50 shades of grey

[Doppelgänger]

Also, a note from Ian. He mentioned the part like twice and now there's all these stories about how he's desperate for it.

ian somerhalder‏@iansomerhalder

OK ,this ChristianGrey thing has gotten out of control.Know this,Im not"desperate"to do anything except relax today.Be positive


**Oh, by the way, I do not see Ian when I read about Christian Grey in any way, shape or form. I don't really get how people do. I know he could 'act' the part just fine, but I don't really see it as him and I'm of the opinion that this part wouldn't be good for him, not for a guy who wants to build an animal sanctuary where he works with kids. Nope...not a good idea.

[Slash]

Getting spanked for rolling your eyes? What?

[Doppelgänger]

Jun 20, 2012 20:53:40 GMT -5 Slash said:

Getting spanked for rolling your eyes? What?

Yup...he spanked her for rolling her eyes at him.


**Spoilers ahead, just in case...**

Well I'm now in the middle of the second book and still on the fence. Things never got any worse in the physical sense than the spanking business thus far but the only reason it hasn't is because Ana didn't sign the 'contract.'

What he wanted in his contract that he presented Ana with was mind blowing and very much like he was buying a new toy. Personally if I were Ana after he showed her the contract and the 'red room of pain' I'd have been running for the hills. Why she didn't is baffling but most likey due to her innocence and inexperience.

Not even taking into consideration his dom/sub tendencies (needs as he put it), which she didn't sign up for when she didn't sign the 'contract,' some of his behavior is very VERY controlling and in a real world situation these are considered 'red flags' for abusive men (and women) extreme jealousy, stalkerish behavior, excessive need to control the other person. Christian Grey, in real life, could very well end up being quite abusive. He actually says at several points that he enjoys inflicting pain on his partners and not just for pleasure, for punishment too if she doesn't do what he wants her to do. Big BIG red flag for future abusiveness.

You see controlling/abusive men aren't ALL bad. They do have a good side, a vulnerable side, like Grey does. It's just that, the bad side is so bad. If they were all bad they would never get a woman to stick around at all and that's just the truth of it. They can also be very attractive, charismatic, successful and driven, like Christian Grey is. Another thing they do have in common is lack of empathy and Grey's lack of empathy is even discussed in the book.

Incidentally, sociopaths have a lack of empathy, too, and abusive men are on the continuum that ends in sociopathy. This was actually told to me by a counselor. Not that they are all sociopaths but that they all have some of the traits. It just depends on degree of severity to be a diagnosable disorder.

Where I am in the book, Grey is selling her car and buying her a new one that he owns, buying her a computer, ipad and blackberry so he can always reach her, trying to get her to quit her job and move in with him. These are all control tactics. This would cut her off from her independence. It's the sort of thing these types do. He creepily knows everything about her right down to her bank account number, knows where she is at all times due to tracking devices in the stuff he gave her, etc. Stalker much? Yes, very much! and very typical of the abusive type of man.

So in effect I don't see anything different about Christian Grey than any other real life abusive man thus far, only the author is romanticizing it and in a way normalizing it when this book is a best seller like it is and even though it's fiction I don't think it's a very healthy ideal and could keep or get some women into very bad relationships thinking, "Oh, he's just a Christian Grey."

That's the part that worries me because most likely the real life counterpart is an abusive control freak who won't even resemble Christian Grey once he has his hooks in and could turn out to be dangerous or even deadly.

So these books are, on the one hand, they are fiction and you have to give some latitude for that. On the other hand there's so much that is wrong with them and wrong with Mr. Grey that it's scary to think that women could be led astray by these books and into relationships that could be harmful to them. Mr. Grey's 'hotness' does not make up for his 50 shades of f***ed-up-ness, in my opinion.

Mainly it's concerning to me because they are now best sellers and being talked about and read alot. I read them out of curiosity.

I think this sort of acceptance can only spur on abusive men to be more abusive and expect their women to accept it. After all, it's a best seller, right? Other women are reading it and raving about it. (I have yet to see a woman who was abused give it a positive review!) So their women must have something wrong with them, not the abuser. The books are not completely harmless for this reason. There are women out there and alot of them that are living in situations where they are being abused and this fuels the fire.

We should be questioning why Mr. Grey's behavior is not being questioned more in the mainstream and instead the book is being touted as sexy. Something is really wrong with this picture, but something has been wrong for a long time in the acceptance of such behavior. At the very least we should be talking/debating it. There's a little of that, but not alot because Mr. Grey is not all out abusive, but that doesn't mean he doesn't show the signs of it in a big way.

[Doppelgänger]

Some others that agree with me. This first one, like me, has been in such a relationship herself:

Excerpt:

Although Christian is ultimately a three-dimensonal, sympathetic character, he's also described repetitively as mercurial. Ana can't keep up with his ever-changing moods that blow breathtakingly hot to bone-chillingly cold. At least through most of the first book, Fifty's mysterious nature and hair-trigger mood swings have Anastasia walking on eggshells, petrified that he's going to snap. And this is somehow supposed to be ... sexy as hell?

I'm sorry, but what a crap message to send women!


thestir.cafemom.com/love_sex/137397/50_shades_of_grey_is


Then there's Dr. Drew's debate and he is pretty outspoken about his dislike of the book but he has a panel discussion on it in this video clip:

www.hlntv.com/video/2012/03/07/fifty-shades-grey-fantasy-or-violence

And this one which is a little more on the fence, but again, a woman who has been there and knows what it's like:

Excerpt:

Most of my friends…and my family… don’t know this. I’ve been determined to protect them from knowing this. Of course I realize that some will now, but it’s been haunting me for so long and it is sad to say that this book is what made me realize that it is time for me to stop pushing it aside and ignoring it and acting like this never happened. It is time for me to deal with my past or it will always plague me.



I was in a relationship for four years with a guy who had some of the personality flaws and issues as the character Christian Grey. He loved to hurt me, to embarrass and shame me, to use me. Anything to make him feel better about himself. Only there were major differences between him and Christian Grey: What he did to me was far worse and he didn’t want to change. Instead he grew worse and worse as I stupidly let him get away with things more and more.


mytiarascrooked.com/2012/05/25/50-shades-of-domestic-violence/

This one also which has some good points:

Excerpts:

At a time when women are coming into their own power, have more economic control over their lives, sometimes earn more than their husbands, for the first time compose more than half the workforce, and have an opportunity to change the domination game by claiming their power, some in the media are using this book to ask questions like, "Are you sure you want control? Isn't it sexy to be out of control?"

and

It's not just the questions that are being raised that bug me; it's also the questions that are not being raised. Why aren't we asking what's wrong with men that need to control, own, dominate, assault women? No mention of the other side of this game. I just read that domestic violence is up during the recession. So economic pressures force men to beat up their wife or girlfriend? What's that all about?

www.huffingtonpost.ca/birute-regine/50-shades-of-grey_b_1465294.html

[Doppelgänger]

Now I just have to

From the second book:

So can I love this man with all his issues unconditionally? Because he deserves nothing less. He still needs to learn boundaries and little things like empathy, and to be less controlling. He says he no longer feels the compulsion to hurt me.

I'm gonna have to use an overused phrase from the books, Oh my!

Now let's see, he has no boundaries, no empathy, he's controlling and he's had a compulsion to hurt her. Yeah sure why not marry him? JEEZ!!!

I can't even begin to... I think he needs a thousand years of therapy first. Just saying... Little things like empathy...

[Slash]

Thanks for the insight Doppel It really does sound like a horrible real-life character/type (abusive) being romanticized as you put it. Yeah, you can say the same thing about Vampires (creatures that feed on the living) and such but they're fantasy altogether (aside from the nut jobs that actually try and copy them...). The whole 'contract' deal seems like an odd spin too. We get it, he's a billionaire and is successful but a contract for a sub?

Probably need to read the books myself but it's my understanding that in a working/'healthy' Dom-Sub equation, both members have guidelines/rules that they set with the other to where the fantasy/act works for both (where both are comfortable in whatever position they're in and feel in good hands with whoever is the Dom). The Dom does get control but not over every aspect of the Sub's life (unless you're really taking it to an extreme). 'Red flag' as you put it if you're going to walk into one of those relationships. The setup for Grey & Ana where Grey wants her in a contract and wants complete control of her (selling her car, wanting her to move in with him, getting her a new phone/computer/etc. that he can keep track of, knowing her bank account, etc.) sounds like an extreme case and like he's got training wheels on to going further possibly with his lifestyle should certain aspects present themselves (does he just let a Sub go that doesn't agree with his way of things or does he pull a Dahmer? Or since he's a billionaire, can he just pay off getting rid of the body with no questions asked?).

I liked what little I read of the characters in the first chapter and I know it's a fictional story but I figure going forward, I may be bothered by the same aspects that you were from the sounds of it. Still is on my 'To Read' list.

[Doppelgänger]

I never thought of the aspect of 'doing away' with her. That would be a spin. Nah, but all sense seems to go out the window with poor Ana and it gets more and more like a badly written fan fiction. Even the sex isn't all that hot after a couple of times and it becomes predictable with Grey saying, 'I'm gonna give it to you this way,' and then he does and it's over in two seconds flat. Ana must be made of leather or else she has built up calluses between her thighs from the number of times they do it in a day. I'm tempted to count the "Oh my" and "Oh boy" and 'down there's.' It gets irritating when it's in every other sentence and then it just gets comical. Didn't this writer even have some sort of Editor, proofreader, thesaurus, maybe?

[Doppelgänger]

Jun 22, 2012 19:35:57 GMT -5 Slash said:

Thanks for the insight Doppel It really does sound like a horrible real-life character/type (abusive) being romanticized as you put it. Yeah, you can say the same thing about Vampires (creatures that feed on the living) and such but they're fantasy altogether (aside from the nut jobs that actually try and copy them...). The whole 'contract' deal seems like an odd spin too. We get it, he's a billionaire and is successful but a contract for a sub?

Probably need to read the books myself but it's my understanding that in a working/'healthy' Dom-Sub equation, both members have guidelines/rules that they set with the other to where the fantasy/act works for both (where both are comfortable in whatever position they're in and feel in good hands with whoever is the Dom). The Dom does get control but not over every aspect of the Sub's life (unless you're really taking it to an extreme). 'Red flag' as you put it if you're going to walk into one of those relationships. The setup for Grey & Ana where Grey wants her in a contract and wants complete control of her (selling her car, wanting her to move in with him, getting her a new phone/computer/etc. that he can keep track of, knowing her bank account, etc.) sounds like an extreme case and like he's got training wheels on to going further possibly with his lifestyle should certain aspects present themselves (does he just let a Sub go that doesn't agree with his way of things or does he pull a Dahmer? Or since he's a billionaire, can he just pay off getting rid of the body with no questions asked?).

I liked what little I read of the characters in the first chapter and I know it's a fictional story but I figure going forward, I may be bothered by the same aspects that you were from the sounds of it. Still is on my 'To Read' list.

Yeah, that's why I have to remain on the fence about it. It's fiction like TVD is fiction and to be fair I can't completely condemn it because of that. I guess it's a little different because there's nothing supernatural about it, therefore a person like that could actually exist, unlike a vampire, but like a vampire we could analyze the hell out of what they do and call it bad, without considering it's fiction, so meh. It's sort of take it with a grain of salt time.

I think my main issue is with the overwhelming popularity of it. The people's reaction to it and how I find that a bit troubling considering how truly f***ed up that character is and how someone in real life that resembled him would probably be dangerous and the fact that alot of young women are being influenced by that.

If I suspend my belief, then it's just a love story after the first bit of weirdness is over with the 'contract' and all that. Nothing gets too demented, although the contract agreement surely was. To the book's benefit, Grey was under the care of a psychiatrist and working on overcoming his issues along the way, so I can give credit for that.

I finished the books, and things didn't ever get any worse so all in all, I can't say they were terrible. I can't really say they were what I'd call good either.

[pixiestyx]

These books are horrible. I read the first two and couldn't finish the third.

I liked Ana at first but thought she was dumb. There are things that Christian does that had alarm bells RINGING in my head and
while Ana recognises it...she's like 'oh that's just my 50'. WTF girl, you drunk dial him in the middle of the night and then he TRACKS YOUR CELL PHONE and shows up at the bar. That would seriously scare the s*** out of me if someone did that after like 2 meetings. And this is one many, many controlling things he does.

As for the sex, it just got ridiculous at some point.

[Doppelgänger]

He's such a sex God that she couldn't resist....that is what we're supposed to believe..I don't know but a guy just saying 'I'm going to f*** you hard' isn't foreplay to me unless he gives me 10 minutes to think about it...anyway we're supposed to suspend our imagination girl! I agree....he is scary alot...

[Slash]

He's just concerned. You drunk dial someone and you're still at the bar. He has a right to be concerned about your safety, trace the call, and show up to check on you. Right? That's what a gentleman does, right?

Someone can't be that naive to ignore the kinds of flags you people are pointing out.

Wait, that's foreplay? 6 words and they're not even subtle but just outright vulgar?

[pixiestyx]

But she DOES ignore them. Like every time she tries to assert herself she backs off because she's scared of what he will do.

And yep, that's pretty much their foreplay. Although it gets to a point where she basically looks at him and has an orgasam.

[Doppelgänger]

I know! She goes from virgin to nympho the second they have sex. Which is actually pretty amazing given that first time was *shudder* I felt sorry for the poor girl...ouch!

[delena4eva]

I thought these books got boring after awhile. I got so sick of hearing about her inner goddess. It was so repetitive and poorly written.

[phoenix]

I read book one in one weekend. Loved it. I started out picturing Ian Somerhalder as Christian but was also picturing Matt Bomer. I know he's gay but he seemed to fit the part of the deviant sex god LOL.

After reading the whole series, I have to admit I agree with delena4eva. I was pretty tired of the inner goddess references but I still loved the series.

Can't wait for the movie. I just hope they don't PG it to death. I'm not a triple X kind of person but I'm not a prude either and the sex is a big part of who Christian is at least in the beginning, so I'm hoping they can portray it in such a way that it doesn't become a porno flick but without loosing it all together. Does that make sense?