people mad that Stefan from the beginning was there for only Elena but Damon was only there to make Stefan miserable and to be reunited with Katherine... then after he found out she didn't care anything about him he turned his sights on Elena. Kind of felt like hey she would be a good rebound and it would really piss my brother off... hence one of the reasons he took her to Georgia without her say. Ok I don't agree here. Damon cared deeply for Elena at first sight! He met her first and was intrigued from the get. Do you remember I think it was the 3rd episode where he crawled into her room and was loving caressing her face? Or when she was at the graveyard and his crow was watching her? He was always intrigued by Elena but he loved Kat at the time. Elena threw him off and I think he tried to fight his love for her and eventually it just came forth. He didn't decide well Kat hurt me so Elena. No he still loved Kat and Elena at the same time. It was only until he realized who Kat truly was that his blinders were off and he was able to focus solely on those feelings that were growing for Elena. That in fact were there from the moment they met. That he even tried to fight... Remember the "I love you Erase" scene. As far as Elena and Damon's relationship and how it grew, we know she was in love with him by 3x01, but we also know you don't fall in love with someone at one point in time. She had feelings for him that were building up but she didn't quite know how to deal with them and she was kind of still with stefan and hanging onto their relationship. I feel like she and Damon had plenty of bonding moments leasing up to when she died - road trip to Georgia, dinner parties that Elena threw (like trying to win over Jenna), road trip to go find Stefan. There were just small moments of when they would really start to click. She didn't fall in love with Damon in that moment in 3x01. That wasn't what the show presented. It was the moment SHE KNEW THAT SHE KNEW SHE LOVED HIM. In order to love someone there is a point where you realize it. And her point was seeing his selflessness by giving her that necklace. In that moment she realized wow I love him and I'm super scared of loving him. And I get the whole revenge thing, I really do I mean I would be so pissed off if it was me & ya Elena/Katherine said the whole monster thing but he did prove her right? I mean i just feel if someone is in love with someone even if they hurt you .. you don't instantly go out and try to hurt them.. I mean i guess you can but you do something that you can kind of take back later on and let say not kill someone. & even in season 6 when Elena tells stefan she kissed that hospital guy.. forgot his name but stefan tells her not to tell Damon and she ask why so he doesn't go kill people? I just don't see that as healthy He's a vampire. End of story. Stefan killed an entire village of people because he was hungry. vampires do stupid cruel things for different reasons. But Stefan was redeemed so Damon can be as well.
I know it is super contradicting and thats what I was trying to say... I feel like she is taking the Stefan approach to being a vampire!! and I know why he was being mean but Idk I just feel like if your brother saves your life you don't try and talk to his girl... like let them work themselves out of it without your help then you can get your chance... I know that isn't how it works in the real world but they don't really live int he real world in mystic Falls. lmao Just remember there is no bro code with the Salvatores. They are not the Winchesters (ode to Supernatural) and will never be. Let me take you back to 1864 where Stefan did this to Damon in regards to Kat. his words not mine.... "I knew that he wanted her but I didn't care". He was telling Elena how he got with Kat despite knowing how much his brother had fallen for her. These brothers have issues. They still haven't worked through them all. When Damon came to Mystic he and Stefan were not on good terms. Anything went. Stefan turned Damon into a Vampire. Remember by the lake he brought that girl even though Damon said No? Then Stefan went on an eating rampage and Damon left? Then we have what Stefan did to Kat. So honestly these boys have issue and had no allegiance to one another. It's not until later that we see the trying to get deeper and work their issues out. I agree she had a split second to decided but at that point only Damon knew he was feeding on vampires.. He bit caroline on the lip and got a taste of her blood and went crazy and disappeared to go confront the Dr and that is how Damon came into the picture. So Caroline and Elena had no clue what he was but I feel like she would have just snapped his neck and Damon could have told them what he found out about from the Dr. and they could have just locked him up in the cellar like the brothers do to each other when they get out of hand and figured something else out. I know its far fetch but I think that is what caroline meant.. cause old Elena never accepted that there was only one way to solve a problem if it meant killin someone... other than herself of course. Lets just face it... Caroline has terrible luck with guys!! Blame the writers for that one. I mean the writers wrote that. It's not really Elena who chose it for some reason. The writers wanted to get rid of that character and stop paying the actors so they made Elena kill him to save Damon. Easy. Wash hands. LOL
Ya I agree but they need to do something because the ratings aren't really getting any better. It doesn't help DE though they Damon has constantly been told that they won't work and that people don't forget their first love, which is Stefan, in Elena's case. He kind of needs to get over his insecurities I feel like because she had done more than enough to prove to him she is serious. This I agree with! Damon does need to do this but in order to do this Damon needs to learn to love himself. Deep down Damon hates being a vampire and he hates himself for it. He has been hurt by his dad, Kat and his own brother. So honestly he has issues and if there was a vampire thera-pist I'd send him to one because he is worthy of love especially Elena's!
I also agree that I feel the whole Stelena thing is way too far pass recovery but it just makes me laugh how many times always was used the first seasons and everyone describe stolen as an epic love and that is why people have hope. People also just like to point out that they think stefan actually does love her more because he was able to fight off compulsion for her and Damon couldn't. I know its a stretch and Im not a huge fan of steroline just because she is his new lexi i feel like. That Damon didn't fight off the compulsion is funny. He did fight it off for as long as he possibly could. Again it's the writers that choose how they want the characters to deal with certain situations. How a vampire deals with certain things would be the same with humans. In a robbery are you the one to curl up and cry or are you the one who is calm and listen to orders? We all act differently and react to situations differently. It doesn't mean that she is a coward because she curled up in a ball and the calm one is more brave! get my point?
Also in regards to the ratings you can blame the SE's for that one. Just imagine if the roles were switched. The ratings were high because both fan bases were watching season 1-4 waiting for their couple. had the DE's got sick of the triangle in season 2 and stopped watching the show would have been cancelled. There are too many DE fans and if we jumped shipped the ratings would cease. But now that SE's jumped ship along with some DE's sick of the DE back & forth and her not choosing Damon at the end of season 3 the ratings just dropped. They didn't plummet but dropped. There are enough loyal fans and DE's to keep the show afloat.
And going back to her choosing Damon after only six episodes. It is said that when a vampire turns their feelings are heightened. Now keep with me here..... So when she turned her feelings for Stefan and Damon heightened naturally because she was a vampire. But her feelings that she locked in that cabinet exploded out of it and then by her not being able to hide them anymore she chose him. But I will say this. If she chose Damon over Stefan once her feelings for both were heightened maybe just maybe those feelings she was shame hiding heightened MORE for Damon than Stefan. This is why she couldn't ignore it. As a vampire she felt too much and she couldn't ignore it. She tried even after the first couple of episodes to be loyal to Stefan but she knew her heart was with Damon even though human Elena and even newbie Elena tried hard to fight that love. She knew she couldn't anymore and when Stefan gave her the freedom to go she took it.
great discussion though!! |
|
I know Stelenas that are still holding out hope that they will come full circle even though they seem like they are not going to go there again. 
