DE Shipper Manifesto

[Doppelgänger]

I'd love to hear other Delena shippers opinions on this piece about this person's conclusion about what the DE relationship is all about. It's quite controversial yet thought provoking. I have my own opinion on it which I'll share after I hear from some of you. It's hiatus. We're bored so why not discuss abstract ideas and toss them around?

This is for DE shippers only, not other shippers. It's not a thread to debate in.

Here's the post: upupa-epops.livejournal.com/148743.html

[Deleted]

Well this definitely focuses on the darker aspects of the DE relationship. Don't know about all the Damon is a ******, murderer stuff. Didn't think Delenas in our own fandom would label him like that but whatever

I liked the parts where she stated how Damon and Elena each thought of what love really is and it's all these components and yet still not a definite answer. Which is good since love is abstract and shouldn't be just a simple answer.

Some of the other stuff I'm a bit on the fence about. I don't think the DE relationship just consists of emotional/physical/abuse and whatnot. There's been some light hearted moments between them too. We've seen Damon returning her necklace, throwing her a birthday party despite the Stefan drama, cooking chili with her and cracking jokes.

He might not always be there before the 'big event' happens but some things can't be helped. He may only be there to 'pick up the pieces' but it's not done that way on purpose. There are a lot of other stuff that gets in the way and prevent him from being there and it's not like anyone else is giving him any breaks.

For Klaus' sacrifice Elena and Stefan went hiking for her last human day while he was trying to stop the sacrifice in his own way by rescuing Tyler and Caroline. He couldn't have known that Stefan would just give Elena over willingly. The part where Stefan was compelled to kill Elena the reason Damon wasn't there was because Elena and Alaric both made it clear that they didn't want him around so he respected that and got out of there. Of course trouble brews what else is new. Elena doesn't make any of this 'rescuing' easy she's as stubborn as a mule. The thing is Damon is not even her boyfriend yet she sees more of him than Stefan in those emotional moments.

So yes while some aspects I agree with others I don't. It is interesting how DE fans can take scenes and interpret them in different ways. I myself have never really looked at DE in the 'dark' way but I can see where the other fans are coming from.

[Doppelgänger]

I personally disagree with alot of what s/he says. As for the ****** remarks, I liken what Damon did by removing their fear by compulsion to a married man not telling a woman he's married.

Therefore she is missing a piece of information which might have changed her mind on whether or not to sleep with him, but she still had her free will to choose and she chose to sleep with him. She just didn't have all the information she could have to make a different decision. So to me, Damon is not a ****** any more than that married man is, simply by witholding the information that he is married from a woman.

I was going to post this but then realized s/he didn't seem to want to hear opposing points of view so why bother, but I'll post it here:

I agree with some of what you said and disagree with some of it. I believe you are right in your conclusion that neither Damon nor Elena know what real love is, probably because they haven't experienced it yet. You bend my mind even a little more by making me question if *I* know what real love is. Actually, I have already questioned this myself and concluded that perhaps not. I know what I *think* it should be, but like Damon and Elena, I have not experienced it.

As for abusiveness, I do not believe this relationship is abusive. Forgetting that he is a vampire and therefore another species, not even human anymore and sustains his life by feeding on humans and is therefore not bound by our own sense of right and wrong in a human capacity, is he abusive? Abusiveness can be defined as a pattern of behavior with the intent to frighten, control and/or harm another human being. It isn't an accident. It isn't a simple mistake. It's a purposeful series of acts meant to frighten, control or harm another person. Read, "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft for a very knowledgable resource on the subject matter.

Does Damon exhibit these behaviors? Well, he did to some degree in the beginning, want to frighten Elena, so there is that to consider. As for the rest what I conclude is that Damon skirted the line of it, but never really crossed it by showing a definite pattern of behavior, especially given that he now acts to protect Elena. It was only the first few episodes where we really wondered if he meant to do her harm but he never did.

Is he a control freak? To some degree he likes to control the outcome of a situation. However his desire to control things comes from a desire to protect not to simply have power over someone else and there is the difference between an abuser and someone like Damon.

As for the various neck snapping incidents I conclude that Damon does not consider it killing someone if they are going to come back to life in some capacity. He didn't know Jeremy had the ring on, but he did know that he wanted to be a vampire and by his own words that night he was giving Jeremy what he wanted, to be a vampire, to be free of the emotional pain he was in if he wanted to be, while at the same time releasing his frustration or some of his frustration over losing the women that he loved.

The same goes for Isobel. She wanted to be a vampire. He gave her what she wanted. As for Alaric he knew he had the ring on. For Bonnie's Mom, he made sure she'd come back as a vampire. In every case, there was still going to be life, just not necessarily the life they had before. Is it clean cut? No, it really isn't and I can see both sides of the argument that what he did was 'kill' someone that was important to Elena. He did kill random people and not necessarily just for feeding purposes, but to release his pain, which he has recently stopped doing, but also goes back to the fact he is after all, a vampire.

If anything, Elena shows the more classic signs of an abuser when she hits Damon trying to cause him physical harm, not that she could, but Damon does not retaliate. She has also been much more emotionally abusive, but again, it goes to intent and I don't believe she intended to be hurtful by the things she said to Damon. So even with Elena I can't conclude that she is abusive.

Now, every abuser is going to tell you that they didn't mean to be hurtful, but seeing as this is a TV show they give us a glimpse into their minds and show us their intent and it can't be concluded that either of these characters were abusive in my opinion. However, they are obviously not normal well adjusted people either.

Their relationship is flawed because they are two flawed people with their own issues in their own right. If they ever do manage to cut through it all to the heart of it, which is that they are destined to be together and together they can help to make each other better and stronger individuals, then it will be a wonderful thing.

[Doppelgänger]

While the manifesto is thought provoking and raises interesting questions which I think are good to be raised and have certainly been raised by other ships, I think it is fundamentally flawed in my opinion, and it almost makes me question why they ship Delena as they claim they do if they truly believe that is what it is all about.

I'd like to see someone do a manifesto on Stelena, too because it seems to me that that relationship is so often overlooked except for the surface stuff. The really deep meaning of their behavior is simply never touched upon.

[Deleted]

I agree with your post Doppel Damon and Elena don't have an abusive relationship. Things aren't done to just be abusive it's done to protect one or the other and they're not perfect so mistakes will be made but that doesn't mean it's the initial intention.

Though while I was reading the post it came off to me almost like an anti DE post that I'd expect from some other shipper fandom and not someone who's a fan of DE. With the way they're wording it it's almost like why they do care for Delena at all if there's more negative than good points?

[Doppelgänger]

Yeah I know or that they've bought into the arguments of other shippers. Because when I look at it logically I don't see it. I have read that particular book about abuse as well, written by an expert on it, and I'm pretty aware of the signs. This is due to my own experience and the fact that I volunteer with abused women to try to help them get out of their situations. People shouldn't toss around words like **** and abuse if they don't really have a knowledge of just what it really is. That gets my hackles up I guess.

[Doppelgänger]

You're also right in that anyone can do something stupid or wrong or say something that is hurtful or do something that is hurtful but that doesn't make them abusive. It's the pattern of behavior you have to look at it and what they are trying to achieve with that pattern. Are they constantly putting someone down (ala Stefan...hmmm?) or are they controlling a person's behavior via threats or emotional or physical harm? Then you have an issue.

Don't even get me started on the Defan relationship.

[Deleted]

That person just seems to have Damon and Elena' characters analyzed down to a T and their post is so deep and whatnot yet they think Damon is a ******? It just makes no sense to me especially coming from a DE fan. I don't want to be snooty and say a real Damon fan wouldn't call him that but it's just really surprising to me

I really doubt that JP's intention was to write Damon as a ******, that would just be disrespect to the original character and LJ. I also doubt that the CW would allow something like that to even be shown since there's a limit to the cussing and nudity on the network.

And the murderer thing also needs to be dropped. He's a vampire not human so I don't see what's the big deal. We haven't seen him walking around with a knife and axe have we?

Like you said I hate it when words like ******, abusive, is just thrown around like nobody's business when it's farther from the truth. In their post they had said Elena is their 'girl' so why would they ship her with the so called, murderer/******/abuser?

I don't mind other perspectives from DE fans but not things that are totally out of left field. Most of the post just makes DE look bad and would make people wonder why people even ship them.

[Doppelgänger]

I don't have a LJ, but I gave my perspective on the **** part of it a few hours back anonymously and explained I didn't have an LJ and didn't really want one so that's why it was anonymous and I guess they can decide to post or not? So far s/he hasn't posted it. Like I said I don't think they are looking for other perspectives. I liked some of the other postings but this one missed the mark to me.

[Deleted]

Oh so I guess that was your post that got screened

Yeah I guess they haven't posted their 'analysis' of Damon being a ****** since it keeps sending me back to same comments at the bottom.

Gosh I guess I can't wait for their part 2

[Doppelgänger]

The screened one was another post regarding '****' and disagreeing with them. Mine just never appeared at all. It's kind of funny that they don't want to hear anybody else's opinion other than praise. What are they afraid of, learning something different? It sort of makes me dismiss the entire thing in my mind if they refuse to elaborate further how they came to these conclusions when they are questioned.

[Deleted]

They probably know that their post is controversial and probably didn't want to deal with a bunch of comments disputing everything written which that is what most would do, like how we did, since it's basically pointing out the bad aspects of DE. Especially when they wrote 'This is how they show their love. No flowers, no romantic gestures, no great speeches, no epic sacrifices. This.'

Of course someone is going to want to dispute that since they're stating their opinion as fact. Add to that them thinking Damon is a ******/murderer. Like you said earlier when watching DE abusive never came to the mind and that word shouldn't be thrown around just because. Coming from a DE fan that manifesto certainly doesn't sound too pro DE at all

[Doppelgänger]

Oh, and how about how he is always too late and never saves her?? WHAT? How about all the other times he was there and DID save her? I mean it's a TV show. You almost know if Damon is supposed to be busy/out of town, something bad is going to happen to Elena cause that's how they roll. When he's in town he always saves her.

So do you figure this person is a closet DE hater? Or perhaps their own life experience colors the way they look at things. Perspective often does that. I can see how someone would possibly believe some of it, but that's without actually putting it to a test. That's just using labels to explain people, ******, murderer, abuser and not only, people, but supernatural people. They don't even take into account that Damon is a vampire and eats humans to survive. That changes his perspective on the value of human life. Why wouldn't it? It's a huge factor.

I don't know, the other posts were decent enough, but where did all this come from? I don't see them this way at all. Since they won't have a conversation with a dissenter, I'm left to discuss it here and form my own opinions and I'm sure they're not what the author intended.

I should write my own manifesto of why I ship DE but I'm too lazy and nobody would probably read it. I did do my character analysis of Damon over at the other board, but now it's gone.

[Deleted]

Yeah when reading their post they're confused about what the real definition of love is in life but that doesn't mean they'll find the answer on a fictitious vampire drama show and use it as an example

All I know is that a pro DE wouldn't just rip apart their ship like that with more negatives and positives it's like why are they even shipping it if it's that depressing? Most of the post is over exaggerated because like you said there's times when Damon has been there and saved the day and at the end of it kept Elena alive. He's not even her boyfriend but his track record is better than Stefan's. He's supposed to be the one comforting Elena not Damon yet most of the times it turns out the opposite.

[Doppelgänger]

What I find really strange is how some Bamon fans trash talk Damon all the time and I'm left scratching my head like, ummm, don't you like him if you want him with Bonnie? It seems more common than not.