Has What Stefan Done Equal/Exceed What Damon Did?

[Doppelgänger]

Ok so I'm opening up this can of worms. I keep seeing stuff which seems to be OLD about what Damon did to Elena and that somehow it is beyond forgiveness. However, I think Elena forgave Damon for all of it so how can we say it is beyond forgiveness since she did in fact forgive it? But now we have Stefan and we don't yet know how she is going to respond to the things HE did to her.

I personally feel that because the things he did to her were more toward her that it will be harder for her to forgive him. Also because they had a 'love' relationship which is supposed to be based upon trust it will be harder to forgive. It's hard to say with this show given how they have a penchant for sweeping certain things under the rug and forgetting them at unpredictable points in time but I don't see how what Damon did to her is any worse than what Stefan has done. I think actually what Stefan has done is far worse because of the established relationship he had with Elena.

Please discuss. I'm interested in seeing different perspectives on this. Me personally, if I had a love relationship with someone and felt betrayed by them I would have a much harder time forgiving that betrayal than someone I didn't have a love relationship with.

[Slash]

I've been in the camp that Stefan has been a bit worse. Damon is impulsive in what he does so it may not exactly be 'intentional', but more so just a 'heat of the moment' reaction out of him such as killing Jeremy or feeding her blood. Stefan's actions however are more precise/planned out. He knew Klaus was going to come after the Gang and when Elena came to ask him for help in protecting Jeremy, he told her he didn't care/not his problem/nope. He fed her his blood with the intent of driving her off a bridge and turning her. This is stuff he's had in mind prior to doing it compared to Damon's impulsiveness in combination with his emotional instability at times.

We'll have to wait and see how things with Stefan are handled though. Damon has killed Jeremy, Alaric twice, Vicki (Matt) and Mason (Tyler) yet these people have kind of swept what he's done under the rug as you put it and don't show any ill-will towards him now (Jeremy wanted to be his assistant shortly after when helping with Werewolves, Alaric is his best friend now where they look out for each other, Tyler is in a position of power now and hasn't made an attempt to kill Damon out of vengeance and Matt saved Damon's life after knowing what he did). For all we know, the show will go the route that while Stefan was good from the series outset, he's built up enough goodwill with everyone that when his Ripper stint is done, whatever he has done will 'balance out' the good and people won't care either way. Or it'll just be the Damon situation where it's 'in the past, forget it'.

I think the show will show some forgiveness towards Stefan though to keep some tension with Elena moving forward with Damon so she'll forgive Stefan here and there for what he's done, regardless of if it's worse than what Damon has done in the past.

[Doppelgänger]

Right, and just like there are degrees of murder, first degree being that it was thought out and planned being the worst of all, what Stefan did, planning this stuff out was way worse than what Damon did with his impulsiveness that was born out of his pain and/or trying to keep someone alive. So I agree with you there. But most likely the show will sweep that all under the rug for the sake of the 'hero' image staying intact which frankly has become so tarnished with me that it's a joke.

I guess I'd just like to see some equilizing after all the anger that has been wrought upon Damon's head for the things he did, even from Stefan and Damon asked for forgiveness in so many words as well and he showed he wanted forgiveness and was willing to try to do better. I'd like to see Stefan have to make the same kind of sacrifices and suffer the same kind of shunning from the characters on the show even if it's never seen as any worse just that it was bad enough to warrant it.

[Sweetluv4DE]

I'd be one BIG FAT hypocrite if I sat here and said that Stefan should not be forgiven although Damon was forgiven and I agreed with Elena for forgiving Damon.

There is no degrees of hurting someone. Hurt is hurt. Pain is pain.

People compare to justify the wrongful actions of their favorite character instead of owning what they did and understanding who they are.

This Damon vs Stefan thing is ridiculous. They are both vampires and they BOTH hurt Elena.

The only argument you could say is motive and reasoning for doing what they did. I think that is comparable. But not the pain inflicted on Elena. Like I said Elena's pain is pain regardless.

[Doppelgänger]

I'm saying, once again, that he shouldn't get off scot free with the excuse that Damon did it before him. That's really the point in all this for me. To say Damon did it and got forgiven so then he should be able to do it and nobody says a peep about it is just wrong. Damon suffered some serious consequences for what he did. So should Stefan. Damon lost alot of time with Elena, time he could have had to build a relationship with her. So should Stefan. I'm asking for fariness and equality and people to be able to see that they aren't so different after all.

[thebabe20]

I'm going to try and keep this brief.

Do I think Stefan should be forgiven for his actions against Elena?

-Yes. When he earns it. And so far he hasn't, that half assed apology (if you can even call it that since he didn't actually say the words I'm sorry or I apologize) IMO was not enough. He needs to earn back her trust and her friendship (or whatever it is they have) before he can be forgiven, and before they can move on. I don't want to see Elena brushing his actions under the rug, and trying to make nice with him. She doesn't owe him that. He's the one who needs to put in the most effort to try and fix what he broke. If this happens any other way, then I think the direction of this relationship will be very telling. It won't be good.

The things Damon did were just as bad, and I think for the most part he suffered a lot of consequences as he should have. I think what he did to Jeremy was among the worst, and it cost him his friendship with Elena for most of last season. When he forced his blood on her, she withheld her forgiveness until she found out he was about to die. When it comes to Elena, Damon gets away with very little, I sometimes feels she holds him to higher standards than she does Stefan. While she's willing to turn a blind eye to some of Stefan's indiscretions or just blatantly deny them, she's usually all over Damon about any little thing. I don't mind that, because it just shows how real their relationship is and how much she cares. And he has no problem calling her on her crap either so it's all good. It's not that I think she doesn't care about Stefan, but part of their relationship is based on these images they have of each other, which usually isn't a true representation of who they are. So they reject the negative things that don't fit with that image. Hence why Elena couldn't fathom her Stefan doing any of the things he's done. Or how Stefan can't fathom his Elena loving Damon or still loving him (Stefan) after all he's done since going with Klaus. In his mind Elena's moral superiority above him and Damon define her, kind of putting her on a pedestal. Which at least IMO is not true. I don't think Elena is this perfect moral person, hell compared to some normal humans Elena's morals are quite shady (She's in love with vampires for god sakes!). When it comes to protecting her loved ones I think there's little she won't do, and she has a serious manipulative streak at times, the girl knows how to get people to do what she wants.

For whoever says Damon got away with killing Mason? Whhhaaat? I recall Damon getting tortured TWICE because of what he did to Mason. First by Jules (she wanted the moonstone) and she wanted payback for what he did to Mason. AND By MASON himself when he came back as a ghost. Now obviously these aren't as bad as what Damon did (because he killed him) but he didn't get off Scott free either.

But I think it's a little unrealistic to expect Damon to suffer consequences for ALL the bad he's done on the show,considering he was sort of the villain and villains kill people and screw up. That's like wanting to see Stefan pay for every single person he's written down on his murder wall. They're not those people anymore. But now that Damon has grown so much that I do want him to be held accountable for things. The first time he killed Alaric was really a misunderstanding and to be fair Alaric was kinda in the wrong (he didn't deserve to die) but he made the assumption that Damon did all these horrible things to his wife and killed her, without accepting the truth. Attacked Damon, and Damon defended himself. The second time there was no excuse for what Damon did. He shouldn't have snapped Alaric's neck, even if he knew he'd come back to life. Their friendship suffered a little because of it, and I'm still not convinced that they've gotten everything smoothed out yet. so there are once again consequences.

I think the one thing Damon didn't suffer consequences for was.
Killing Lexi, and turning Vicky and some other insignificant character/people. I didn't care that he killed Lexi TBH I hated the , but it was still wrong because obviously that was Stefan's BFF, I guess they're even now that Stefan killed Andie. But I found it a little weird that Matt didn't think about retaliating against the Salvatores (because Technically Stefan killed her) when he found out about his sister. That will remain one of the biggest mysteries to me.

Well I said I would try to make it brief. I didn't make any promises.

[Slash]

Feb 1, 2012 22:14:00 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

I'm going to try and keep this brief.

Do I think Stefan should be forgiven for his actions against Elena?

-Yes. When he earns it. And so far he hasn't, that half assed apology (if you can even call it that since he didn't actually say the words I'm sorry or I apologize) IMO was not enough. He needs to earn back her trust and her friendship (or whatever it is they have) before he can be forgiven, and before they can move on. I don't want to see Elena brushing his actions under the rug, and trying to make nice with him. She doesn't owe him that. He's the one who needs to put in the most effort to try and fix what he broke. If this happens any other way, then I think the direction of this relationship will be very telling. It won't be good.

The things Damon did were just as bad, and I think for the most part he suffered a lot of consequences as he should have. I think what he did to Jeremy was among the worst, and it cost him his friendship with Elena for most of last season. When he forced his blood on her, she withheld her forgiveness until she found out he was about to die. When it comes to Elena, Damon gets away with very little, I sometimes feels she holds him to higher standards than she does Stefan. While she's willing to turn a blind eye to some of Stefan's indiscretions or just blatantly deny them, she's usually all over Damon about any little thing. I don't mind that, because it just shows how real their relationship is and how much she cares. And he has no problem calling her on her crap either so it's all good. It's not that I think she doesn't care about Stefan, but part of their relationship is based on these images they have of each other, which usually isn't a true representation of who they are. So they reject the negative things that don't fit with that image. Hence why Elena couldn't fathom her Stefan doing any of the things he's done. Or how Stefan can't fathom his Elena loving Damon or still loving him (Stefan) after all he's done since going with Klaus. In his mind Elena's moral superiority above him and Damon define her, kind of putting her on a pedestal. Which at least IMO is not true. I don't think Elena is this perfect moral person, hell compared to some normal humans Elena's morals are quite shady (She's in love with vampires for god sakes!). When it comes to protecting her loved ones I think there's little she won't do, and she has a serious manipulative streak at times, the girl knows how to get people to do what she wants.

For whoever says Damon got away with killing Mason? Whhhaaat? I recall Damon getting tortured TWICE because of what he did to Mason. First by Jules (she wanted the moonstone) and she wanted payback for what he did to Mason. AND By MASON himself when he came back as a ghost. Now obviously these aren't as bad as what Damon did (because he killed him) but he didn't get off Scott free either.

But I think it's a little unrealistic to expect Damon to suffer consequences for ALL the bad he's done on the show,considering he was sort of the villain and villains kill people and screw up. But now that he's grown past that I do want him to be held accountable for things. The first time he killed Alaric was really a misunderstanding and to be fair Alaric was kinda in the wrong (he didn't deserve to die) but he made the assumption that Damon did all these horrible things to his wife and killed her, without accepting the truth. Attacked Damon, and Damon defended himself. The second time there was no excuse for what Damon did. He shouldn't have snapped Alaric's neck, even if he knew he'd come back to life. Their friendship suffered a little because of it, and I'm still not convinced that they've gotten everything smoothed out yet. so there are once again consequences.

I think the one thing Damon didn't suffer consequences for was.
Killing Lexi, and turning Vicky and some other insignificant character/people. I didn't care that he killed Lexi TBH I hated the , but it was still wrong because obviously that was Stefan's BFF, I guess they're even now that Stefan killed Andie. But I found it a little weird that Matt didn't think about retaliating against the Salvatores (because Technically Stefan killed her) when he found out about his sister. That will remain one of the biggest mysteries to me.

Well I said I would try to make it brief. I didn't make any promises.

Decent post. I honestly didn't look at Damon & Elena's relationship in the same way you did but it's something for me to keep in mind now. Elena holding Damon to a higher standard has probably done a whole lot of good for his character and getting him to where he is now. As for Stefan placing Elena on a pedestal, he really should stop that (the Sacrifice keeps coming to mind and you brought up that she's manipulative at times which a few of us have mentioned and which I think she's guilty of when it came to Damon in the past by using his obsession with her to her advantage/getting him to bend to do things her way but he caught on). Him telling her that she's better than Damon, better than the both of them made me want to sucker punch him.

And I assume you're pointing to my post about bringing up some of Damon's past actions. It's mainly in relation to the 'Gang', not the outsiders (such as Jules).

- Damon got tortured for Mason's death by Jules and Mason himself but what has Tyler done for it? It's just kind of touched on when Jules is trying to turn him to her pack but other than that, now is his time for vengeance. He's a Hybrid. A bite could do Damon in or he could go in full on changed but he doesn't. It's not a matter anymore for him but I blame the Writers. Mason didn't even get to visit/talk with Tyler during the Ghost episode. Damon's killing of Mason probably did more trouble for the gang than Damon himself: Caroline was kidnapped, the killing of Mason brought the Wolf pack to town, made Elena a target cause they heard about the Curse & Moonstone, straining/destroying Caroline & Tyler's relationship for the time being, etc.. I'm sure Damon would have suffered the same fate though had Elijah not shown up when he did and if Mason didn't have a purpose to help out Tyler.

- Vicki's change/death was once again one of those things that passed on over to Caroline and her relationship. When Matt did take action, he shot Maddox to save Damon and then that was that after Damon knocked him out.

- Andie does not = Lexi's loss between Damon & Stefan. Lexi was Stefan's bridge between personas and getting back to his 'sane' state of mind (good Stefan). She was the one who first brought him over to that and has done so a few times after that. Her importance in Stefan's life was significant. Andie was for the time, a 'distraction', a source of info and also to keep Damon from feeling 'guilty'.

I think a lot of Damon's 'consequence' at those points in time reflected more on his relationship with Elena and her grilling him for them rather than the significant family members tied to those killed by Damon =\

[Sweetluv4DE]

Feb 1, 2012 20:55:02 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

I'm saying, once again, that he shouldn't get off scot free with the excuse that Damon did it before him. That's really the point in all this for me. To say Damon did it and got forgiven so then he should be able to do it and nobody says a peep about it is just wrong. Damon suffered some serious consequences for what he did. So should Stefan. Damon lost alot of time with Elena, time he could have had to build a relationship with her. So should Stefan. I'm asking for fariness and equality and people to be able to see that they aren't so different after all.

Oh I agree 100%... I thought we were just talking on the surface but I will go deeper.

Stefan SHOULD be forgiven ONLY when he redeems himself and asks for forgiveness and is on the path to becoming a better person. When his mind isn't clouded with revenge and death.

Only then do i feel Elena can forgive him. He needs to make up for allot of the stuff he did and said to her whether it was for her own good or not.

Damon did! Damon graveled, risked his life, did the whole scooby thing to protect her and even tried to kill Kat all for Elena. All to get Elena to trust him just a little again. To gain back what was so precious to him and that was her respect.

I cant for the life of me think Elena should or would just let Stefan graze by without any efforts to redeem himself. If the writers just allow her to forget everything quickly then they are not doing their jobs. Everything with SE was quick. Their meeting-crush-hookup-kiss-sex etc etc. If they do this quick again it will forever ruin SE for me completely. It will make it ok for girl's boyfriends to do what Stefan did to Elena ok. They gotta make him a good guy again. Anything less would be cheapening DE to me.

And I say that because DE have had to struggle so much. Why cant SE struggle a bit and for good reason? And I'm not talking about struggling because of Klaus this season and what he did to Stefan. I'm talking about struggling with trust, respect, sincerity and forgiveness.

Only then would I even remotely say YES STEFAN SHOULD BE FORGIVEN. If he does exactly what Damon has done and on the same level then Hell yes. He deserves forgiveness. If they throw at me some weak crap I'm gonna say I don't buy it and it did not earn it.

[Sweetluv4DE]

Feb 1, 2012 22:37:42 GMT -5 Slash said:

Feb 1, 2012 22:14:00 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

I'm going to try and keep this brief.

Do I think Stefan should be forgiven for his actions against Elena?

-Yes. When he earns it. And so far he hasn't, that half assed apology (if you can even call it that since he didn't actually say the words I'm sorry or I apologize) IMO was not enough. He needs to earn back her trust and her friendship (or whatever it is they have) before he can be forgiven, and before they can move on. I don't want to see Elena brushing his actions under the rug, and trying to make nice with him. She doesn't owe him that. He's the one who needs to put in the most effort to try and fix what he broke. If this happens any other way, then I think the direction of this relationship will be very telling. It won't be good.

The things Damon did were just as bad, and I think for the most part he suffered a lot of consequences as he should have. I think what he did to Jeremy was among the worst, and it cost him his friendship with Elena for most of last season. When he forced his blood on her, she withheld her forgiveness until she found out he was about to die. When it comes to Elena, Damon gets away with very little, I sometimes feels she holds him to higher standards than she does Stefan. While she's willing to turn a blind eye to some of Stefan's indiscretions or just blatantly deny them, she's usually all over Damon about any little thing. I don't mind that, because it just shows how real their relationship is and how much she cares. And he has no problem calling her on her crap either so it's all good. It's not that I think she doesn't care about Stefan, but part of their relationship is based on these images they have of each other, which usually isn't a true representation of who they are. So they reject the negative things that don't fit with that image. Hence why Elena couldn't fathom her Stefan doing any of the things he's done. Or how Stefan can't fathom his Elena loving Damon or still loving him (Stefan) after all he's done since going with Klaus. In his mind Elena's moral superiority above him and Damon define her, kind of putting her on a pedestal. Which at least IMO is not true. I don't think Elena is this perfect moral person, hell compared to some normal humans Elena's morals are quite shady (She's in love with vampires for god sakes!). When it comes to protecting her loved ones I think there's little she won't do, and she has a serious manipulative streak at times, the girl knows how to get people to do what she wants.

For whoever says Damon got away with killing Mason? Whhhaaat? I recall Damon getting tortured TWICE because of what he did to Mason. First by Jules (she wanted the moonstone) and she wanted payback for what he did to Mason. AND By MASON himself when he came back as a ghost. Now obviously these aren't as bad as what Damon did (because he killed him) but he didn't get off Scott free either.

But I think it's a little unrealistic to expect Damon to suffer consequences for ALL the bad he's done on the show,considering he was sort of the villain and villains kill people and screw up. But now that he's grown past that I do want him to be held accountable for things. The first time he killed Alaric was really a misunderstanding and to be fair Alaric was kinda in the wrong (he didn't deserve to die) but he made the assumption that Damon did all these horrible things to his wife and killed her, without accepting the truth. Attacked Damon, and Damon defended himself. The second time there was no excuse for what Damon did. He shouldn't have snapped Alaric's neck, even if he knew he'd come back to life. Their friendship suffered a little because of it, and I'm still not convinced that they've gotten everything smoothed out yet. so there are once again consequences.

I think the one thing Damon didn't suffer consequences for was.
Killing Lexi, and turning Vicky and some other insignificant character/people. I didn't care that he killed Lexi TBH I hated the , but it was still wrong because obviously that was Stefan's BFF, I guess they're even now that Stefan killed Andie. But I found it a little weird that Matt didn't think about retaliating against the Salvatores (because Technically Stefan killed her) when he found out about his sister. That will remain one of the biggest mysteries to me.

Well I said I would try to make it brief. I didn't make any promises.

Decent post. I honestly didn't look at Damon & Elena's relationship in the same way you did but it's something for me to keep in mind now. Elena holding Damon to a higher standard has probably done a whole lot of good for his character and getting him to where he is now. As for Stefan placing Elena on a pedestal, he really should stop that (the Sacrifice keeps coming to mind and you brought up that she's manipulative at times which a few of us have mentioned and which I think she's guilty of when it came to Damon in the past by using his obsession with her to her advantage/getting him to bend to do things her way but he caught on). Him telling her that she's better than Damon, better than the both of them made me want to sucker punch him.

And I assume you're pointing to my post about bringing up some of Damon's past actions. It's mainly in relation to the 'Gang', not the outsiders (such as Jules).

- Damon got tortured for Mason's death by Jules and Mason himself but what has Tyler done for it? It's just kind of touched on when Jules is trying to turn him to her pack but other than that, now is his time for vengeance. He's a Hybrid. A bite could do Damon in or he could go in full on changed but he doesn't. It's not a matter anymore for him but I blame the Writers. Mason didn't even get to visit/talk with Tyler during the Ghost episode. Damon's killing of Mason probably did more trouble for the gang than Damon himself: Caroline was kidnapped, the killing of Mason brought the Wolf pack to town, made Elena a target cause they heard about the Curse & Moonstone, straining/destroying Caroline & Tyler's relationship for the time being, etc.. I'm sure Damon would have suffered the same fate though had Elijah not shown up when he did and if Mason didn't have a purpose to help out Tyler.

- Vicki's change/death was once again one of those things that passed on over to Caroline and her relationship. When Matt did take action, he shot Maddox to save Damon and then that was that after Damon knocked him out.

- Andie does not = Lexi's loss between Damon & Stefan. Lexi was Stefan's bridge between personas and getting back to his 'sane' state of mind (good Stefan). She was the one who first brought him over to that and has done so a few times after that. Her importance in Stefan's life was significant. Andie was for the time, a 'distraction', a source of info and also to keep Damon from feeling 'guilty'.

I think a lot of Damon's 'consequence' at those points in time reflected more on his relationship with Elena and her grilling him for them rather than the significant family members tied to those killed by Damon =\

I terms of Mason. Someone had to do it. He was all over Damon and Stefan threatening them both and he was working with Kat who ultimately was gonna give Elena to Klaus. Someone had to give Mason the "hand in heart" otherwise Kat's plan would have worked. If Mason had kept his you know what in his pants and used his brain in the situation he would have walked away from Kat and went to the scooby gang. But he played a game of "who has the bigger balls" with the guy who has the BIGGEST balls in Mystic.

If Tyler cant understand why they killed Mason that's on him. Mason was a threat to them and to Elena. Knowingly. I wish mason could have come to them and joined forces but he chose a different path. Now Tyler already bit Damon. Damon saved Tyler and Caroline so to me he is redeemed for Mason.

Lexi I thought was wrong. He hated Stefan at that point. Stefan was being Stefan and he was being Damon. Damon knew it would hurt Stefan and I felt he regretted it and still does. He needed an out with the cops and Lexi was an easy out and a way to get in the good graces of the sheriff. Damon almost paid for it with his life in Atlanta had Elena not saved him. but Elena owed him that since he saved her from the car.

I agree that Andie and Lexi are not equal as far as significance to the brothers but none the less they were supporting cast members brought in to make the brothers lives easier and both had their importance. Life is Life. Again you have to look at motives there.

Damon changed Vicki. Yes he was an ass to do it but Vicki was a miserable sap who bugged the ish out of me. Damon ultimately was the reason she died because had she not changed she wouldn't be dead but at the same time Vicki was brought in and they tried to help her. So in reality Vicki is at fault for her death at the end of the day.

And that is all.

I guess everything I wrote is really my own perspective and I'm not trying to argue with you just kinda showing you how I saw things.

[thebabe20]

Feb 1, 2012 22:37:42 GMT -5 Slash said:

And I assume you're pointing to my post about bringing up some of Damon's past actions. It's mainly in relation to the 'Gang', not the outsiders (such as Jules).

- Damon got tortured for Mason's death by Jules and Mason himself but what has Tyler done for it? It's just kind of touched on when Jules is trying to turn him to her pack but other than that, now is his time for vengeance. He's a Hybrid. A bite could do Damon in or he could go in full on changed but he doesn't. It's not a matter anymore for him but I blame the Writers. Mason didn't even get to visit/talk with Tyler during the Ghost episode. Damon's killing of Mason probably did more trouble for the gang than Damon himself: Caroline was kidnapped, the killing of Mason brought the Wolf pack to town, made Elena a target cause they heard about the Curse & Moonstone, straining/destroying Caroline & Tyler's relationship for the time being, etc.. I'm sure Damon would have suffered the same fate though had Elijah not shown up when he did and if Mason didn't have a purpose to help out Tyler.

The show's not really logical with a lot of things. Like for instance Matt partying it up at the Salvatore's who were both responsible for his sister's demise. And I agree that Tyler maybe should have been pissed or sought revenge on Damon for what he did to Mason, but it's kinda like what they did with Matt.

But for me I think consequences are consequences no matter where they come from. Maybe Tyler didn't retaliate, but Jules sure did, and so did Mason. And like you pointed out, Damon killing Mason had a lot of negative consequences, which made it harder on him, because he had to deal with Jules and all the extra stuff that came a long with it. To be fair Stefan was ALL for killing Mason too, he just didn't get his hands dirty and didn't actually DO any of the work, so should he have suffered some consequences?

Feb 1, 2012 22:37:42 GMT -5 Slash said:

- Vicki's change/death was once again one of those things that passed on over to Caroline and her relationship. When Matt did take action, he shot Maddox to save Damon and then that was that after Damon knocked him out.

- Andie does not = Lexi's loss between Damon & Stefan. Lexi was Stefan's bridge between personas and getting back to his 'sane' state of mind (good Stefan). She was the one who first brought him over to that and has done so a few times after that. Her importance in Stefan's life was significant. Andie was for the time, a 'distraction', a source of info and also to keep Damon from feeling 'guilty'.

I think a lot of Damon's 'consequence' at those points in time reflected more on his relationship with Elena and her grilling him for them rather than the significant family members tied to those killed by Damon =\

I think Andie actually came to mean something more to Damon. Obviously not his true love or best friend or anything like that, but he did care for her. Or he wouldn't have been so torn up about what Stefan did to her, he wouldn't have tried to save her/protect her. Whether that's equal to Stefan and Lexie's BFFness can be debated, but I think there's a reason Stefan CHOSE Andie to send his message to Damon, and not some random girl. Everyone thought Stefan did it for the greater good, but Damon killing Lexi as wrong and insensitive as it was to Stefan, was for a greater good too. It was not just some random act of cruelty it was a plan to get the council off their backs, and she happened to be the only other vampire he knew of in town and he framed her to get rid of their vampire suspicions." Not Damon's best moment, but I don't think it was planned specifically to hurt Stefan, but he didn't actually consider him either.

[Doppelgänger]

Remember that Stefan planned to kill Damon for killing Lexie and because Elena told him not to, he just beat the crap out of him and staked him. Again, there were still consequences for Damon besides a loss of closeness to his brother for a time.

So really there seems to have always pretty much been some consequences for Damon one way or the other so it will be interesting to see if Stefan gets the same treatment becasue it seems to me that in the past St Stefan has been the one to actually get away with stuff. How is he supposed to show any growth as a character if that is the case this time as well?

[Slash]

With Mason, although he was working with Katherine, you have to remember it was Damon who initiated any physical conflict with the guy. Mason wanted no problem with the Brothers but Damon was the one who stabbed him with the silver knife cause of a possible involvement with Katherine and just because he was a Werewolf and he was 'playing it safe'. Stefan even tried to be the middle man to bring the conflict down but got pulled in himself. So whether or not someone had to do it, it was 'peaceful' for what it was until Damon started being Damon. The guy needs someone to keep him in check 24/7 and I hope if you visit MF, you have a file detailing your life or he's going to make an attempt at you like he did Mason & Jules as soon as they showed up.

I also think Mason may have come around to what Katherine was doing but it may have been one of those 'thinking with the other head' situations for him. Jules said they can smell a lie (once again, not a lot of info to go off of with Wolves) so Mason probably could have sniffed as much with what Katherine was telling him unless she was being very careful in what she said (another series I'm reading with Werewolves does this same thing where Wolves can sniff out a lie so you have to be very specific/careful in how you phrase something). But that ability seems to now be in Bekah's back pocket.

And Tyler may have bit Damon before but the circumstances weren't for that, although by proxy, they kind of were. Damon killed Mason, Katherine triggered Tyler's Curse for the lack of Mason (and turned Caroline as well), Klaus takes Caroline & Tyler, Damon ends up saving them on a full moon leading to his bite in saving Caroline. Damon's actions seem to have more of a ripple effect with everything and those around him.

I do think Damon was wrong for Lexi and is one of those things I'll never forgive him for. If he needed someone to use to get in good with the Council, why not turn some random sap off the streets, have them kill a person or two and then Damon swoops in to kill them? Why Lexi? Just cause it'd hurt Stefan at the same time and because she didn't like him? And these DAMN WRITERS. Why were Damon & Lexi at odds? What did Damon do? When we last saw them together in the flashback, Damon was on his way out begging her to help his Brother and she was warning him about his hate. What happened the next time they met that made the 2 hate each other? I WANT TO KNOW! And yes, Andie developed into more than a 'distraction' for Damon, like Rose did. A sign that Damon could love more than just Elena but both characters were killed off to 'progress' him and to bring Elena in somehow or back to his focus. Meh to that BS. I still think that both Lexi and Andie's deaths were kind of for naught. Damon could have turned someone else to use and Stefan undid what he did in killing Andie by making that damn phone call right after.

As far as Vicki goes...I'd rather she ran off and come back later in control or even malicious. It was the norm for her so to avoid the whole Vicki ripple that happened afterwards, I think it would have been nice to see her come back later on and to have something for Matt to do. She was all he had left but Caroline took over the role of the 'other' Vampire in the gang. Vicki was a wreck in her human life though. Maybe becoming a Vampire *COULD* have made her a better person like it did Caroline but maybe with more work involved. And it'd probably do nothing for Jeremy & Bonnie either. Bonnie already had to deal with Anna coming back but to have Vicki walk right back in after the Anna mess...WOOO!

[Doppelgänger]

Yeah but Jules and Mason were werewolves. There's an inherent risk of any werewolf being killed by a vampire and visa versa. They are automatic enemies and not trustworthy as far as a vampire would look at it. Then take a look at Jules and where she stood and what she did. She was gleeful that she'd bitten Rose and that she was going to die. Obviously not trusting her was a good instinct. One bite is all it takes. If I were a vampire I'd want to kill any werewolf I came across as well because of that.

But hmmm...we are talking about the comparison of Damon's crimes vs Stefan's and not werewolves vs vampires in this thread.

[Slash]

Feb 2, 2012 3:55:54 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Yeah but Jules and Mason were werewolves. There's an inherent risk of any werewolf being killed by a vampire and visa versa. They are automatic enemies and not trustworthy as far as a vampire would look at it. Then take a look at Jules and where she stood and what she did. She was gleeful that she'd bitten Rose and that she was going to die. Obviously not trusting her was a good instinct. One bite is all it takes. If I were a vampire I'd want to kill any werewolf I came across as well because of that.

But hmmm...we are talking about the comparison of Damon's crimes vs Stefan's and not werewolves vs vampires in this thread.

I don't believe in the 'automatic' enemies ideal. The whole idea was born out of one family (mainly Mikael) waging a war for a lost son, who's death was linked by a son he didn't like much to begin with and is a by-product of his wife's affair with a Wolf. He slaughtered a family of Wolves and it just got uglier throughout the ages with Vampires damn near wiping out the Wolves to the point where some Vampires don't even know they exist now (and they're hard to find). It's a taught ideal like we've seen with Jules and Brady, no different from the way the Council/Founders were raised over the ages to present day on Vampires. Caroline & Tyler weren't raised as such and although Liz grew up in that manner, she seems have been able to break those teachings along with Carol who threw them out the window when her son was involved.

Damon made the move against Jules to aggravate her, on a full moon no less. Their kind is manageable all but one day in the month and Damon picked that one day to do what he did. Not to forget that Damon and Stefan did kill a friend of hers which brought her to town anyways but Damon just made the matter worse by trying to use Wolfsbane on her with Alaric in their cheap attempt to test her.

Back to the Damon & Stefan thing, can we count Katherine out of this or no? Damon's actions earlier on were all for her supposed freedom but she's watching from the shadows the entire time (and then trying to stop her with whatever she was doing later on after he found out how she felt about him) and has even egging him on in such cases after that (telling him it was always Stefan just before he hears the same from Elena; both women 'rejecting' him that night for his Brother and you have to wonder if Katherine hadn't pulled that string, if Jeremy wouldn't have died that night) and we're to believe that Katherine is also tugging some strings with Stefan's plan to kill Klaus, or at the very least, prompting the plan. Damon has gotten that 'poison' out of his system but could you say if Stefan had gone his own way after the failed attempt at Klaus, he wouldn't be pulling the crap he's doing and keeping everyone in the line of fire cause Katherine suggested something to him and knowing that he was the 'worse' Brother in a 'bad' state of mind?

[willlddcat]

If Damon gets a free pass for being an emotional impulsive kind of guy then Stefan should get one too. Stefan has this awful mean ripper side to him that took him years to leave behind. He never wanted to come back to this but Klaus forced it on him. Lexi told them what they had to do and how long and hard it would take. Damon is the one who freed him too soon. So if anyone is to blame it would be Klaus and Damon for not letting him get the help he needed. Should Elena forgive Stefan? Not right now. Maybe once he recovers and offers a heartfelt apology, but until then, no. I also don't think he deserves to have Elena back.

Damon continues to hurt people even if they do have rings. Its still awful to watch someone die. Alaric didn't forgive him right away. Maybe Jeremy did because he desperately wanted to be involved with what was going on. Just when you think knowing and loving Elena has changed him he does something stupid. Damon is especially cruel for going after the girl his own brother loves. Can everyone on this board seriously sit here and say that if they were dating possibly the love of their life that they would be ok with their sibling going after them knowing full well that you love them? You can't lie and say that that wouldn't hurt like hell. Stefan is sick right now and knowing that something is going on between the two is probably making it worse. And his own brother killed his best friend. Lexi is DEAD. Never coming back.


As of right now I feel Damon is worse. That could change in the future. I also want to point out that I am not bias to anyone. I could care less about the Stefan, Elena, Damon triangle. I know it seems like I am super pro Stefan but I am not. I still think he is horrible for what he is doing and should suffer the consequences.