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Post by missmystic on Feb 12, 2015 16:09:11 GMT -5
Responding to some of the new points... I mean I will never disagree that she had feelings for Damon when she was with Stefan I get that and so did he hence the whole road trip to denver to figure out what she really wanted....& like I said is that is the hardest part to grasp because everyone knew that she was kind of following in Katherine's footsteps of playing both brothers and even after that and admitting she loved Damon she still picked Stefan in a life or death situation. Felt like Stelena fans kind of got robbed because The whole 2-3 seasons Damon was playing his way in and they had been waiting for her to pick and she finally did & then it got taken away like 6 episodes into season 4. I think it also makes a lot of people mad that Stefan from the beginning was there for only Elena but Damon was only there to make Stefan miserable and to be reunited with Katherine... then after he found out she didn't care anything about him he turned his sights on Elena. Kind of felt like hey she would be a good rebound and it would really piss my brother off... hence one of the reasons he took her to Georgia without her say. As far as Elena and Damon's relationship and how it grew, we know she was in love with him by 3x01, but we also know you don't fall in love with someone at one point in time. She had feelings for him that were building up but she didn't quite know how to deal with them and she was kind of still with stefan and hanging onto their relationship. I feel like she and Damon had plenty of bonding moments leasing up to when she died - road trip to Georgia, dinner parties that Elena threw (like trying to win over Jenna), road trip to go find Stefan. There were just small moments of when they would really start to click. And I get the whole revenge thing, I really do I mean I would be so pissed off if it was me & ya Elena/Katherine said the whole monster thing but he did prove her right? I mean i just feel if someone is in love with someone even if they hurt you .. you don't instantly go out and try to hurt them.. I mean i guess you can but you do something that you can kind of take back later on and let say not kill someone. & even in season 6 when Elena tells stefan she kissed that hospital guy.. forgot his name but stefan tells her not to tell Damon and she ask why so he doesn't go kill people? I just don't see that as healthy I know it is super contradicting and thats what I was trying to say... I feel like she is taking the Stefan approach to being a vampire!! and I know why he was being mean but Idk I just feel like if your brother saves your life you don't try and talk to his girl... like let them work themselves out of it without your help then you can get your chance... I know that isn't how it works in the real world but they don't really live int he real world in mystic Falls. lmao I agree she had a split second to decided but at that point only Damon knew he was feeding on vampires.. He bit caroline on the lip and got a taste of her blood and went crazy and disappeared to go confront the Dr and that is how Damon came into the picture. So Caroline and Elena had no clue what he was but I feel like she would have just snapped his neck and Damon could have told them what he found out about from the Dr. and they could have just locked him up in the cellar like the brothers do to each other when they get out of hand and figured something else out. I know its far fetch but I think that is what caroline meant.. cause old Elena never accepted that there was only one way to solve a problem if it meant killin someone... other than herself of course. Lets just face it... Caroline has terrible luck with guys!! Ya I agree but they need to do something because the ratings aren't really getting any better. It doesn't help DE though they Damon has constantly been told that they won't work and that people don't forget their first love, which is Stefan, in Elena's case. He kind of needs to get over his insecurities I feel like because she had done more than enough to prove to him she is serious. I also agree that I feel the whole Stelena thing is way too far pass recovery but it just makes me laugh how many times always was used the first seasons and everyone describe stolen as an epic love and that is why people have hope. People also just like to point out that they think stefan actually does love her more because he was able to fight off compulsion for her and Damon couldn't. I know its a stretch and Im not a huge fan of steroline just because she is his new lexi i feel like. great discussion though!! Ok, it took me a while to get to this because its an intense subject and I needed to make sure I had the time to respond properly :-) Plus then I had to catch up on everything everyone was already saying. But anyways, ok, let me start by saying welcome and glad to have you here! We don't have very many active Stelena's on the board anymore, so we don't get to have these kinds of discussions much these days. Let me just say that I really appreciate your well thought out responses and how your points are coming from somewhere genuine and not just Shipper War Rage. It's honestly nice to have a mature discussion with different viewpoints! Ok, onto the subject at hand. I'm going to start by explaining why I am a Delena shipper. Afterwards I will respond to some of your comments individually. I started watching TVD from the first episode. And as we all know, in the beginning Damon was the villain and Stefan was the hero, and Stelena was the romance. I don't think anyone can deny that that's the way this show began. But I will tell you that my first real problem with the show was that I was not invested in Stefan and Elena's romance. It felt ... I don't know, kind of passionless, almost dull. It was easy, and comfortable, and ... I don’t know, I just didn't feel any fire between them. I liked the characters, but I found myself thinking how if they broke up or something bad happened between them, I wouldn't really care. It didn't bother me. But then, we got this moment where Damon, this seemingly evil and unredeemable character, suddenly briefly let it show that he might have a heart underneath all that darkness. He started visibly being affected by things Elena said and did. He started caring if she lived or died. He seemed to genuinely enjoy her company. And because it was out of character for his usually villainous self, it became very compelling! It's that classic romantic archetype of the Bad Boy who begins to change for the love of a woman. There's a reason it is a common type of story lol. Everyone loves it! When it became clear that Damon was genuinely falling in love with Elena, it became even more of a great romance. Because now we had this real triangle problem. Damon loved Elena, but he also loved his brother. And Elena loved Stefan, but at the same time you could clearly see moments where she was more herself around Damon, more comfortable, more strong. I started to feel like they were both encouraging each other to grow, challenging one another. But Damon still had a long long way to go, and he made a lot of really terrible choices and mistakes. He had to work hard to earn forgiveness and redemption. But that was also a great storyline, and romantic. All the while, Elena's romance with Stefan remained very bland for me. There were sweet moments, and I definitely believe there was love between them. But it just wasn’t a great romance for me. I was excited about the idea of Damon redeeming himself and becoming a hero and winning her heart. It was such an epic idea. And they followed through with it. They showed each of them growing and changing, they showed the progress of the relationship. And I feel they have honestly earned their love as it stands now. That is not to say that there haven’t been some questionable moments and some bad decisions (and some really bad writing). I certainly won't pretend there hasn't been. But as a whole, over the course of 5 and a half seasons, I have been swept away by the drama and the romance of Damon and Elena, and I just never felt that way about Stefan and Elena. That's the most basic reason I can give as to why I am a Delena shipper instead of a Stelena shipper. The more complicated stuff would get into all the arguments about who really is the Bad Brother, and who is really the Hero. Stefan has done far more despicable and terrible things than Damon ever did. But because he didn't do most of them to any of the main characters, and because he did most of them earlier on in history, they get overlooked or forgotten too easily. That's something that bothers me a lot about Stefan. He is pardoned for all his terrible deeds so easily, but Damon is never allowed to live anything down. Stefan was a serial killer. He murdered hundreds and hundreds of people, including children. He tells lies constantly. He lets Damon take the blame for things and doesn't defend him, even though Damon always defends Stefan (like when they drew straws to see who would turn Bonnie's mom into a vampire, and Stefan drew the short straw but Damon did it anyways to protect him. But Stefan never told anyone Damon did that, he just let Damon get hated and never defended him). Stefan threatened to drive Elena off the bridge where her parents died. That was one of the most traumatic scenes TVD has done! He took the girl he is supposed to love to the place where her life was ruined by the death of her parents, and then he threatened to kill her there in the same way they had died. That was unforgivable to me. And yet, everyone forgave him like almost immediately, and no one ever brings it up. Damon is constantly making the hard choices, doing things for people but letting other people take the credit. To me that is what a hero is. Whereas Stefan pretends to be a hero, but he lets people take the blame for him, and he constantly makes comments about how terrible Damon is even when he knows it's not true. He let Damon think he killed Zach's baby all these years! And for what? Just so he could keep making Damon feel guilty about it? He spins these little lies that seem to blend into the conversations so easily that no one notices and no one calls him on it. Like when he told Elena that he knew Katherine had taken over her and that’s why he didn't do anything with her at the motel when Katherine came onto him! That was a blatant lie, he had no idea it was Katherine until he and Caroline talked about it later! Or when he told Elena that he told her the truth about him being a vampire because he loved her. That was a lie too! He didn't tell her anything, she figured it out herself and he wasn't strong enough to compel her to forget! Or when he told Rebekah that he and Elena broke up because Elena slept with Damon. That was also a complete lie! They broke up BEFORE she slept with Damon, and he was the one who ended it. All these little lies and twistings of the truth, and all the times he's let Damon be the bad guy even when he should have defended him. And all the murders he's committed that no one ever yells at him for. These are the reasons why I don't see him as the hero. To me Damon is the hero, and therefore Damon should get the girl in the end lol. That's why I am a Delena Shipper.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 12, 2015 16:54:35 GMT -5
Responding to some of the new points... I mean I will never disagree that she had feelings for Damon when she was with Stefan I get that and so did he hence the whole road trip to denver to figure out what she really wanted....& like I said is that is the hardest part to grasp because everyone knew that she was kind of following in Katherine's footsteps of playing both brothers and even after that and admitting she loved Damon she still picked Stefan in a life or death situation. Felt like Stelena fans kind of got robbed because The whole 2-3 seasons Damon was playing his way in and they had been waiting for her to pick and she finally did & then it got taken away like 6 episodes into season 4. I think it also makes a lot of people mad that Stefan from the beginning was there for only Elena but Damon was only there to make Stefan miserable and to be reunited with Katherine... then after he found out she didn't care anything about him he turned his sights on Elena. Kind of felt like hey she would be a good rebound and it would really piss my brother off... hence one of the reasons he took her to Georgia without her say. As far as Elena and Damon's relationship and how it grew, we know she was in love with him by 3x01, but we also know you don't fall in love with someone at one point in time. She had feelings for him that were building up but she didn't quite know how to deal with them and she was kind of still with stefan and hanging onto their relationship. I feel like she and Damon had plenty of bonding moments leasing up to when she died - road trip to Georgia, dinner parties that Elena threw (like trying to win over Jenna), road trip to go find Stefan. There were just small moments of when they would really start to click. And I get the whole revenge thing, I really do I mean I would be so pissed off if it was me & ya Elena/Katherine said the whole monster thing but he did prove her right? I mean i just feel if someone is in love with someone even if they hurt you .. you don't instantly go out and try to hurt them.. I mean i guess you can but you do something that you can kind of take back later on and let say not kill someone. & even in season 6 when Elena tells stefan she kissed that hospital guy.. forgot his name but stefan tells her not to tell Damon and she ask why so he doesn't go kill people? I just don't see that as healthy I know it is super contradicting and thats what I was trying to say... I feel like she is taking the Stefan approach to being a vampire!! and I know why he was being mean but Idk I just feel like if your brother saves your life you don't try and talk to his girl... like let them work themselves out of it without your help then you can get your chance... I know that isn't how it works in the real world but they don't really live int he real world in mystic Falls. lmao I agree she had a split second to decided but at that point only Damon knew he was feeding on vampires.. He bit caroline on the lip and got a taste of her blood and went crazy and disappeared to go confront the Dr and that is how Damon came into the picture. So Caroline and Elena had no clue what he was but I feel like she would have just snapped his neck and Damon could have told them what he found out about from the Dr. and they could have just locked him up in the cellar like the brothers do to each other when they get out of hand and figured something else out. I know its far fetch but I think that is what caroline meant.. cause old Elena never accepted that there was only one way to solve a problem if it meant killin someone... other than herself of course. Lets just face it... Caroline has terrible luck with guys!! Ya I agree but they need to do something because the ratings aren't really getting any better. It doesn't help DE though they Damon has constantly been told that they won't work and that people don't forget their first love, which is Stefan, in Elena's case. He kind of needs to get over his insecurities I feel like because she had done more than enough to prove to him she is serious. I also agree that I feel the whole Stelena thing is way too far pass recovery but it just makes me laugh how many times always was used the first seasons and everyone describe stolen as an epic love and that is why people have hope. People also just like to point out that they think stefan actually does love her more because he was able to fight off compulsion for her and Damon couldn't. I know its a stretch and Im not a huge fan of steroline just because she is his new lexi i feel like. great discussion though!! Ok, it took me a while to get to this because its an intense subject and I needed to make sure I had the time to respond properly :-) Plus then I had to catch up on everything everyone was already saying. But anyways, ok, let me start by saying welcome and glad to have you here! We don't have very many active Stelena's on the board anymore, so we don't get to have these kinds of discussions much these days. Let me just say that I really appreciate your well thought out responses and how your points are coming from somewhere genuine and not just Shipper War Rage. It's honestly nice to have a mature discussion with different viewpoints! Ok, onto the subject at hand. I'm going to start by explaining why I am a Delena shipper. Afterwards I will respond to some of your comments individually. I started watching TVD from the first episode. And as we all know, in the beginning Damon was the villain and Stefan was the hero, and Stelena was the romance. I don't think anyone can deny that that's the way this show began. But I will tell you that my first real problem with the show was that I was not invested in Stefan and Elena's romance. It felt ... I don't know, kind of passionless, almost dull. It was easy, and comfortable, and ... I don’t know, I just didn't feel any fire between them. I liked the characters, but I found myself thinking how if they broke up or something bad happened between them, I wouldn't really care. It didn't bother me. But then, we got this moment where Damon, this seemingly evil and unredeemable character, suddenly briefly let it show that he might have a heart underneath all that darkness. He started visibly being affected by things Elena said and did. He started caring if she lived or died. He seemed to genuinely enjoy her company. And because it was out of character for his usually villainous self, it became very compelling! It's that classic romantic archetype of the Bad Boy who begins to change for the love of a woman. There's a reason it is a common type of story lol. Everyone loves it! When it became clear that Damon was genuinely falling in love with Elena, it became even more of a great romance. Because now we had this real triangle problem. Damon loved Elena, but he also loved his brother. And Elena loved Stefan, but at the same time you could clearly see moments where she was more herself around Damon, more comfortable, more strong. I started to feel like they were both encouraging each other to grow, challenging one another. But Damon still had a long long way to go, and he made a lot of really terrible choices and mistakes. He had to work hard to earn forgiveness and redemption. But that was also a great storyline, and romantic. All the while, Elena's romance with Stefan remained very bland for me. There were sweet moments, and I definitely believe there was love between them. But it just wasn’t a great romance for me. I was excited about the idea of Damon redeeming himself and becoming a hero and winning her heart. It was such an epic idea. And they followed through with it. They showed each of them growing and changing, they showed the progress of the relationship. And I feel they have honestly earned their love as it stands now. That is not to say that there haven’t been some questionable moments and some bad decisions (and some really bad writing). I certainly won't pretend there hasn't been. But as a whole, over the course of 5 and a half seasons, I have been swept away by the drama and the romance of Damon and Elena, and I just never felt that way about Stefan and Elena. That's the most basic reason I can give as to why I am a Delena shipper instead of a Stelena shipper. The more complicated stuff would get into all the arguments about who really is the Bad Brother, and who is really the Hero. Stefan has done far more despicable and terrible things than Damon ever did. But because he didn't do most of them to any of the main characters, and because he did most of them earlier on in history, they get overlooked or forgotten too easily. That's something that bothers me a lot about Stefan. He is pardoned for all his terrible deeds so easily, but Damon is never allowed to live anything down. Stefan was a serial killer. He murdered hundreds and hundreds of people, including children. He tells lies constantly. He lets Damon take the blame for things and doesn't defend him, even though Damon always defends Stefan (like when they drew straws to see who would turn Bonnie's mom into a vampire, and Stefan drew the short straw but Damon did it anyways to protect him. But Stefan never told anyone Damon did that, he just let Damon get hated and never defended him). Stefan threatened to drive Elena off the bridge where her parents died. That was one of the most traumatic scenes TVD has done! He took the girl he is supposed to love to the place where her life was ruined by the death of her parents, and then he threatened to kill her there in the same way they had died. That was unforgivable to me. And yet, everyone forgave him like almost immediately, and no one ever brings it up.
Damon is constantly making the hard choices, doing things for people but letting other people take the credit. To me that is what a hero is. Whereas Stefan pretends to be a hero, but he lets people take the blame for him, and he constantly makes comments about how terrible Damon is even when he knows it's not true. He let Damon think he killed Zach's baby all these years! And for what? Just so he could keep making Damon feel guilty about it? He spins these little lies that seem to blend into the conversations so easily that no one notices and no one calls him on it. Like when he told Elena that he knew Katherine had taken over her and that’s why he didn't do anything with her at the motel when Katherine came onto him! That was a blatant lie, he had no idea it was Katherine until he and Caroline talked about it later! Or when he told Elena that he told her the truth about him being a vampire because he loved her. That was a lie too! He didn't tell her anything, she figured it out herself and he wasn't strong enough to compel her to forget! Or when he told Rebekah that he and Elena broke up because Elena slept with Damon. That was also a complete lie! They broke up BEFORE she slept with Damon, and he was the one who ended it. All these little lies and twistings of the truth, and all the times he's let Damon be the bad guy even when he should have defended him. And all the murders he's committed that no one ever yells at him for. These are the reasons why I don't see him as the hero. To me Damon is the hero, and therefore Damon should get the girl in the end lol. That's why I am a Delena Shipper. Bravo! This is exactly it....the biggest difference between Stefan and Damon and why I always scratch my head when people believe Stefan is really the hero. Yes, the show may call him the good brother, but we as the audience see it all and we are supposed to be critically thinking about what we see not just taking the words of characters as fact. The characters have parts of the story, but not all of it. We have all of it and we know what Stefan has done in the dark and conversely the ways Damon was the unsung hero. Elena found out about a few of those times, like Rose, but Damon didn't tell her. He doesn't want to be a hero. He doesn't want to tell people of all his good deeds. He just does them and that's that. That is a true hero to me. He is as tortured as Stefan by the wrong things he's done so for Damon if he happens to do one good thing it doesn't make him a hero. He has a lot of bad things to counter it. That's how Damon thinks. In the end neither brother is all black or all white. They are both shades of grey.
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Post by missmystic on Feb 12, 2015 17:50:33 GMT -5
Ok, now to respond to some of your comments.
That is the hardest part to grasp because everyone knew that she was kind of following in Katherine's footsteps of playing both brothers and even after that and admitting she loved Damon she still picked Stefan in a life or death situation. Felt like Stelena fans kind of got robbed because The whole 2-3 seasons Damon was playing his way in and they had been waiting for her to pick and she finally did & then it got taken away like 6 episodes into season 4.
Ok, so first of all, I think its interesting that this part of the story was upsetting for the both shipper fandoms. Delena fans honestly didn't like this part of the story at all either. In fact a lot of people stopped watching the show at this point. I can't say that I really understand why the writers made those choices. But I thought about it a lot, and this is how I rationalized the situation: We know Elena was in love with Damon, that is official cannon now. But Elena was a fiercely loyal person, and she believed in doing the right thing at all times above all else. Stefan, as she said, had been there for her at a time when she needed him, and in the way she needed him to be. I believe that she felt she was in his debt, that she owed him her loyalty. She was angry at herself for falling in love with Damon. She saw it as a betrayal. I think she chose Stefan out of the desire to do the right thing and to make amends for betraying him. I think she honestly believed it was simply the right thing to do. I think she also knew that it was all temporary, because they were vampires and she was human, so eventually it would end one way or the other. She did what she believed was right. But that doesn't mean it's what she wanted. And when she became a vampire, everything changed, because now she had to think about live in terms of centuries, and not just years. And also she was no longer able to pretend her feelings for Damon were nothing because the sire bond exposed the truth. We were told, unequivocally, that the sire bond could only manifest if there was real human love to begin with. That the love, in fact, was what created the sire bond. So that actually proved that Elena loved Damon.
I think it also makes a lot of people mad that Stefan from the beginning was there for only Elena but Damon was only there to make Stefan miserable and to be reunited with Katherine... then after he found out she didn't care anything about him he turned his sights on Elena. Kind of felt like hey she would be a good rebound and it would really piss my brother off... hence one of the reasons he took her to Georgia without her say.
I disagree with this very strongly. Stefan was there for Elena in the VERY beginning, sure. But there were many times that he wasn't there for her at all. And I'm not talking about him leaving with Klaus to save Damon. That was actually one of my favorite Stefan moments in time, one of the only times I felt like he was really being a hero. But no, I'm talking about the bridge incident, and how he only liked the version of her that he first met, but as she grew and changed as a person he kept judging her and finding fault with her, and not just loving her for who she was. Damon never judged her. Even when they were just starting to get to know each other, he liked her just the way she was, however that was. Damon often seemed to understand her better than anyone. In my opinion, that's why he took her to Georgia with him. He came to her rescue at the car crash scene, and she told him she knew about Katherine. He decided to take her with him where he was going, still on his Katherine mission, and I'm guessing HE wasn't even sure why he was bringing her. Most likely it was because he found himself craving her company, and because instinctively he knew she needed it. She needed a break, she needed some space from Stefan, and he genuinely wanted to help. He told her that he never compelled her because they were having fun and he wanted it to be real. He meant that. He didn't have anyone in his life at that point, and I think he honestly just liked her as a person.
And I get the whole revenge thing, I really do I mean I would be so pissed off if it was me & ya Elena/Katherine said the whole monster thing but he did prove her right? I mean I just feel if someone is in love with someone even if they hurt you .. you don't instantly go out and try to hurt them.. I mean I guess you can but you do something that you can kind of take back later on and let say not kill someone. & even in season 6 when Elena tells Stefan she kissed that hospital guy.. forgot his name but Stefan tells her not to tell Damon and she ask why so he doesn't go kill people? I just don't see that as healthy
This part of the story for me was an example of really bad writing on the part of the showrunners. I don't think Damon would have ever really done that. It didn't fit with all the character develpoment he had made up until that point. I think they were going for drama and they went too far. But without arguing about the crappy writing of season 5, I will just say that I agree with you that Damon's actions after Katherine dumped him were horrible, and I hated it. But, as I said, I really think that whole storyline was just badly written. As for what Elena said about Damon killing people if he found out she had kissed someone, you have to remember that this is after she's had her memories changed. If she could only remember all the bad things Stefan had ever done, what do you think she would say about him? Ripper, serial killer, child killer, blood crazed monster. She was seeing the worst possible sides of Damon in her mind, so she made a nasty comment. That doesn't make it the truth. That's just what she was thinking at the time. The real Elena with her memories intact would not have said or thought that about Damon.
I know it is super contradicting and thats what I was trying to say... I feel like she is taking the Stefan approach to being a vampire!! and I know why he was being mean but Idk I just feel like if your brother saves your life you don't try and talk to his girl... like let them work themselves out of it without your help then you can get your chance... I know that isn't how it works in the real world but they don't really live int he real world in mystic Falls. lmao
So I actually think that is exactly what Damon did. He didn't go after Elena. He didn't try to seduce her, or take her from Stefan. In fact he said specifically that he didnt think he deserved her, but that Stefan did. And he compelled Elena to forget him telling her he loved her so that it wouldn't influence her feelings towards Stefan. He didn't make her do anything, he didn't try to convince her he was the better man. In fact he mostly told her he was bad and she should just accept it and stop expecting him to be more. She fell for him all on her own. He did kiss her a couple of times while Stefan was still in the picture, that is true. But the first time I think we can agree that he was still pretty lost in his darkness at the time, and he really wasn't thinking about what he was doing. Plus, it turned out to be Katherine he had kissed anyways. The second time was while Stefan had disapeared and made it clear to Damon that he wasn't coming back and that he and Elena were over. Yes its true that Stefan was doing that to protect Damon, but Damon didn't know that at the time. And he felt like Stefan had abandoned Elena. And again, he was still growing as a person. And other than those 2 times, Damon did not go after Elena in any other way, and she made her own decisions.
I agree she had a split second to decided but at that point only Damon knew he was feeding on vampires.. He bit Caroline on the lip and got a taste of her blood and went crazy and disappeared to go confront the Dr and that is how Damon came into the picture. So Caroline and Elena had no clue what he was but I feel like she would have just snapped his neck and Damon could have told them what he found out about from the Dr. and they could have just locked him up in the cellar like the brothers do to each other when they get out of hand and figured something else out. I know its far fetch but I think that is what Caroline meant.. cause old Elena never accepted that there was only one way to solve a problem if it meant killin someone... other than herself of course. Lets just face it... Caroline has terrible luck with guys!!
This I actually agree with you about. I think it was very OOC of Elena to kill that guy. But I blame that one on bad writing personally. I reallt hated most of season 5 lol, in case you haven't picked up on that. I just think they were all over the place, making the characters do things they would never normally do. And changing the mythology all around, and lots of other stupid stuff. Very frustrating.
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