Why I Don't Hate Caroline

[Deleted]

Caroline had every right to react the way she did to Damon and Elena's relationship. Just as Caroline needs to be a friend to Elena well Elena needs to do the same to everyone-care about how they feel which was not really apparent this episode. I mean Caroline knew Damon and Elena had a sire bond and she knew Elena was unknowingly being manipulated by it. Then ELENA says insensitive things THAT ARE NOT TRUE like Damon has always been there for her. Like always? really? Was he there for her when he killed jeremy? Was he there for her when tried to kill bonnie? was he there for her when he wanted to kill her friend Caroline? Whatever stupid comment. Don't get me started. AND then she talks about Caroline getting into bed with with him. She was being compelled #1 and Caroline did not just break up with his brother like a day ago after having a VERY intense long-term relationship.

Also are some of you forgetting that Elena decisions are being manipulated right now? Yes it is Elena's choice but who can tell what is truly her choice right now. Yes her choices should be respected and her right to make her choices should be respected. I am sorry but I am annoyed that the wording to break this sire bond has to be so ridiculous. I know they will find a way around that and then we will see how much of an influence this sire bond has had on her choices and her feelings.

hate caroline all you want or say that it was too forced. Many would say the same to this whole end of the triangle. I mean how much of the story and characters are they going to change in order to make this thing work? (that's rhetorical)

[Doppelgänger]

Since this thread is becoming combative I'm moving it to debates. Have fun.

[Ruby2579]

You know theres an arguement going about when Elena says what she feels is real for Damon.

Right before Damon says you know what would make me happy if all this time ive been in love with u that i know what u feel is real. And she says its real.

Not saying its valid because some people could be looking into it too much but it was a good point to notice.

[Doppelgänger]

Honestly Teppy you're hitting on alot more subjects than Caroline here with what you're saying about Damon and that end of the triangle and all that. I wouldn't know where to begin, so let's try to separate out the issues and make a second subject about the sire bond or whatever aspect of the sire bond/DE relationship you are not happy about, and yes, I know, all of it, but try to narrow it down so the thread doesn't go all over the place. I'd love to see your points on why you think DE is contrived because to me it's been 3+ long years of watching it develop very carefully from a writer's standpoint. I could do without the sire bond thing thrown in but it did happen in the books and I don't think it amounts to much when it comes to her feelings that have been there. But that's me. I'd like to see why you think that it isn't real.

[Deleted]

Yeah I'll stick to the Caroline stuff as I don't want my post to come out super long!

Elena straight up asked Caroline why she jumped into bed with Damon. Caroline did not say, "Because I was compelled to sleep with him." Fans can insinuate what they want but unless Caroline comes out and says it herself then it's just just fanon and it's ludicrous to think that this isn't one of the first things she'd bring up in her concerns for Elena or bring up at all or think so lowly of JP that she would actually write something like that. That's all I will say on that matter as I will not argue such a baseless assumption.

If people want to call Elena out for what she said to Caroline then Caroline is also at fault. They BOTH were out of line. Elena only got snappy when Caroline did.

Some of the things Caroline is saying about Damon and Elena's relationship is over the top. 'Damon and Elena together make me want to barf!' Okay your two cents moving on. It's immature and silly.

When she stated her concerns about Damon taking advantage of Elena is when I was like finally! Elena needs to hear her concerns on why she is so against her and Damon. Not things like, 'Because the two of you together make me want to barf.' no actual legitimate reasons.

She needs to spend more time talking to Elena! Not going behind her back with Stefan and discussing in private how they can 'fix' her and getting her cured without Elena there herself to consent in the matter.

How is Elena supposed to care about how she feels when she's getting snarky and witty banter and not actual concerns. Obviously if Caroline gives her that 'barf' line then Elena will likely roll her eyes at her. It's not some game Elena is serious. I hated that the conversation at the slumber party was cut off early before they could discuss more seriously on that subject.

I said this already but I don't care if Caroline hates Delena. She wouldn't be the first character ever in TVD history to be against Delena. I don't care if she hates Damon, she's not the only one. She doesn't have to be BFF with him. I like Caroline's character but doesn't mean I have to agree with her anti Delena or Damon views. Just because I disagree with that doesn't mean I'm so anti Caroline I want her to die!

I really think her character can do so much better than being an unnecessary spokesman for the triangle. I like her in scenes where her character doesn't constantly revolve around the main three's love lives.

[Doppelgänger]

OK, now that it's moved to debates, on to the Caroline stuff. Caroline was compelled by Damon NOT to be afraid of him as a vampire. She already slept with him before she found that out and woke up to find out he'd bitten her and tried to sneak out of the room and THAT is when he compelled her to not be afraid/not tell anyone he was a vampire. I'm not going to deny that he was not very nice to her, but season one was 3 seasons ago and Damon has changed and moved on so the haters need to move on as well, including Caroline!

We've watched his painstaking progress so why must people keep going back to season one to make arguments against Damon? Stefan withholding information about Katherine being her exact duplicate AND being a vampire and having a relationship with her knowing she was unaware of it is the exact same thing sans compulsion to 'forget' she knows. Should we go back there to season one? I don't think it is helpful to today's discussions. The brothers have changed and we need to talk about the now.

Why does nothing Damon did to prove he was sorry/cared about Caroline matter? He saved her life several times as I pointed out and advocated for her with her mother enough times that it made a difference in their mother/daughter relationship. These are the ways he tried to make up for what he did to her but they seem to be completely ignored by Caroline and those fans who remain stuck in the past.

Given all of that, I still don't hate Caroline and I think that Elena will make headway with her. Caroline isn't adverse to seeing things differently so this might actually be a good storyline for Caroline's progress as well as Damon's in being seen differently then he has been by others besides Elena.

[Ruby2579]

See but Caroline jumped into bed with Damon n didnt deny it. She said it happened before i knew he was psychopath but i realized it was a cheap shot since Elena witnessed how Damon was using Caroline at the time. So altjough it was cool to see Elena defend herself but dang it was a lowblow

[Doppelgänger]

I kinda think it's about time Elena hit back. She's been dealing with the Damon hate for a while now and keeping her mouth shut, taking it and now she's not gonna take it anymore and personally that makes me happy. She's seen alot of good things about Damon that others haven't and she needs to talk about it and about why she is falling in love with him now, the things that he keeps hidden, like his good/caring side. He's not going to advocate for himself. That's just not him. He's just as happy letting them hate him and having no expectations of him, but she has seen it and she can talk about it so they understand how she can love him.

[Slash]

I just can't stand the girl now. In S1, she was getting her legs just like everyone else with the show's outset and in S2, I think she found her character alongside Tyler finding his. Then, S3 rolled along. What. The. f***. Character was just GONE and S4 just piled on. The Hulkoline crap + being the world's leading Vampire transitioning/advice expect was only made worse with the random Damon hate. As already mentioned in this thread, Damon has looked out for her despite a few bumps (which he has with EVERYONE) and she doesn't have to 'like' him or be his friend because of the pre-Vampire stuff with him but I think a certain bit of respect or appreciation is warranted for what he's done for her since that time. Her trying to get Tyler to make the move against him had me shaking my head. Stefan was just as, if not more hellbent on downing Klaus and killing Originals so why wasn't Caroline plotting to take out 'Brothers Salvatore' instead of 'Lesser Salvatore'?

I'm just done with her character. Contemplating just muting her scenes from now on. The Writers have to literally drag her out of the pit for me to even give a damn about her character again. And yes, I'm in the mindset if she bit a wooden bullet anytime soon, I wouldn't care.

[Deleted]

Sorry I took the thread to a debate level and I am sorry I stated things outside of the thread. Maybe I will make a separate thread for that discussion. I feel like Elena should know the obvious. Does Caroline need to tell Elena why she disapproves f Damon? Well I would say NO, Elena was there. She saw her in that time. she had to help console her at those times. So Elena should understand and prior to the sire bond/vampire Elena she would have understood. She could have said "look I know how he hurt you, and I am sorry he did that and even though he would never admit I believe he is sorry too, but he has been there for me at a time where I needed HIM to be there for me and I am really happy." "So I understand why you are going all Caroline on me about it, but you will have to get use to it because I think I love him."

That would have been Elena.I get that she is a vampire now BUT can she have any part of her personality? I saw no signs of the old Elena in that episode. When you look back at Stefan and Damon they do not seem like completely different people. They seem different but not like how they are changing Elena.

[Doppelgänger]

Everybody changes when they become a vampire, but I would argue that Elena started to change in season 3 away from the compassionate person she was in season 1 and 2 where she was most concerned with those around her, which was a shame because I really liked that about her and we have seen none of it since then.

In season 3 she was pretty callous to Damon's feelings in 3x14 with her saying maybe Damon loving her was the 'the problem' (hated that free for all on Damon episode ) followed closely behind with her "get over it" remark in 3x15. Who the hell was that? Did she channel Katherine for a second there?

I think the way you said Elena should have handled it was good, but the writers saw otherwise. Caroline listened though and kept her mouth shut until the last slip up.

[pixiestyx]

Dec 9, 2012 9:06:32 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

Sorry I took the thread to a debate level and I am sorry I stated things outside of the thread. Maybe I will make a separate thread for that discussion. I feel like Elena should know the obvious. Does Caroline need to tell Elena why she disapproves f Damon? Well I would say NO, Elena was there. She saw her in that time. she had to help console her at those times. So Elena should understand and prior to the sire bond/vampire Elena she would have understood. She could have said "look I know how he hurt you, and I am sorry he did that and even though he would never admit I believe he is sorry too, but he has been there for me at a time where I needed HIM to be there for me and I am really happy." "So I understand why you are going all Caroline on me about it, but you will have to get use to it because I think I love him."

That would have been Elena.I get that she is a vampire now BUT can she have any part of her personality? I saw no signs of the old Elena in that episode. When you look back at Stefan and Damon they do not seem like completely different people. They seem different but not like how they are changing Elena.

But why, exactly, should Elena have phrased it that way? Why can’t she be angry with Caroline for what she said? Why shouldn’t she stand up for Damon? Have you forgotten how Caroline treated Elena in the previous episode? How she told her that the idea of Elena and Damon makes her want to barf? How Elena feels like Caroline doesn’t like her anymore? Elena should get mad. She has a right to. So I said BRAVO to how she stood up to Caroline.

I don’t even know what to say about the comment about Elena not being Elena. Elena is STILL Elena. She has NOT changed all that much. You mentioned that prior to the sire bond, Elena would have understood. What makes you think that she doesn’t now? THREE times in this episode she made it clear that she does understand.

• When Caroline makes the remark about Damon and Elena texting, Elena says “I know that you’re not his biggest fan…..but can you just lay off the remarks?"
  
• When Elena tells them about her sleeping with Damon, she says “I know you guys have issues with him, but I’m happy and I wanted to share that with my best friends”
  
• And finally, she says that she knows that they hate Damon and that she understands why because of his track record but she doesn’t hate him
  

Particularly with the first time, Elena did exactly what you say you wanted her to say to Caroline: told her that she understood that Caroline didn’t like him but Damon changed her life and please lay off the comments.

Even though Elena feels that Caroline doesn’t like her as a vampire she invites Caroline to girls night because she still considers Caroline is one of her best friends. When Caroline gets captured she offers herself as a replacement for torture. At the end of the episode she forgives Caroline without hesitation or judgement. How are any of these actions not Elena?

Elena has changed, yes, but she hasn’t had a complete personality transplant. She’s let go of all her sorrow and guilt and is closer to how she was before the accident. She’s freer, and doesn’t care as much about what others think. And she’s happy; she was happier in this episode than I’ve ever seen her. Caroline changed when she turned too; she let go of her insecurities and became more confident. She came into her own, like Stefan said. Just as Elena is doing now.

I’m sorry, I know this is going OT for this topic but I just had to say it.

[Deleted]

Well I guess Elena has just has much as Caroline to be mad. The thing is Caroline knew about the sire bond so everything Elena said just was further showing how much the bond has taken over Elena and frustrating her even more. I guess yes she said those thigs, but she needed to say it after she knew about the bond.not before because in Caroline's eyes it was just reaffirming her suspicions.

I completely disagree this is Elena. She can't even make choices that don't involve Damon and it has been more and more each episode and I think that was on purpose (by the writers)

This last episode she was happy, but how much of that happiness is a facade that has been created due to influence of the sire bond and the things that Damon has said to her. I seem to remember a couple episodes ago she was pretty much devastated on who she has become that she was sobbing digging a grave for a man that she killed because Damon told her to.

Confidence is one thing, but I see much more than a confidence change in Elena. I mean does she even care about her brother and what is happening to him or just that he wants to kill her? Does she even care that she could have stayed with Caroline or Bonnie instead if making it impossible for Stefan to stay in his own house? This is not just a more confident Elena.

[Slash]

Dec 9, 2012 15:41:41 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

I mean does she even care about her brother and what is happening to him or just that he wants to kill her?

What? Didn't she chew out Stefan because he was using Jeremy to get this fabled 'cure' for her? She doesn't want to be human again if it puts Jeremy at risk/destroys him in the process. Jeremy is the only family she has left. If she had known that Jeremy was such a large piece of the puzzle for the cure, I think she would have shut down any progress on it from the Salvatores at the mere mentioning. I'm sure she'd do the same if she found out Bonnie was nothing more than a pawn in it as well.

The damage is done: she's a Vampire. If her friends and family are being used/put at risk, she'll settle with what she is now. That's something she'll take over the others putting themselves in the same position they were in when she was human to 'protect/help' her.

[pixiestyx]

But Elena can make choices that don’t revolve around Damon. She has actively gone against what he told her to do.

He told her to kill Connor. But he also told her that she was not going after him because he was dangerous. She said no, she was going after Jeremy. And she only killed Connor after he threatened Jeremy and tried to kill her

Damon told her to feed of that first girl on the college campus but she refuses because, as she said, “I’m still me”

Damon told Elena explicitly to go to Stefan, to talk to Stefan but she refused.

Even in the last episode Damon wanted to keep their relationship a secret (and not just from Stefan) but she still tells Caroline and Bonnie.

Yes, Elena was miserable and broke down after she killed Connor. Because she didn’t want to hurt anyone. She really struggled with being a vampire and I think part of that is how Stefan projected all of his hang ups on to her. Why shouldn’t she be happy with what Damon has told her? He’s told her that there is nothing to be ashamed of with being a vampire. He’s told her that she looks more alive. Stefan, on the other hand, wants to “fix” her. Damon has been the only one, other than Matt, who has completely accepted her.

Of course she still cares about what is going on with Jeremy. Elena was angry with Stefan multiple times for putting Jeremy at risk. In the scene where she’s burying Connor, she says “you promised to protect him” because Stefan left Jeremy bleeding from a gunshot wound while he saved Connor. She was angry with him again when she found out what he forced Jeremy to do. She flat out told Stefan that she NOT willing to sacrifice Jeremy’s sanity or well being for this cure. She doesn’t blame Jeremy for the situation and tries to remove herself from it.

She didn’t make it impossible for Stefan to live in his own house. Stefan made that decision all on his own. There are what, 5 bedrooms in the Salvatore house? Stefan told her to choose any room. And then LEFT OF HIS OWN ACCORD. I was pretty shocked that he did that to be honest. He didn’t have to leave.

And yes, maybe Elena could have gone to Bonnie’s or even Alaric’s old apartment ( I don’t think Caroline was an option for her).