Anti mythology rewrites!

[missmystic]

Ok, is anyone else annoyed at the completely rewritten mythology for this season?
And TVD isn't alone in this, the Originals is also completely disregarding already established story lines and mythology.  Both shows are sort of acting like the other one doesn't exist. The established mythology for TVD was that the Petrova doppelganger was created because of the spell placed on Klaus.  Now they're telling us there have been doppelgangers running around for thousands of years?  So how did some Greek slave girl end up with a family line from Bulgaria?  And between falling in love with Silas and getting murdered by Qetsiyah, when exactly did Amara have a baby to continue her line? (And same goes for Nadia, by the way.  The girl who's so hung up on having been "abandoned" by her mother, has a baby and then abandons her kid to become a vampire just like her mother?  Is that what they're saying?  Cause how else does Elena exist then ...)  Does everyone in the Petrova/Amara line have a baby out of wedlock and then turn into an immortal or die?  How can these writers really be so oblivious??   
Meanwhile the whole Klaus part of the story now wants us to believe that the girl Tatia who was sacrificed for the spell that bound Klaus' werewolf side was already a doppelganger?  So now we're supposed to believe it's just coincidence that they happened to pick her as the sacrifice?  Not to mention, I'm annoyed because I was hoping they would at some point tell that story in more detail.  If you remember in the flashback scene where Elijah first meets Katherine his reaction to her is very strong.  Obviously there was supposed to have been some sort of relationship between whoever that first girl Tatia was and the Mikaelson brothers.  I wanted to hear about that story!  Now we have to pretend like none of it meant anything because the doppelgangers had nothing to do with Klaus .... AHHHHH!!!!

[beangelic1000]

In regards to Silas and Amara, the doppelgangers have to be born into the bloodline. That means that both Silas and Amara had family (parents, siblings, aunts and uncles) this is a bloodline. If you understand how a family tree works then you will understand how a bloodline works, you have branches and nodes that extend out from the root and Amara's root will be her parents and Silas's root also the parents back in those days it was not unusual for there to be plenty of siblings, these siblings will be the branches with nodes attached, the number of nodes will be the number of children each sibling has and attached to each node will be a branch and so on and so on. Katherine being born into the Petrova family means they are part of that bloodline which would be either through the mother or father. The same with Salvatore family they are part of the Silas bloodline since Stefan was born into the Salvatore bloodline and we know this is true because Silas called Damon nephew. Elena's mother was part of Amara's family bloodline.

By the way Qetsiyah didn't actually murder Amara, that is the story she told Silas infact she made Amara the anchor.
There is no DC connection between the originals and the doppelgangers. The only reason why there could be a connection is that the originals mother may have used Tatia's blood in the ritual that saw them become vampires.

[missmystic]

Ok, true, I didn't think about the other family members of Silas and Amara. But what about Nadia? She was Katherine's last remaining family member, so she HAD to have had a baby. And that baby had to have grown up and had a baby and so on, since there was no one else left in that family. I guess we're just not supposed to ask. Whatever.
BUT, the entire second season of TVD is about how the doppelganger curse is all to do with Klaus ... Whoever Tatia was, back 1000 years ago when the Originals were first turned, that girl wasn't used to make them vampires, she was used to bind Klaus' werewolf side. That's why he needs Elena's blood for the sacrifice so he can be a werewolf again! That's why he wanted Katherine! How can you say there's no connection?? For the whole first 4 seasons that was the WHOLE POINT of Elena being a doppelganger. Then, this season, all of a sudden they change everything. And that girl definitely had a relationship with the Mikaelson family, because both Elijah and Rebekah commented on Elena's "resemblance" to the "first one".

[beangelic1000]

Don't get confused, all it means is that Katherine's branch of the family tree (bloodline) ends with Nadia, and since there has been no mention of a child connected to Nadia then we have to assume that there is no child to add to the branch node on Natia's part of the tree, therefore, this part of the family tree (bloodline) has come to an end, but that doesn't mean that it has ended elsewhere. What you have to remember is that Isobel, Elena's mother also comes from Katherine's bloodline and she was younger then Nadia, since she had Elena aged around 16 years old, that puts her aged at 34 years old when she died. That means 4 centuries after Nadia was born, Isobel was born and Isobel gave birth to a doppelganger (Elena), therefore, here is a prime example of a continuation of the family tree.

In regards to why the doppelganger blood has become special when it comes to using it for magical purposes has not been fully explained, maybe the entrance of Markos into the traveller storyline will shed some light on this, however, the doppelgangers came into existence because Silas tricked Quetsiyah into making an immortality potion by making her believe that it was for them to be drunk on their wedding day. That he loved her and wanted to be with her for eternity. By the time that Quetsiyah had learnt the truth it was too late, the potion had been drunk by Silas and Amara instead. By making themselves immortal Silas and Amara had upset the balance of nature, so the only way that nature could restore this balance was to create shadow souls, doppelgangers who would die in their stead.

Quetsiyah's revenge on Silas was to pretend that she had killed Amara (but she was alive and had become the anchor to the other side created by Quetsiyah for herself and Silas) Quesiyah had made another potion (the cure) which returned the Status Que (reversed the immortality potion) She offered this too Silas to take so that he would become mortal again and live a normal life with her and when they died he would join her behind the veil, but Silas refused so Quetisyah dessicated him, placed him in a tomb with the cure and cursed him (only blood could raise him) since Quetsiyah know that Silas will remain dessicated but alive in his tomb long after she was dead so she created The Five (hunters who in the event that Silas was to raise from his tomb would find him shove the cure down his throat and kill him the moment he became mortal again)

Somewhere across the centures the other side (behind the veil) had turned into a place of purgatory for all supernatural beings, and The Five where joined by other hunters whose job was now to hunt down and kill all vampires.

A 1000 years after Silas was dessciated and placed in his tomb, Esther a witch along with her husband Mikeal(who became the Original hunter along with The Five) decided on a course of action that was to change their lives and the lives of their children forever. After their youngest son Hendrick was killed by a werewolf (this due to Klaus disobeying his parents orders to stay away) she decided that the children needed to be protected from the werewolf manias. The more experienced witch that Esther went to refused and warned her that there would be consiquences if she went ahead with her plan (the use of dark magic) but Esther did it anyway and as a direct result she created the original vampires. Klaus needed at first Katherine's blood, but after she turned the human Elena's blood to make himself into a hybrid (half vampire, half werewolf) which would give him an advandage over both vampires and werewolves) this possible because Mikeal was not his father since Esther had an affair with a werewolf, Klaus's real father.

The 2nd Season had nothing to do with the doppelganger curse, since they had been created 1000 years before Klaus was born. Klaus, just need a human doppelganger so he could become a hybrid and create a hybrid army.

[Doppelgänger]

I think what she's saying is that she believed they are direct descendants of each other so therefore Nadia had to have had a child in order for Isobel to have been born and given birth to Elena, NOT some sister or brother of Katherine having the doppelganger continue through them, but I believe you are right, it doesn't have to directly descend. I think the confusion comes when they call Katherine Elena's great great (etc) Grandmother when in fact she may be her great great Aunt instead. We don't really know and since it's not explained we have to assume it could be any blood connection. On the other hand it could still be that Nadia DID have a child and it went forward from there and does have to be a direct descendant. But since they haven't actually told us which way it is, it's not really an error in the show.

[beangelic1000]

Yes, I did understand what she meant, what I was trying to convey is that the doppelganger can be born into any family that is part of the bloodline (family tree)

Katherine was born into the Petrova family that means the link or connection to Amara's family tree is either thorugh the father or mother. Stefam was born into the Salvatore family that means the connection or link to Silas's family tree comes either through the mother or father. We know that Damon is part of that same bloodline because Silas called him nephew.

[Doppelgänger]

Mar 27, 2014 16:06:39 GMT -5 beangelic1000 said:

Yes, I did understand what she meant, what I was trying to convey is that the doppelganger can be born into any family that is part of the bloodline (family tree)

Katherine was born into the Petrova family that means the link or connection to Amara's family tree is either thorugh the father or mother. Stefam was born into the Salvatore family that means the connection or link to Silas's family tree comes either through the mother or father. We know that Damon is part of that same bloodline because Silas called him nephew.

Well perhaps but they haven't said that specifically the doppelgangers don't come directly down like this: Katherine>Nadia>?>?>?>Tatia?>?>?>Isobel>Elena or if it could be different than that and come from a sibling.

[beangelic1000]

Doppel, they kind of have told us, because Stefan exists within the Salvatore bloodline. Elena comes from Isobel's bloodline. And we were told that the doppelgangers are born within the bloodline of the original pairing. Quetsiyah never mentioned Silas having any children with Amara, and Silas himself never mentioned having children with Amara, therefore, no issue, therefore, for the doppelganger to be born into their blooodline means they had siblings, and this is confirmed since Silas himself called Damon nephew. Moreover, in a roundabout way we were told, and I guess the scripwriters will assume that there is no need to explain how a family tree works since as grown ups we should already know this......

The root of Katherine's tree are her parents, then Katherine who had Nadia, then nothing at the end of this particular branch node since there has been no mention of Nadia having a child since Nadia herself never mentioned one in her back story. That means Isobel came from another branch node on the family tree and on the node of her branch is Elena, since Elena is a vampire now, she cannot produce children that means like Nadia there will be no continuation on her branch node.

[Doppelgänger]

But Silas's bloodline is not Amara's bloodline. I imagine there were two, one for each doppelganger, not necessarily one from Silas/Amara directly. However, now that there was this third doppelganger of Stefan, he could not have come directly from Stefan unless he impregnated someone before he was 17 and turned...lol So I think indirectly that tells us that it doesn't have to be a direct descendent or else it really is a huge error in the writing.

[missmystic]

Yes exactly Doppel. Also, they actually DID tell us that Elena is from Katherine's bloodline. They said Katherine was interested in Isobel because of "familial curiosity." And Klaus thought he had killed Katherine's entire bloodline, except he didn't know about the baby she gave up. That baby, Nadia, was how Katherine's line was supposed to have continued in order for Isobel to have been born, and then subsequently Elena. Therefore Nadia HAD to have had a baby before she became a vampire. This is all fact they established in the second season. Katherine IS Elena's ancestor. They said it outright.

[beangelic1000]

My bad, I just assumed that you knew that Silas's shadow souls (doppelgangers) are born into his bloodline and Amara's shodow souls (dobblegangers) are born in her bloodline. I also assumed that you understood about family trees and how they worked, so something is getting lost in translations.


I'll try again. Doppel you and I have a bloodline, the root of your bloodline are your parents, they will have a branch node for every child they have (yourself and any brothers and sisters) if you were Amara and didn't have any children then there would be nothing at the end of your branch node, therefore no generations connected to you, however, your doppelgangers can come through any of your siblings branch nodes since they like you share the bloodline of your parents(DNA).

Therefore, Katherine came through one branch of the family tree and Elena came through another. That meant prior to Katherine's death two Amara doppelgangers existed, and two Silas doppelgangers existed (i.e Stefan and Tom).

Katherine's death meant only one doppelganger now existed (Elena), and now that Enzo has killed Tom, now only Stefan exists. Tom like Elena was the more recent doppelgangers. However, all it means is that the family that Katherine was born into had a branch on that family tree which traces right back to Amara's parents. And the family that Stefan was born to has a branch on that family tree that traces right back to Silas's parents. I hope that is a little clearer.

[beangelic1000]

Mar 28, 2014 13:03:39 GMT -5 missmystic said:

Yes exactly Doppel. Also, they actually DID tell us that Elena is from Katherine's bloodline. They said Katherine was interested in Isobel because of "familial curiosity." And Klaus thought he had killed Katherine's entire bloodline, except he didn't know about the baby she gave up. That baby, Nadia, was how Katherine's line was supposed to have continued in order for Isobel to have been born, and then subsequently Elena. Therefore Nadia HAD to have had a baby before she became a vampire. This is all fact they established in the second season. Katherine IS Elena's ancestor. They said it outright.

Of course they are from the same bloodline, that is exactly what my post has laid out in great detail.  Katherine is going to be interested in Isobel because she comes from another branch of that same family tree, maybe one that Katherine herself didn't know existed.   Klaus only killed Katherine's parents, that means he only killed a part of that family tree.  In that event he is correct, because after Katherine is only Nadia so this line of the family tree is dead.

[Doppelgänger]

Mar 28, 2014 13:58:15 GMT -5 beangelic1000 said:

Mar 28, 2014 13:03:39 GMT -5 missmystic said:

Yes exactly Doppel. Also, they actually DID tell us that Elena is from Katherine's bloodline. They said Katherine was interested in Isobel because of "familial curiosity." And Klaus thought he had killed Katherine's entire bloodline, except he didn't know about the baby she gave up. That baby, Nadia, was how Katherine's line was supposed to have continued in order for Isobel to have been born, and then subsequently Elena. Therefore Nadia HAD to have had a baby before she became a vampire. This is all fact they established in the second season. Katherine IS Elena's ancestor. They said it outright.

Of course they are from the same bloodline, that is exactly what my post has laid out in great detail.  Katherine is going to be interested in Isobel because she comes from another branch of that same family tree, maybe one that Katherine herself didn't know existed.   Klaus only killed Katherine's parents, that means he only killed a part of that family tree.  In that event he is correct, because after Katherine is only Nadia so this line of the family tree is dead.

I get how family trees work and the branches of the family tree and what you're saying. What we don't know for certain because the show has not told us specifically is whether it has to be a direct descendant, meaning the doppelganger is born directly down from the other doppelganger (Grandmother to granddaughter for example). Up until recent events that is what it appeared.  Now with Tom showing up and Silas calling Damon nephew it does look like your theory is more plausible.

[beangelic1000]

Mar 28, 2014 17:55:01 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Mar 28, 2014 13:58:15 GMT -5 beangelic1000 said:

Of course they are from the same bloodline, that is exactly what my post has laid out in great detail.  Katherine is going to be interested in Isobel because she comes from another branch of that same family tree, maybe one that Katherine herself didn't know existed.   Klaus only killed Katherine's parents, that means he only killed a part of that family tree.  In that event he is correct, because after Katherine is only Nadia so this line of the family tree is dead.

I get how family trees work and the branches of the family tree and what you're saying. What we don't know for certain because the show has not told us specifically is whether it has to be a direct descendant, meaning the doppelganger is born directly down from the other doppelganger (Grandmother to granddaughter for example). Up until recent events that is what it appeared.  Now with Tom showing up and Silas calling Damon nephew it does look like your theory is more plausible.

Yes, they have told us in a roundabout way if you work everything out backwards. Tom has come from a different branch of the same family tree as Stefan. Isobel like her daughter Elena is also more recent since she was only in her early thirties when she died, that means she came into existence thirty two/four years ago and Elena 19/18 years ago.

From what little information the writers have given us on the show, it is clear that both Silas and Amara had no children together.  Both Silas and Quetsiyah's version of events about what took place over two thousand years ago makes no mention of this factor, therefore, any doppelgangers for both pairings had to come from another link on the family trees of both Silas and Amara. Now we know back in those times people had large families, even 1000 years after Amara became the immortal human anchor to the other side, and Silas lay desiccated in his tomb an immotal human witch, the Mikelsons whose  children because of the dark magic used to protect them against werewolves resulted in the first original vampires, however, getting back to the point Mikeal and Esther had seven children, one died in the old country, their youngest Hendrik died in the new country after coming too close for comfort to a werewolf (this due to Klaus) and of the remaining five, Rebekah, Kol, Finn, Klaus and Elijah only three are left.   So we know it was very rare in those days for families to be less then three.

From the information given by Sloan, and Liv & Luke it looks like the family tree is virtually down to two members. Again it looked like Tom was single, therefore, his death means this part of the family tree is dead, and Stefan is a vampire so there can be no children coming from him, he is the last of the Silas doppelgangers. The same goes for Elena since she is also a vampire that means she is the last of the Amara dobblegangers. With Silas and Amara dead it means that everything has come full circle and enter Markos.

[chrizakathemole]

The mythology change that annoys me is it was established early on than older = stronger. Yet Elena was stronger than katherine , Katherine's daughter seemed weaker than everyone. Caroline has over powered Damon. It bugs me every time.