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Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 13, 2015 8:48:44 GMT -5
A FRACTURED FAMILY — As Julian (guest star Todd Lasance) and Lily (guest star Annie Wersching) throw a party to celebrate Mary Louise (guest star Teressa Liane) and Nora’s (guest star Scarlett Byrne) anniversary, Stefan (Paul Wesley) and Damon (Ian Somerhalder) set in motion a risky plan to eliminate a new threat posed by Julian. Meanwhile, following a major revelation uncovered by Valerie (guest star Elizabeth Blackmore), Caroline (Candice King) is forced to face her new reality, even as it threatens to destroy her relationship with Stefan. Finally, determined to do what’s best for her family, Lily makes the most difficult decision of her life. Michael Malarkey and Zach Roerig also star. Leslie Libman directed the episode written by Brett Matthews (#708). Original airdate 12/3/2015.
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Post by Somerhaldered on Dec 3, 2015 21:06:20 GMT -5
This was me through most of this episode:  |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 3, 2015 21:51:41 GMT -5
This was me through most of this episode: Unfortunately, me, too. I already forgot what happened... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 6:02:53 GMT -5
Lily's death is the most anti-climatic thing ever. So Julian reversed such a major spell that connected the lives of them together but never bothers to mention it ever. Even the way she was carrying herself when it came to the two choices of who she had to kill and her reaction and speech seemed obvious she would not kill either, but Julian never catches on that she'd turn the weapon on herself to take him out with her? Then after she stakes herself he drops the line about them not being linked anymore and vamp speeds out of the room, I mean the way JP went about that scene made me laugh more than anything. Julian didn't even bother to stick around for final goodbyes.
And of course with the opening three years scene, we were led to believe that Lily wasn't dead, so the whole time I was thinking that this death scene was just for show and that she'd end up getting saved somehow. Way to shoot yourself in the foot and ruining what would be an emotional impact for some viewers who cared about the character. Also the way they went about Damon's werewolf hallucination was a bit lame. It wasn't like how they usually do when it comes to hallucinating the past/some type of emotional subconscious in the back of one's mind. It was like Lily was really there, and dressed in modern times. It didn't feel like a hallucination and Damon's response to her conflicted with how he perceived her in the episode, especially if they really don't have a moment in the coming episodes where Damon likely 'reflects' on his last moments with his mother, wishing he said something different, instead of the plot continuing on and them focusing on other things. Then it'd make some sort of sense. But I digress. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 7, 2015 7:36:31 GMT -5
Lily's death is the most anti-climatic thing ever. So Julian reversed such a major spell that connected the lives of them together but never bothers to mention it ever. Even the way she was carrying herself when it came to the two choices of who she had to kill and her reaction and speech seemed obvious she would not kill either, but Julian never catches on that she'd turn the weapon on herself to take him out with her? Then after she stakes herself he drops the line about them not being linked anymore and vamp speeds out of the room, I mean the way JP went about that scene made me laugh more than anything. Julian didn't even bother to stick around for final goodbyes.
And of course with the opening three years scene, we were led to believe that Lily wasn't dead, so the whole time I was thinking that this death scene was just for show and that she'd end up getting saved somehow. Way to shoot yourself in the foot and ruining what would be an emotional impact for some viewers who cared about the character. Also the way they went about Damon's werewolf hallucination was a bit lame. It wasn't like how they usually do when it comes to hallucinating the past/some type of emotional subconscious in the back of one's mind. It was like Lily was really there, and dressed in modern times. It didn't feel like a hallucination and Damon's response to her conflicted with how he perceived her in the episode, especially if they really don't have a moment in the coming episodes where Damon likely 'reflects' on his last moments with his mother, wishing he said something different, instead of the plot continuing on and them focusing on other things. Then it'd make some sort of sense. But I digress. Yeah they aren't trying very hard anymore to write the stories to make sense. I think it was enough that we see Damon had remorse for his decision about not saying goodbye in a decent way to his mother. It's not as if Damon would make that known. He's always got so much regret and guilt in his head that he never tells anyone so I don't think it would be OOC that we would never know he felt bad about it until he was 'out of his mind' hallucinating due to werewolf venom. The venom doesn't really hold the same impact that it used to since there are multiple ways he can be cured now so it's sort of 'yawn.' It's like the vampire flu these days...LOL |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 11:24:32 GMT -5
Lily's death is the most anti-climatic thing ever. So Julian reversed such a major spell that connected the lives of them together but never bothers to mention it ever. Even the way she was carrying herself when it came to the two choices of who she had to kill and her reaction and speech seemed obvious she would not kill either, but Julian never catches on that she'd turn the weapon on herself to take him out with her? Then after she stakes herself he drops the line about them not being linked anymore and vamp speeds out of the room, I mean the way JP went about that scene made me laugh more than anything. Julian didn't even bother to stick around for final goodbyes.
And of course with the opening three years scene, we were led to believe that Lily wasn't dead, so the whole time I was thinking that this death scene was just for show and that she'd end up getting saved somehow. Way to shoot yourself in the foot and ruining what would be an emotional impact for some viewers who cared about the character. Also the way they went about Damon's werewolf hallucination was a bit lame. It wasn't like how they usually do when it comes to hallucinating the past/some type of emotional subconscious in the back of one's mind. It was like Lily was really there, and dressed in modern times. It didn't feel like a hallucination and Damon's response to her conflicted with how he perceived her in the episode, especially if they really don't have a moment in the coming episodes where Damon likely 'reflects' on his last moments with his mother, wishing he said something different, instead of the plot continuing on and them focusing on other things. Then it'd make some sort of sense. But I digress. Yeah they aren't trying very hard anymore to write the stories to make sense. I think it was enough that we see Damon had remorse for his decision about not saying goodbye in a decent way to his mother. It's not as if Damon would make that known. He's always got so much regret and guilt in his head that he never tells anyone so I don't think it would be OOC that we would never know he felt bad about it until he was 'out of his mind' hallucinating due to werewolf venom. The venom doesn't really hold the same impact that it used to since there are multiple ways he can be cured now so it's sort of 'yawn.' It's like the vampire flu these days...LOL Though I do wonder if we'll get more to that scene and hallucination, it seemed a bit short, but could have been cut until we get there in present time. It'd be nice to get at least one flashback of a moment where Lily did something nice for them and the werewolf venom brings that memory to the forefront, I wonder if Lily being nice to them ever exists lol. But that aside the quality of the hallucination just felt odd, like not that much thought put into it. I almost felt that something else had happened, like maybe trying to save Lily but it didn't work out. But anyways yada yada, that's just my nitpick lol.
I guess we can agree that the emotional impact on Lily and her sons just felt flat all around. I don't even get why Stefan feels so enamored with her when he's been treated just as crappy by her as Damon has. She hasn't really treated any of them like a mother until this final episode. It leaves a sour taste in your mouth knowing this could have been written better and her leaving could have left more of an impact if she wasn't so antagonistic against them in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 14:23:55 GMT -5
Other small mentions: that scene where Lily and Julian are dancing to the song at that party, they did say that Beau was the one who sang that song right, if I'm remembering correctly. And if so, how did he become mute? I still have a feeling Beau knows something or learns something that he won't be able to speak in time/or get his point across (of course there's pen and paper and witchy woo woo writings on sand and wall or whatever but that'd be too easy lol). Also when is his hunter's mark ever going to come into play again? Or when are we going to learn more about this particular heretic in general. It feels like one of the only heretics that are still a mystery and he's also the only male left. I think he may get killed to start off the threat of the Hunter's arc and all.
Though maybe all the heretics wind up getting killed by the hunters or something since we haven't really seen any of them in these future flashbacks (there was that future scene of Stefan burning his car and taking Valerie's diary with him so perhaps that could be another hint at them being dead at that point) and seems like we can rule out the mystery hunter girl being Lily. Of course with the actor looking like a Nina doppelganger maybe that much was already obvious.
And Enzo. He feels like he gets thrown where ever to fill screen time and Matt feels in the same vein. They don't really feel like part of any particular group. Most of Matt's scenes this season has taken place in his car, with someone sitting in it with him or him on the phone. Anyways I'm not sure why Matt's all over Enzo when he's hardly the threat compared to the heretics that had taken over the town. Of course I'm not sure where things will stand now with Lily out of the picture. She was the one that had them under lock and key and Julian obviously views things differently. Speaking of Enzo and his love life. I feel like I missed the memo and still don't understand why he had those romantic feelings for Lily at all. She never gave any impression that she viewed him more than another member of her heretic family. What made him fall in love with her? With Bonenzo confirmed from the flash forward, I didn't really think Lily and Enzo would get a romantic scene like a kiss but I guess that was some form of closure since he had the 'didn't get the girl' line. I also didn't get Matt's line of 'Damon didn't want you'. Again am I missing something? When did a scene like that take place? Last thing I knew, Damon wanted to be there for Enzo to get him through his turned off humanity for Maggy (it's been so long that may not have even been here name) and then Enzo died and never had any significant scenes with Damon ever again because of all the Bamon besties scenes. Also Matt and Damon barely talk so how would Matt know lol. Again characters speaking for other characters.
And lastly, I'm not sure where Nora and Mary will stand now. Can these two ever go an episode without being at each other's throats? I didn't expect them to end up being broken up by the end of the episode. But again one conflict with Mary and Nora's up in arms and once again walks away from her. Man makes you wonder how this relationship even lasted for 133 years. Also it feels relatively convenient that Mary and Nora break up this episode and next episode description mentions Nora and Bonnie conversing and becoming unlikely friends. It always feels like Nora has the more wondering eye of the two. Maybe she has a certain type and Mary just doesn't cut it. But I guess we'll see.
This was meant to be a small post but yeah. Not that this episode in particular was over the top with a lot of things to discuss, I'm just wondering where the plot is even heading with some characters. Eight episodes in and it still feels like we have no grasp of what this season's end goal is.
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Post by missmystic on Dec 7, 2015 14:58:24 GMT -5
Well, I don't have a whole lot to say about this episode I guess, which is probably part of why I haven't said anything yet lol. Like the rest of you I found it fairly blah. I hated Lily, so I really feel nothing about her death except good riddance. I'm not sure I really agree with what they wrote for Damon in that situation though. I know he was angry and bitter, but that seemed unlikely to me what he did. He made that big speech about doing right by Elena, but I'm sure he knows full well that she would never have condoned his behavior in that moment. I feel like if she had been standing there he wouldn't have done that. What I think would have made more sense is for him to just walk away and not say goodbye at all. But maybe that's just me.
And now we'll have Stefan and Damon at odds once again. That look on Stefan's face was pure disgust. Awesome ... exactly when is this whole brotherly love story supposed to come into play? How is this plot line facilitating that in any way? I swear to god sometimes these writers just come across as completely oblivious and inconsistent to the point of sheer ludicrousness.
Meanwhile, the scenes in the future are getting annoying. At first it seemed like they were going in some kind of order, but now I feel like they are throwing random things at us and its making even less sense than it did in the beginning. I don't even care anymore lol.
As for the side character, I totally agree with AnBu about the whole Matt and Enzo thing. They are wasting everyone's time again with a side plot that no one cares about. So dumb. And Nora and Mary Louise ... I don't know. Up until now I was feeling sorry for ML because of the way Nora treated her. But in this episode she really came across as an annoying idiot. Now I just kind of wish she would go away lol.
Caroline and Stefan .... nothing. I feel nothing, don't care.
I miss Delena.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 16:42:21 GMT -5
Well, I don't have a whole lot to say about this episode I guess, which is probably part of why I haven't said anything yet lol. Like the rest of you I found it fairly blah. I hated Lily, so I really feel nothing about her death except good riddance. I'm not sure I really agree with what they wrote for Damon in that situation though. I know he was angry and bitter, but that seemed unlikely to me what he did. He made that big speech about doing right by Elena, but I'm sure he knows full well that she would never have condoned his behavior in that moment. I feel like if she had been standing there he wouldn't have done that. What I think would have made more sense is for him to just walk away and not say goodbye at all. But maybe that's just me.
And now we'll have Stefan and Damon at odds once again. That look on Stefan's face was pure disgust. Awesome ... exactly when is this whole brotherly love story supposed to come into play? How is this plot line facilitating that in any way? I swear to god sometimes these writers just come across as completely oblivious and inconsistent to the point of sheer ludicrousness.
Meanwhile, the scenes in the future are getting annoying. At first it seemed like they were going in some kind of order, but now I feel like they are throwing random things at us and its making even less sense than it did in the beginning. I don't even care anymore lol.
As for the side character, I totally agree with AnBu about the whole Matt and Enzo thing. They are wasting everyone's time again with a side plot that no one cares about. So dumb. And Nora and Mary Louise ... I don't know. Up until now I was feeling sorry for ML because of the way Nora treated her. But in this episode she really came across as an annoying idiot. Now I just kind of wish she would go away lol.
Caroline and Stefan .... nothing. I feel nothing, don't care.
I miss Delena.
That's a good point you made about Damon in regards to his mother. If Elena's influence was there, his ending speech may have turned out differently. The confrontation and slap from Lily would have likely still happen since those feelings of resentment are still there, but on Lily's dying bed I can imagine Elena encouraging Damon to say his final goodbyes to Lily so it wouldn't be something he'd regret for decades down the line (and likely something Elena wished she could have done with her own mother etc.) however they go about it. The future flash forward shows Damon apologizing to his mother despite his final words to her so something of the sort seems like it would have been a thing.
Of course I almost forgot about the whole 'do right by Elena' thing anyways, I'm not sure if the writers even remembered themselves lol. It seems like something that has been dropped and only was meant to appease for one episode or something. I'm still wondering whether we'll get the answer to Damon's letter he wrote about him finding out who he is, or if the rest of the season is going to be dedicated to tracking down and killing Juilian and/or running away from the hunters.
Though the scene above could have still happened without Elena's influence. Maybe if the writers actually wrote Defan being supportive of each other instead of constantly at odds for no reason whatsoever. Stefan, mama's boy or whatever, he apparently felt strongly for Lily. So why wasn't there some scene where the two could have just sat down and talked? Like let's say Damon says what he says to Lily and instead of having her die instantly, she's still there slowly mummifying and Stefan goes to find Damon and shares his feelings on the issue. It doesn't have to be in a self righteous, stop acting like a dick, snarky remarks type of convo. Just a sentimental conversation between brothers about their mother, Stefan pointing out how he knows she hasn't been the best mother to them and etc. Why is it so hard to have these two confide in each other like brothers?
The writers are capable of it, they've done a few scenes like that, that have really hit at home and made you feel for the relationship. Unfortunately the way the brothers reacted feels like the typical Stefan having the 'good/pure' reaction, feeling sympathetic towards his mother despite the fact while Damon is made to have the 'bad/antagonistic' reaction despite his feelings towards his mother being justified by her treatment of them when they were younger up till now. In last season's finale Stefan said something character development worthy of how he realized he needed his brother a lot more than he needed Elena and it felt as if he would be a support for Damon going into this season, yet most of Damon's early scenes had been with Bonnie and now Stefan and Damon are more at odds then they've ever been before lol. The writing just doesn't make sense.
Then Lily's scene where she slapped Damon felt laughable along the lines of her, 'What have I ever done to you?' question. She acts like she's the one who came out wanting a relationship with them while they rejected her when it's the other way around. They were disappointed at how she shunned them away for a new family. In fact I wonder if the reason Stefan feels so sympathetic with Lily is because of the speech she said to him, the one that Damon wrote, that got him out of his humanity. I don't remember if Stefan ever learned that Lily was just the mouthpiece of the speech while Damon was the heart behind the words.
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Post by Charlotte on Dec 7, 2015 18:19:11 GMT -5
Anbu, i really think you should be writing this show. I would watch this.
I wonder if the reason Stefan feels so sympathetic with Lily is because of the speech she said to him, the one that Damon wrote, that got him out of his humanity. I don't remember if Stefan ever learned that Lily was just the mouthpiece of the speech while Damon was the heart behind the words.
This would have been a great scene for Stefan to hear before Lily died. After her death, it doesn't really matter and seems like it would be cruel for Damon to share since he is protective of his little bro.
I think the whole character of Lilly was a waste. I don't really like the idea of Damon apologizing to his mother when he thinks he is dying. He could forgive her for all of the horrendous things she did to him, but I don't think he should apologize. It might be a fine line, but one that would make more sense for me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 20:09:57 GMT -5
Anbu, i really think you should be writing this show. I would watch this. I wonder if the reason Stefan feels so sympathetic with Lily is because of the speech she said to him, the one that Damon wrote, that got him out of his humanity. I don't remember if Stefan ever learned that Lily was just the mouthpiece of the speech while Damon was the heart behind the words.This would have been a great scene for Stefan to hear before Lily died. After her death, it doesn't really matter and seems like it would be cruel for Damon to share since he is protective of his little bro. I think the whole character of Lilly was a waste. I don't really like the idea of Damon apologizing to his mother when he thinks he is dying. He could forgive her for all of the horrendous things she did to him, but I don't think he should apologize. It might be a fine line, but one that would make more sense for me. Haha thanks! I agree with your point about Damon's apology. It'd also seem extremely cliché and cheesy to suddenly get all teary eyed and emotional just because she was dying in that moment. It'd be way too much of a stretch to say he forgave her for their childhood past, choosing the heretics over them, putting the spell on Elena/hiding her coffin etc. but I can possibly see an acknowledgement of her final moment. Finally putting her sons before herself, sacrificing her life to keep her sons safe.
In fact I see another opportunity that was missed. When Julian said she'd have to kill one or the other, choosing the heretics or the Salvatore family, Damon said, 'Kill me.' Before this episode, the preview made it seem as if the choice would be between Damon and Stefan, but it wasn't. So Damon saying that line made sense when it was him or Stefan, but with Valerie it was kind of a bit eh iffy. I can see why Damon said that, given his character but there's also no emotional impact with the two. Okay haha sorry but I just thought of two missed opportunities going on this tangent. Okay so the second one would be if Stefan was the one there. Imagine Stefan's response and also Lily sees that even after a century Damon is still the same boy who would take the blame upon himself so that Stefan wouldn't have to suffer, she was there when he did it the first time (well a time, that may not have been specifically the first moment) at the dinner table and now she's witness to this modern scene. She is the mother, who's supposed to be the protector of her kids, but she was always afraid to stand up and confront her husband. We could have also had a heartwarming Defan moment to go along with it. As a Salvatore moment, bring up their childhood and how Damon is always the one to protect him but he's never been able to do the same, heck throw in a, 'After 60 years, Elena is going to wake up and the first thing she wants to be able to do is run into your arms and never let go' so Stefan would then say, 'No kill me.' Lily will also get to witness the length her sons would go to protect each other, that all this time it wasn't about getting back at her, it was about protecting and being there for each other.
Though since it was supposed to be heretic or Salvatore, I guess having both Stefan and Damon there wouldn't fit and Julian saying, 'kill one son and leave the other' wouldn't make sense so things would have to be adjusted to fit this scenario.
Going back to the first opportunity, after Damon says his line about killing him, Lily of course doesn't and we get to the death scene. Here's where we could fit in a scene with Damon standing over his mother and why she didn't kill him. They could reference their earlier scene where she slapped him and obviously left on bad terms, and recall the other times the two had confrontations this season. So in essence a, 'I thought you hated me?' type of vibe. We'd get a speech from Lily to say the opposite, finally coming to love her sons and acknowledge her wrongdoings and how she couldn't live up to the mother that they deserved etc. then for Damon's part, as stated above, it's not going to be the whole sappy, I'm sorry mom, I shouldn't have said that type of stuff. But again just the acknowledgement of that final sacrifice, getting the courage to finally choose her sons over the man in her relationship, something that she wasn't able to do in the past.
Though I guess you could say that's just me nitpicking at the writing again. Otherwise I felt Damon's, 'Kill me' line was quite random and didn't amount to anything since there was no follow up or emotional impact to saying those words. I guess it's just about finding the right balance of Damon being harsh in his own right without coming off too antagonistic. Stefan suffers form a similar problem, sometimes he's sympathetic in a 'just because' way, like he just has to be because he's the 'good' one when he should feel towards Lily as Damon did since she pretty much threated him just as badly as Stefan (she shunned them both for the heretic family instead). This is why it'd be great for Defan to actually talk to each other and have meaningful scenes that aren't just full of sassy and snarky lines, where they actually sit down and hear each other out without it turning into an argument and then each going their own way, leading to plot drama. I just wish this relationship could develop and stay consistent, treat it like they did with Delena. It'd make the season at least a little more bearable, since Defan is really the only other relationship other than Delena with several seasons of develop and won't feel completely out of left field. It could have been the second best thing but they just can't seem to get it right lol.
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Post by missmystic on Dec 8, 2015 9:08:15 GMT -5
Anbu, i really think you should be writing this show. I would watch this. I wonder if the reason Stefan feels so sympathetic with Lily is because of the speech she said to him, the one that Damon wrote, that got him out of his humanity. I don't remember if Stefan ever learned that Lily was just the mouthpiece of the speech while Damon was the heart behind the words.This would have been a great scene for Stefan to hear before Lily died. After her death, it doesn't really matter and seems like it would be cruel for Damon to share since he is protective of his little bro. I think the whole character of Lilly was a waste. I don't really like the idea of Damon apologizing to his mother when he thinks he is dying. He could forgive her for all of the horrendous things she did to him, but I don't think he should apologize. It might be a fine line, but one that would make more sense for me. Haha thanks! I agree with your point about Damon's apology. It'd also seem extremely cliché and cheesy to suddenly get all teary eyed and emotional just because she was dying in that moment. It'd be way too much of a stretch to say he forgave her for their childhood past, choosing the heretics over them, putting the spell on Elena/hiding her coffin etc. but I can possibly see an acknowledgement of her final moment. Finally putting her sons before herself, sacrificing her life to keep her sons safe.
In fact I see another opportunity that was missed. When Julian said she'd have to kill one or the other, choosing the heretics or the Salvatore family, Damon said, 'Kill me.' Before this episode, the preview made it seem as if the choice would be between Damon and Stefan, but it wasn't. So Damon saying that line made sense when it was him or Stefan, but with Valerie it was kind of a bit eh iffy. I can see why Damon said that, given his character but there's also no emotional impact with the two. Okay haha sorry but I just thought of two missed opportunities going on this tangent. Okay so the second one would be if Stefan was the one there. Imagine Stefan's response and also Lily sees that even after a century Damon is still the same boy who would take the blame upon himself so that Stefan wouldn't have to suffer, she was there when he did it the first time (well a time, that may not have been specifically the first moment) at the dinner table and now she's witness to this modern scene. She is the mother, who's supposed to be the protector of her kids, but she was always afraid to stand up and confront her husband. We could have also had a heartwarming Defan moment to go along with it. As a Salvatore moment, bring up their childhood and how Damon is always the one to protect him but he's never been able to do the same, heck throw in a, 'After 60 years, Elena is going to wake up and the first thing she wants to be able to do is run into your arms and never let go' so Stefan would then say, 'No kill me.' Lily will also get to witness the length her sons would go to protect each other, that all this time it wasn't about getting back at her, it was about protecting and being there for each other.
Though since it was supposed to be heretic or Salvatore, I guess having both Stefan and Damon there wouldn't fit and Julian saying, 'kill one son and leave the other' wouldn't make sense so things would have to be adjusted to fit this scenario.
Going back to the first opportunity, after Damon says his line about killing him, Lily of course doesn't and we get to the death scene. Here's where we could fit in a scene with Damon standing over his mother and why she didn't kill him. They could reference their earlier scene where she slapped him and obviously left on bad terms, and recall the other times the two had confrontations this season. So in essence a, 'I thought you hated me?' type of vibe. We'd get a speech from Lily to say the opposite, finally coming to love her sons and acknowledge her wrongdoings and how she couldn't live up to the mother that they deserved etc. then for Damon's part, as stated above, it's not going to be the whole sappy, I'm sorry mom, I shouldn't have said that type of stuff. But again just the acknowledgement of that final sacrifice, getting the courage to finally choose her sons over the man in her relationship, something that she wasn't able to do in the past.
Though I guess you could say that's just me nitpicking at the writing again. Otherwise I felt Damon's, 'Kill me' line was quite random and didn't amount to anything since there was no follow up or emotional impact to saying those words. I guess it's just about finding the right balance of Damon being harsh in his own right without coming off too antagonistic. Stefan suffers form a similar problem, sometimes he's sympathetic in a 'just because' way, like he just has to be because he's the 'good' one when he should feel towards Lily as Damon did since she pretty much threated him just as badly as Stefan (she shunned them both for the heretic family instead). This is why it'd be great for Defan to actually talk to each other and have meaningful scenes that aren't just full of sassy and snarky lines, where they actually sit down and hear each other out without it turning into an argument and then each going their own way, leading to plot drama. I just wish this relationship could develop and stay consistent, treat it like they did with Delena. It'd make the season at least a little more bearable, since Defan is really the only other relationship other than Delena with several seasons of develop and won't feel completely out of left field. It could have been the second best thing but they just can't seem to get it right lol.
No you're right. A wasted opportunity is exactly what that was. Probably just for the sake of more Defan angst too, which is so stupid and unnecessary. Your ideas would have played out way more meaningfully.
Here's another way that scene could have played out:
Instead of having a long drawn out death as the "splinters" moved to her heart (which by the way was so dumb. Like why would that happen? Every other time a vampire has been staked it was insta-death. not to mention they left the opportunity for the heretics to save her, which they totally should have been able to do. Like they couldn't magically pull the splinters out of her heart? PLEASE! That was just stupid. But anyways, I digress lol) what they should have done is have the staking kill her the normal way, like within the space of a minute at most. Long enough for Julian to say his little line and bail, and then for Damon to be there. Damon could kneel down next to her looking all confused and ask her why she did that, genuinely not understanding because he really believed she didn't love him. And she could have just enough time to say something like "Because I love you." And then she could die and Damon wouldn't have to say anything. There wouldn't have to be this long sappy goodbye with everyone. Everyone else could come in the room a second later and freak out and ask what happened. And Valerie could tell them while Damon went off alone trying to figure out how to process what had happened.
Then we could have had scenes later on in the next episode or whatever where Stefan keeps trying to talk to Damon about how he's feeling about what happened, and Damon could keep brushing it off like he doesn't care, but we would of course see that he does and that it effected him. And then that scene in the future could mean a little more, because it could be about the fact that he feels guilty for not making peace with her before she died, and knowing that she died believing that he hated her. And it would create an opportunity for Damon and Stefan to bond because Stefan for once could have had the chance to notice that something deeper was going on with Damon and try to reach him and help, the way Elena used to.
But instead, they did what they did, and now Damon's the jerk again and Stefan is pissed. How original ... 
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2015 9:43:45 GMT -5
Haha thanks! I agree with your point about Damon's apology. It'd also seem extremely cliché and cheesy to suddenly get all teary eyed and emotional just because she was dying in that moment. It'd be way too much of a stretch to say he forgave her for their childhood past, choosing the heretics over them, putting the spell on Elena/hiding her coffin etc. but I can possibly see an acknowledgement of her final moment. Finally putting her sons before herself, sacrificing her life to keep her sons safe.
In fact I see another opportunity that was missed. When Julian said she'd have to kill one or the other, choosing the heretics or the Salvatore family, Damon said, 'Kill me.' Before this episode, the preview made it seem as if the choice would be between Damon and Stefan, but it wasn't. So Damon saying that line made sense when it was him or Stefan, but with Valerie it was kind of a bit eh iffy. I can see why Damon said that, given his character but there's also no emotional impact with the two. Okay haha sorry but I just thought of two missed opportunities going on this tangent. Okay so the second one would be if Stefan was the one there. Imagine Stefan's response and also Lily sees that even after a century Damon is still the same boy who would take the blame upon himself so that Stefan wouldn't have to suffer, she was there when he did it the first time (well a time, that may not have been specifically the first moment) at the dinner table and now she's witness to this modern scene. She is the mother, who's supposed to be the protector of her kids, but she was always afraid to stand up and confront her husband. We could have also had a heartwarming Defan moment to go along with it. As a Salvatore moment, bring up their childhood and how Damon is always the one to protect him but he's never been able to do the same, heck throw in a, 'After 60 years, Elena is going to wake up and the first thing she wants to be able to do is run into your arms and never let go' so Stefan would then say, 'No kill me.' Lily will also get to witness the length her sons would go to protect each other, that all this time it wasn't about getting back at her, it was about protecting and being there for each other.
Though since it was supposed to be heretic or Salvatore, I guess having both Stefan and Damon there wouldn't fit and Julian saying, 'kill one son and leave the other' wouldn't make sense so things would have to be adjusted to fit this scenario.
Going back to the first opportunity, after Damon says his line about killing him, Lily of course doesn't and we get to the death scene. Here's where we could fit in a scene with Damon standing over his mother and why she didn't kill him. They could reference their earlier scene where she slapped him and obviously left on bad terms, and recall the other times the two had confrontations this season. So in essence a, 'I thought you hated me?' type of vibe. We'd get a speech from Lily to say the opposite, finally coming to love her sons and acknowledge her wrongdoings and how she couldn't live up to the mother that they deserved etc. then for Damon's part, as stated above, it's not going to be the whole sappy, I'm sorry mom, I shouldn't have said that type of stuff. But again just the acknowledgement of that final sacrifice, getting the courage to finally choose her sons over the man in her relationship, something that she wasn't able to do in the past.
Though I guess you could say that's just me nitpicking at the writing again. Otherwise I felt Damon's, 'Kill me' line was quite random and didn't amount to anything since there was no follow up or emotional impact to saying those words. I guess it's just about finding the right balance of Damon being harsh in his own right without coming off too antagonistic. Stefan suffers form a similar problem, sometimes he's sympathetic in a 'just because' way, like he just has to be because he's the 'good' one when he should feel towards Lily as Damon did since she pretty much threated him just as badly as Stefan (she shunned them both for the heretic family instead). This is why it'd be great for Defan to actually talk to each other and have meaningful scenes that aren't just full of sassy and snarky lines, where they actually sit down and hear each other out without it turning into an argument and then each going their own way, leading to plot drama. I just wish this relationship could develop and stay consistent, treat it like they did with Delena. It'd make the season at least a little more bearable, since Defan is really the only other relationship other than Delena with several seasons of develop and won't feel completely out of left field. It could have been the second best thing but they just can't seem to get it right lol.
No you're right. A wasted opportunity is exactly what that was. Probably just for the sake of more Defan angst too, which is so stupid and unnecessary. Your ideas would have played out way more meaningfully.
Here's another way that scene could have played out:
Instead of having a long drawn out death as the "splinters" moved to her heart (which by the way was so dumb. Like why would that happen? Every other time a vampire has been staked it was insta-death. not to mention they left the opportunity for the heretics to save her, which they totally should have been able to do. Like they couldn't magically pull the splinters out of her heart? PLEASE! That was just stupid. But anyways, I digress lol) what they should have done is have the staking kill her the normal way, like within the space of a minute at most. Long enough for Julian to say his little line and bail, and then for Damon to be there. Damon could kneel down next to her looking all confused and ask her why she did that, genuinely not understanding because he really believed she didn't love him. And she could have just enough time to say something like "Because I love you." And then she could die and Damon wouldn't have to say anything. There wouldn't have to be this long sappy goodbye with everyone. Everyone else could come in the room a second later and freak out and ask what happened. And Valerie could tell them while Damon went off alone trying to figure out how to process what had happened.
Then we could have had scenes later on in the next episode or whatever where Stefan keeps trying to talk to Damon about how he's feeling about what happened, and Damon could keep brushing it off like he doesn't care, but we would of course see that he does and that it effected him. And then that scene in the future could mean a little more, because it could be about the fact that he feels guilty for not making peace with her before she died, and knowing that she died believing that he hated her. And it would create an opportunity for Damon and Stefan to bond because Stefan for once could have had the chance to notice that something deeper was going on with Damon and try to reach him and help, the way Elena used to.
But instead, they did what they did, and now Damon's the jerk again and Stefan is pissed. How original ...
Oh right staking is supposed to be insta-death/mummification lol. More so if she got staked right in the heart. Writers changing their canon in favor of what's convenient strikes again. Especially as you mentioned, the heretics were portrayed as strong and powerful with their magic in the beginning, they almost seem to be stronger than a normal witch since they can siphon compulsion with a simple touch, even Davina's way of lifting compulsion felt like a long drawn out and painful process. Anyways you also managed to make to make that scene ten times better than what we got in canon.
Your way also fits into the future flash forward since Lily would have died with her final words of loving Damon and never hearing his response. Then we get Damon apologizing to Lily's image, not being able to say it before she died. The way it was set up made it feel like we'd get something of the sort. Lily's final goodbye leading to some form of Salvatore bonding moment, some sentimental Defan moment, something! Yet all we get is the brothers being at odds again.
I swear if Stefan says something like, 'I hated what you said to mom before she died! And now you're going to have to live with that for the rest of your life!' and this is what causes the confrontation and tension between the two, I'm pulling my hair out lol.
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jan 2, 2016 13:59:25 GMT -5
I'm caught up and I have to say this like most of this season was great. Also to be fair on the staking they change that stuff so often plus it seem plausible as we never saw it do this before doesn't mean it can't. This season is great i wish episode 9 was on tv already here.
So far for me seasons are as follows
2 > 1 > 3 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 18:31:27 GMT -5
I'm caught up and I have to say this like most of this season was great. Also to be fair on the staking they change that stuff so often plus it seem plausible as we never saw it do this before doesn't mean it can't. This season is great i wish episode 9 was on tv already here. So far for me seasons are as follows 2 > 1 > 3 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 5 I think the only reason Lily didn't die when she got staked, is because the writers/JP wanted the characters to be able to say goodbye as she said her last words of redemption. Otherwise, every other instance of a vampire being staked in this show has led them to be mummified instantly, even on an Original like Elijah. TVD does happen to change it's rules for the mythology when it's convenient. Wolves being this rare species and now they're everywhere and their bite being fatal to vampires and there's absolutely no cure, but then Klaus says hello. That there was no way a vampire could ever return to being a human, and then we get Silas and the cure. The vampire 'age' is supposed to make one stronger but it's hardly taking into account now. Dying on the Other Side and no way to come back to the living, then we get this supernatural veil that comes down and everyone's back. And of course Damon and Bonnie when the veil came down, there was supposed to be no way to come back but then Kai comes in and conveniently has the item all he needed was a Bennett witch. So yeah when it comes to the supernatural and bending rules with magic, TVD has done that plenty of times. But there's some things you'd expect to stay consistent when it comes to the actual lore of vampires in general. Though if we assume the idea of 'we never saw it do this before doesn't mean it can't' then it's pretty much giving the writers permission to do all kinds of crazy things even when it doesn't make sense. Like Stefan and Damon being able to fuse into one body to become even stronger to take down a new threat.
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