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Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 18, 2014 23:39:08 GMT -5
This debate thread started by AnbuPrincess with the following message:
This debate was made in continuation of the topic started in the 6x05 thread so that it doesn't become too offtopic and for those who'd like to continue can do so here. Do you feel some characters constantly suffer more than their fair share while others have it way too good? Here's the thread where you can share your thoughts on the matter. Keep in mind this is a debate thread so if you plan to post here others will also have the opportunity to respond/question your thoughts as well.
I'd also like to add that it'd be great if things could remain objective and no unnecessary bashing of a character or brushing off their suffering just because said character isn't much of a favorite. There are appropriate anti threads where that can be done freely and people who do like said characters won't have to worry about seeing hate they try to avoid.
This is just a way to keep things civil and tensions from running high in this thread.
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The original post that started the conversation:
Chrizackathemole: My anger to it is more everything always happens to Bonnie. finds her mother - mother gets killed , becomes powerful witch - dies , become ancore so shes alive - always in pain. It's like the writers use her to have a character be hurt and it irritates me as i like bonnie lol I haven't got time at the moment, but I will be providing my contribution on why I believe that Bonnie is the character that gets the raw end of the deal, and I use that term instead of suffering the most, because everyone has suffered to a certain degree, but it is the Bonnie character that gets shafted without question and comes off the worst, so more on this from me later. Just a quick reminder why even the online TV mags say Bonnie is the most put-upon-character on the show. Here we have a situation, where Bonnie is alone, and the only person actually tryng to rally support to get her back is Damon, but even he is having a hard time trying to get the gang together to mount any kind of rescue for Bonnie, whatever problems they have takes priority. Bonnie is the person who everyone expects to put her life on hold even if her life is in crisis, to help them out, yet it takes Damon forcing their hand to get them on board. Elena is invisable to everyone but Kai, the minute they realise she is missing, everyone without question will drop whatever problems they have to go find her, while Bonnie waits alone in a 1994 AU, hoping for a miracle. Bonnie is the first on everyones list when they need help, but the last on everyones list when it comes to being helped. The majority of the people in this group have known Bonnie all their lives, and for Damon, Stefan and Aleric for as long as they have known the rest of the gang, yet even newbies who they have known only a very short length of time, have been given more priority then Bonnie. She is not even a priority on Jeremy's list, he prefers to sink into a bottle and sleep with random women, and knowing that his girl is still alone on the otherside waiting for someone to come get her, is he doing all he can to find an alternative ascendant so that she can return.....No! instead he is helping Matt get rid of Enzo. Jeremy knows that Bonnie is alive, and he knows that Damon's mission to get her back failed, and it doesn't matter what the circumstances under which they parted, at the end of the day, he is alive because of her, he died and she sacrificed her life to bring him back, he should be doing all in his power to find a way to bring her back. And because Aleric chose to listen to Joe rather then Damon about not killing Kai, it means now that Elena's gone missing, Damon is forced to take time out of finding a way to get Bonnie back, to now go look for Elena. At the moment as it stands, Bonnie isn't a priority on anyones list, she is alone, and that is what people are talking about. It is her standing within this group of friends. They all have someone within the group that will make them a priority, Bonnie has no one not even Jeremy. So when people state that Bonnie endures the most, this is what they mean. Someone needs to make her a priority and maybe Damon could be the one too change all that........... I guess I'll wait for the rest of your thoughts because this doesn't really explain why you think she's got it worse than anyone else. Anything that's happened to her has happened to a lot of the other characters too. Being trapped but alive isn't the worst fate for her right now. Damon knows now that she is alive and Kai isn't there so she isn't in danger right now so if Elena IS in danger right now then yeah, she needs to be the priority and even Bonnie could understand that and would agree. She isn't alone with nobody trying to help her. They all know that she is alive now and all are on board to getting her back as soon as they realized she wasn't dead. How they go about that is going to take some time, planning and figuring out how to do it without the ascendant or somehow getting the ascendant back. It isn't an instant fix. I honestly think Bonnie fans complain far too much about everything that happens or doesn't happen with her as if she's a special case when really all the characters get the short end of the stick from time to time. We could sit here and give examples for each character of unfair things that have happened to them and that has really been my point in all this. They all have suffered ALOT. Nobody gets away scot free in this show...JP is a sadist...lol
As for Jeremy, I kind of get where he is coming from even though he isn't handling it well at all. He thought she was dead. Now he knows she's alive but he doesn't know if they can ever get her back. He isn't letting himself feel hope because he's afraid to, basically. He doesn't want to lose her all over again in his heart. I totally get that's where he's coming from. It isn't that he doesn't care. Could he handle it better? Yeah! But this is how he's handling it and everyone deals with grief and loss differently, I suppose. These Gilberts are particularly horrible at it but then again they've probably lost the most people in their lives and are just plain winging it anymore trying to get through more grief any way they can...
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Post by beangelic1000 on Dec 19, 2014 1:29:58 GMT -5
Just to narrow it down for you a little..... why across the board people point to Bonnie and no one else, it is the fact that in this group no one puts Bonnie first, I thought that bit was at least clear, it is why I used gets shafted rather then suffered, because everyone as far as I'm concerned suffers on this show, no one more so then Damon, but in the dynamics of the group is where we see Bonnie's plight best illustrated.
I've been on DE forums where I have seen posts stating no one cares about Bonnie anyway not even her friends, that is not coming out of thin air, it is based on their observations of how this groups dynamics work, we are seeing it in play now. Bonnie has no help at all, apart from Damon, and when Damon has to search for Elena which all the group will do, Bonnie stands completely alone. And in a kind of way that is how it has always been, but now with her in the AU it is even more clearly illustrated.
You would have thought that since Jeremy loves her, she would at least be his priority, but thus far he has yet to demonstrate this. Even Damon in the past has showed more concern for Bonnie then Jeremy has, and now that they have bonded, he is clearly the one more concerned about gettng her back, the others show some concern but not enought to make her their priority.
Elena has suffered grief but she has always been a priority to the group and that makes a difference. Infact Elena has the best support system in the group dynamics and Bonnie has the worst.
It is not a coincidence that people pick the Bonnie character, it is something that has been observed by viewers throughout the seasons. But, in this season it is more glaringly obvious.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 19, 2014 7:10:03 GMT -5
Just to narrow it down for you a little..... why across the board people point to Bonnie and no one else, it is the fact that in this group no one puts Bonnie first, I thought that bit was at least clear, it is why I used gets shafted rather then suffered, because everyone as far as I'm concerned suffers on this show, no one more so then Damon, but in the dynamics of the group is where we see Bonnie's plight best illustrated. I've been on DE forums where I have seen posts stating no one cares about Bonnie anyway not even her friends, that is not coming out of thin air, it is based on their observations of how this groups dynamics work, we are seeing it in play now. Bonnie has no help at all, apart from Damon, and when Damon has to search for Elena which all the group will do, Bonnie stands completely alone. And in a kind of way that is how it has always been, but now with her in the AU it is even more clearly illustrated. You would have thought that since Jeremy loves her, she would at least be his priority, but thus far he has yet to demonstrate this. Even Damon in the past has showed more concern for Bonnie then Jeremy has, and now that they have bonded, he is clearly the one more concerned about gettng her back, the others show some concern but not enought to make her their priority. Elena has suffered grief but she has always been a priority to the group and that makes a difference. Infact Elena has the best support system in the group dynamics and Bonnie has the worst. It is not a coincidence that people pick the Bonnie character, it is something that has been observed by viewers throughout the seasons. But, in this season it is more glaringly obvious. That's not a true statement though. Anyone can say whatever they want but it doesn't make it true. They all love Bonnie. They all talk about how much they love Bonnie. They can't just get her out of that place easily and they did already attempt to do it once. I'm not sure what Bonnie fans expect... I've been pissed off at times over the lack of concern for Damon when he's being tortured and they don't make him a priority. Now THAT was glaringly obvious. It doesn't just happen to Bonnie. I'm sure Stefan's fans are pissed that he was in a trunk in the bottom of the quarry all summer with nobody even looking for him. I'll bet they think Stefan has suffered the most...it's all perspective. |
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Post by beangelic1000 on Dec 19, 2014 7:58:17 GMT -5
We will agree to disagree, but when the question is asked.....the majority answer will be Bonnie.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 19, 2014 8:56:29 GMT -5
We will agree to disagree, but when the question is asked.....the majority answer will be Bonnie. Well you have to have something to back that up or it's just lip service and since this is a debate, you generally have to give reasons why you think that in order to have a debate, then your reasons have to be valid in order for your 'side' to convince the other side they've missed something in their viewpoint. I could say that Damon has it the worst and in my opinion he does and I could list off all the reasons why but I know that it's mainly because I watch him the closest and I care about that character the most and that does have an impact on how I view the show and it's the same with the Bonnie fans. They've wanted to see more of her forever. They've wanted her to have a meaningful storyline. They've been frustrated by the lack of Bonnie scenes (even if it is because Kat isn't signed on for more) and that frustration gives rise to complaints that she is treated worse than the rest, but when I really look at it, I don't see that she is treated worse than the rest. I see a lot of people saying it and repeating it but nobody able to actually back it up with evidence that can't be disputed by showing that the same crap happens to all of them. Her parents died? Well whose parents haven't? She's unlucky in love? Which character in this show has had an actual relationship that hasn't either been ruined or gone through seriously rough times? She's left for dead? Well so was Damon. Who was looking for either of them? See my point? She's just not the only one who has suffered at all or even suffered the most, as some people think, and she is loved by the gang which is more than some of them can say. Elena fans think Elena has suffered the most and they do have a valid argument there because Elena has been through it all several times over, but she is also loved ALOT by everyone which makes her situation (and Bonnie's in my opinion) a bit better than if they weren't loved. But that's how I see it...and everyone is going to see it a little bit different, but in the end if you try to be objective they've all had it pretty crappy. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 9:06:54 GMT -5
I think it's more so the situation that Bonnie is in and not her person. She's not in some other town they can all drive to, she's in some alternate dimension, that's actually a prison for Kai.
When Damon was trapped in the AU with her, no one was rushing to the rescue instantly either. No one had a clue to get them out. This was unknown territory for the gang, while some tried searching Caroline through books and Stefan with witches before he gave up and moved on, others like the Gilberts felt hopeless and grieved in their own way. Ironically it was Kai that gave Damon and Bonnie the item and clue to get out and then Bonnie's magic was the key.
Again Damon's character didn't get out with the help of the gang, it was Bonnie's choice to trigger the ascendant and send him solely, leaving her and Kai alone in the AU.
It also feels like it's forgotten who Bonnie is as a character. Bonnie had another chance to get out with smooth talking Kai. She could have escaped with him, finally get out, but instead she sent all her magic to the real world, again trapping herself with Kai. She didn't want to let him out at all. Bonnie's character is very sacrificial and selfless, she could have went screw it in regards to Kai's history but she didn't.
I can understand the feelings of Bonnie always being the one to be left behind, to make the sacrifices, but at the same time I get confused because at the end of the day it's Bonnie herself who makes these choices, no one's forcing her to constantly put others first. In previous seasons Bonnie always did what she felt was the right thing to do, even going behind the gang's back to do something completely different. Bonnie is protective by nature, and while some Bonnie fans may hate Elena and how Bonnie makes the sacrifices for her, Bonnie's character loves Elena like a sister and is always willing to do what it takes to save Elena.
Damon's not the only sole person in the group who cares about Bonnie or wants to save her, he didn't go to that AU alone, he went with Elena. Liv offered her magic to help them. No one has uttered the words, 'No we're not saving Bonnie!'. With the scary tales from Jo and her father, the risk of Kai getting out and wreaking havoc, they just wanted to take precautions. Damon's just the character that doesn't care what the risks is, he's willing to take chances, that's just his character.
Bonnie will likely feel the same way about Kai's escape, since she risked her chance to get out to keep Kai trapped with her, her need to see her loved ones again was overshadowed by her need to keep Kai trapped. In the end, Kai's getting out was what sabotaged Bobnie's rescue and Damon's ambitious plan backfired.
Bonnie's rescue is not something that will happen overnight and I was just as frustrated with Damon trapped yet everyone going on like normal. At least now the gang knows that she is indeed alive and well and another attempt to rescue her will be made.
During the Christmas ep and her burning of the tree, Bonnie likely regretted her choice of making the sacrifice with her magic and not working with Kai to get out, and is tired of being in the lonely AU so her new stance when she does get out is understandable.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 19, 2014 9:17:08 GMT -5
I think it's more so the situation that Bonnie is in and not her person. She's not in some other town they can all drive to, she's in some alternate dimension, that's actually a prison for Kai. When Damon was trapped in the AU with her, no one was rushing to the rescue instantly either. No one had a clue to get them out. This was unknown territory for the gang, while some tried searching Caroline through books and Stefan with witches before he gave up and moved on, others like the Gilberts felt hopeless and grieved in their own way. Ironically it was Kai that gave Damon and Bonnie the item and clue to get out and then Bonnie's magic was the key. Again Damon's character didn't get out with the help of the gang, it was Bonnie's choice to trigger the ascendant and send him solely, leaving her and Kai alone in the AU. It also feels like it's forgotten who Bonnie is as a character. Bonnie had another chance to get out with smooth talking Kai. She could have escaped with him, finally get out, but instead she sent all her magic to the real world, again trapping herself with Kai. She didn't want to let him out at all. Bonnie's character is very sacrificial and selfless, she could have went screw it in regards to Kai's history but she didn't. I can understand the feelings of Bonnie always being the one to be left behind, to make the sacrifices, but at the same time I get confused because at the end of the day it's Bonnie herself who makes these choices, no one's forcing her to constantly put others first. In previous seasons Bonnie always did what she felt was the right thing to do, even going behind the gang's back to do something completely different. Bonnie is protective by nature, and while some Bonnie fans may hate Elena and how Bonnie makes the sacrifices for her, Bonnie's character loves Elena like a sister and is always willing to do what it takes to save Elena. Damon's not the only sole person in the group who cares about Bonnie or wants to save her, he didn't go to that AU alone, he went with Elena. Liv offered her magic to help them. No one has uttered the words, 'No we're not saving Bonnie!'. With the scary tales from Jo and her father, the risk of Kai getting out and wreaking havoc, they just wanted to take precautions. Damon's just the character that doesn't care what the risks is, he's willing to take chances, that's just his character. Bonnie will likely feel the same way about Kai's escape, since she risked her chance to get out to keep Kai trapped with her, her need to see her loved ones again was overshadowed by her need to keep Kai trapped. In the end, Kai's getting out was what sabotaged Bobnie's rescue and Damon's ambitious plan backfired. Bonnie's rescue is not something that will happen overnight and I was just as frustrated with Damon trapped yet everyone going on like normal. At least now the gang knows that she is indeed alive and well and another attempt to rescue her will be made. During the Christmas ep and her burning of the tree, Bonnie likely regretted her choice of making the sacrifice with her magic and not working with Kai to get out, and is tired of being in the lonely AU so her new stance when she does get out is understandable. This is true, too, which is why I hope she doesn't suddenly go ooc and stop being that way because she's been trapped and missed Christmas with her friends. She did make that choice of her own free will knowing she might never get out. It doesn't make sense to point fingers at it now and say look how bad Bonnie's got it. Bonnie did it to herself. Yes, it was a brave and selfless thing to do but nobody made her do it. She didn't get to these places because she's unfortunate and I think that's the point here. Her choices have put her in these life or death situations. They were still the right choices made by a fearless girl who would do anything to protect her loved ones but they were still choices. So if we were going to look at unfortunate events happening to people that had nothing to do with choices I'd say Elena (and Jeremy) would win that hands down. So like I said, it's all perspective and favoritism that drives why we think these characters have it worse than others in the end. We'd be hard pressed to come up with a rating system for which bad thing is worse than the other that has happened to them all. They all just have it bad...period. This show is tragic which is scary because how will it all end? lol |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 19, 2014 9:29:02 GMT -5
Oh and dare I say it, if it weren't for Damon having a brain none of these people would do anything. We witnessed it when both he and Bonnie were trapped. They are the only two who ever fixed any problems the gang had...lol So it's par for the course for them all to sit around twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing for Damon and Bonnie when they are trapped or in danger. I'm not sure that combined they have enough brain power to do it! LOL J/K But seriously we saw it in action as they each scattered and only worried about their own pain while doing next to nothing to see if they were still alive so nobody should be surprised that it takes Damon actually executing a plan to attempt to get her back.
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Post by chrizakathemole on Dec 19, 2014 10:13:42 GMT -5
3 times I wrote out a reply only to have my browser crash and keep nothing. ****ing typing it in word and copy and paste now lol (sorry if any part is too sarcastic or too black and white that’s just me lol)
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Now a few factors were brought up I’d like to address/say my part on.
1 “Bonnie makes the choices herself” – Most (not all) of the time that is correct. However pop quiz time board? What happens when other cast members try to sacrifice themselves like for example “Elena”?
A ) the gang talk her out of it
B ) Her ship of the week stops them
C ) someone else does it so she can live
D ) all of the above!
If you answered D you win! Congradulations.
Now double or nothing what happens when Bonnie does it?
A ) her “friends” say “noooo” but let it happen anyway
B ) Her ship tries to stop it but ultimately lets it happen anyway
C ) No one notices as it’s Bonnie
And that is the key problem with this. Every good guy on this show has tried it at least once. Every one has been stopped at least once. Bonnie’s is almost never stopped (in fact I can’t think of any where it was)
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2 “Everyone has lost someone” That is true! However is it really that simple? Let’s look at the main deaths they had
Elena : Jenna – Lost her only to find she had found peace on the other side later on thus making her feel better.
Jeremy and damon – Lost both (different times) only to have quick fix (turning off emotions or mind wipe) only to have them return less than a season later alive
Stefan: Lexi – lost her only to have her pop up every season to be his friend. Eventually erased
Damon – returned less than a season later
Caroline : Her dad – His death helped her know despite him hating vampires he still loved his daughter for been her.
Damon : Alaric – popped up later told him to get the girl (not in a singing lobster “kiss the girl” way though that’d be epic!) returned
Matt : Vicki – this one was bad not going to sugar coat it. She died returned , returned making deal with with the devil (though arguably the fact we was willing to return by killing Elena made matt just get over her)
Jeremy – Jenna – see elena
Anne – Died but returned to date him as a ghost
Tyler: His abusive dad he thought was a dick
His mother who never saw anyway as he’s always going off on his own
Bonnie : Her dad murdered for no good reason
Her gran : Died , returned once to give help, returned again been tortured on ther side, returned again to get erased from existence! (the WORST imo loss)
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3 “Good does not make it better” I disagree. Look on the show. When Elena had all that loss she still told Damon this was the most real and the most alive shes ever felt. This means like real life having the good stuff makes the bad easier to deal with. Bonnie never has that. Someone said she goes to see her dad during summer, well vampire diaries official timeline year 1+2 = 1 year , 3+4 = 2 years and so on she was there 1 summer it’s hardly the big epic loves and great on screen moments the others do have (no its not all sunshine but they have it)
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4 “Her friends love and respect her” REALLY? See response to sacrifice, also The same friends who in one moment : Stefan and damon debated on who got to kill bonnie’s mother. Damon sure it’s damon but I think it speaks volumes with Stefan. Stefan the guy who won’t hurt a human to drink (hell he seems guilty above bunny death lol) is like “Sure a bit of Bonnie suffering? Sign me up!”
That same moment her mother was killed to protect elena (so many die this way lol) Caroline stood by her. The rest? “She’ll never forgive for you this” means “She’ll forget it in like 1 or 2 episodes then date you” *bangs head on wall* then what happens when her “friends” finally do call her? Its to ask for a favour. Seriously put yourself in those shoes. Your friend is the reason your mother was killed then said friend calls you up like in a few days and says “Sorry your moms dead ….. can I borrow some money?” you’d be pissed!
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So to conclude this rant/ramblings Bonnie ALWAYS suffers, no one in the show really cares and she has no good to feel better. So bonnie exists to make us all say “awwwww”
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Post by beangelic1000 on Dec 19, 2014 11:49:21 GMT -5
3 times I wrote out a reply only to have my browser crash and keep nothing. ****ing typing it in word and copy and paste now lol (sorry if any part is too sarcastic or too black and white that’s just me lol) ----------------------- Now a few factors were brought up I’d like to address/say my part on. 1 “Bonnie makes the choices herself” – Most (not all) of the time that is correct. However pop quiz time board? What happens when other cast members try to sacrifice themselves like for example “Elena”? A ) the gang talk her out of it B ) Her ship of the week stops them C ) someone else does it so she can live D ) all of the above! If you answered D you win! Congradulations. Now double or nothing what happens when Bonnie does it? A ) her “friends” say “noooo” but let it happen anyway B ) Her ship tries to stop it but ultimately lets it happen anyway C ) No one notices as it’s Bonnie And that is the key problem with this. Every good guy on this show has tried it at least once. Every one has been stopped at least once. Bonnie’s is almost never stopped (in fact I can’t think of any where it was) ---------------------------- 2 “Everyone has lost someone” That is true! However is it really that simple? Let’s look at the main deaths they had Elena : Jenna – Lost her only to find she had found peace on the other side later on thus making her feel better. Jeremy and damon – Lost both (different times) only to have quick fix (turning off emotions or mind wipe) only to have them return less than a season later alive Stefan: Lexi – lost her only to have her pop up every season to be his friend. Eventually erased Damon – returned less than a season later Caroline : Her dad – His death helped her know despite him hating vampires he still loved his daughter for been her. Damon : Alaric – popped up later told him to get the girl (not in a singing lobster “kiss the girl” way though that’d be epic!) returned Matt : Vicki – this one was bad not going to sugar coat it. She died returned , returned making deal with with the devil (though arguably the fact we was willing to return by killing Elena made matt just get over her) Jeremy – Jenna – see elena Anne – Died but returned to date him as a ghost Tyler: His abusive dad he thought was a dick His mother who never saw anyway as he’s always going off on his own Bonnie : Her dad murdered for no good reason Her gran : Died , returned once to give help, returned again been tortured on ther side, returned again to get erased from existence! (the WORST imo loss) -------------------------------- 3 “Good does not make it better” I disagree. Look on the show. When Elena had all that loss she still told Damon this was the most real and the most alive shes ever felt. This means like real life having the good stuff makes the bad easier to deal with. Bonnie never has that. Someone said she goes to see her dad during summer, well vampire diaries official timeline year 1+2 = 1 year , 3+4 = 2 years and so on she was there 1 summer it’s hardly the big epic loves and great on screen moments the others do have (no its not all sunshine but they have it) ----------------- 4 “Her friends love and respect her” REALLY? See response to sacrifice, also The same friends who in one moment : Stefan and damon debated on who got to kill bonnie’s mother. Damon sure it’s damon but I think it speaks volumes with Stefan. Stefan the guy who won’t hurt a human to drink (hell he seems guilty above bunny death lol) is like “Sure a bit of Bonnie suffering? Sign me up!” That same moment her mother was killed to protect elena (so many die this way lol) Caroline stood by her. The rest? “She’ll never forgive for you this” means “She’ll forget it in like 1 or 2 episodes then date you” *bangs head on wall* then what happens when her “friends” finally do call her? Its to ask for a favour. Seriously put yourself in those shoes. Your friend is the reason your mother was killed then said friend calls you up like in a few days and says “Sorry your moms dead ….. can I borrow some money?” you’d be pissed! -------------------------------------------- So to conclude this rant/ramblings Bonnie ALWAYS suffers, no one in the show really cares and she has no good to feel better. So bonnie exists to make us all say “awwwww” You summed everything up nicely, and the bit about when they did call her after her mum died only to ask a favour of her, also brings to mind the real reason why Elena wanted to go to the AU with Damon, because she wanted to ask Bonnie's advice in regards to her relationship with Damon, so Elena's initial response was not Bonnie's plight, but connected to herself. and when she thought the real reason behind Damon wanting to rescue Bonnie was to play the hero just to get into her good books. Yes, she did sense the change in Damon which is what prompted her to say that to her Bonnie was her bestfriend but to him she was so much more, wasn't she? but in the end all it boiled down to for Elena was it had more to do with her. Which was lovely when Damon told her he was doing it for Bonnie not for her. So going through the episodes your observations are spot on, when it comes to any plan that could result in her losing her life, Bonnie is barely ever stopped or another person steps in so that they make the sacrifice and not Bonnie. Jeremy who is supposed to be her boyfriend is useless when it comes to coming up with a plan that would mean Bonnie doesn't have to put her life in danger, if this was Elena everyone woud have had a dozen different ways to prevent her from endangering her life. A very good ABC quiz, it pointed out the obvious......... |
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Post by missmystic on Dec 19, 2014 12:45:54 GMT -5
3 times I wrote out a reply only to have my browser crash and keep nothing. ****ing typing it in word and copy and paste now lol (sorry if any part is too sarcastic or too black and white that’s just me lol) ----------------------- Now a few factors were brought up I’d like to address/say my part on. 1 “Bonnie makes the choices herself” – Most (not all) of the time that is correct. However pop quiz time board? What happens when other cast members try to sacrifice themselves like for example “Elena”? A ) the gang talk her out of it B ) Her ship of the week stops them C ) someone else does it so she can live D ) all of the above! If you answered D you win! Congradulations. Now double or nothing what happens when Bonnie does it? A ) her “friends” say “noooo” but let it happen anyway B ) Her ship tries to stop it but ultimately lets it happen anyway C ) No one notices as it’s Bonnie And that is the key problem with this. Every good guy on this show has tried it at least once. Every one has been stopped at least once. Bonnie’s is almost never stopped (in fact I can’t think of any where it was) ---------------------------- 2 “Everyone has lost someone” That is true! However is it really that simple? Let’s look at the main deaths they had Elena : Jenna – Lost her only to find she had found peace on the other side later on thus making her feel better. Jeremy and damon – Lost both (different times) only to have quick fix (turning off emotions or mind wipe) only to have them return less than a season later alive Stefan: Lexi – lost her only to have her pop up every season to be his friend. Eventually erased Damon – returned less than a season later Caroline : Her dad – His death helped her know despite him hating vampires he still loved his daughter for been her. Damon : Alaric – popped up later told him to get the girl (not in a singing lobster “kiss the girl” way though that’d be epic!) returned Matt : Vicki – this one was bad not going to sugar coat it. She died returned , returned making deal with with the devil (though arguably the fact we was willing to return by killing Elena made matt just get over her) Jeremy – Jenna – see elena Anne – Died but returned to date him as a ghost Tyler: His abusive dad he thought was a dick His mother who never saw anyway as he’s always going off on his own Bonnie : Her dad murdered for no good reason Her gran : Died , returned once to give help, returned again been tortured on ther side, returned again to get erased from existence! (the WORST imo loss) -------------------------------- 3 “Good does not make it better” I disagree. Look on the show. When Elena had all that loss she still told Damon this was the most real and the most alive shes ever felt. This means like real life having the good stuff makes the bad easier to deal with. Bonnie never has that. Someone said she goes to see her dad during summer, well vampire diaries official timeline year 1+2 = 1 year , 3+4 = 2 years and so on she was there 1 summer it’s hardly the big epic loves and great on screen moments the others do have (no its not all sunshine but they have it) ----------------- 4 “Her friends love and respect her” REALLY? See response to sacrifice, also The same friends who in one moment : Stefan and damon debated on who got to kill bonnie’s mother. Damon sure it’s damon but I think it speaks volumes with Stefan. Stefan the guy who won’t hurt a human to drink (hell he seems guilty above bunny death lol) is like “Sure a bit of Bonnie suffering? Sign me up!” That same moment her mother was killed to protect elena (so many die this way lol) Caroline stood by her. The rest? “She’ll never forgive for you this” means “She’ll forget it in like 1 or 2 episodes then date you” *bangs head on wall* then what happens when her “friends” finally do call her? Its to ask for a favour. Seriously put yourself in those shoes. Your friend is the reason your mother was killed then said friend calls you up like in a few days and says “Sorry your moms dead ….. can I borrow some money?” you’d be pissed! -------------------------------------------- So to conclude this rant/ramblings Bonnie ALWAYS suffers, no one in the show really cares and she has no good to feel better. So bonnie exists to make us all say “awwwww” I disagree with just about all of this lol. This argument is getting tiring, but debates are interesting when done maturely and so I'm still going to participate lol. It's true that when Elena has tried to sacrifice herself people have stopped her, and when Bonnie has sacrificed herself it hasn't been stopped. But here's the part you are overlooking: Bonnie made it impossible for people to be ABLE to stop her, because she didn't let anyone know what was happening until it was already too late! What could they possibly do after the fact?? They all tried, a million times to stop her or save her, but by the time they knew what was happening there was nothing they could do! They DID NOT just "let it happen". You cannot honestly tell me that the other characters gave ever demonstrated a lack of concern for Bonnie. Elena had always tried to do everything she could think of to keep Bonnie out of danger. Just because it didn't work doesn't mean she doesn't care. When she thought Bonnie had died to save her from Klaus, she was completely destroyed! Every time something bad happened to Bonnie, Elena has shown grief and compassion and concern and love. Every singly time. She adores Bonnie. I can't imagine how anyone could think differently. And She isn't the only one by a long shot. Everyone misses her, everyone loves her, everyone wants to save her. They were all on board with rescuing her. There was no one saying, "it's not worth it, it's only Bonnie." I mean come on. People argued over HOW to rescue her, but not IF THEY SHOULD rescue her. And Damon was NOT the only one pushing for it. Elena was totally fighting right beside him. She let herself get set on fire trying to save the ascendant from destruction. The only reason she is not getting rescued is because they don't know what to do! And they tried everything they DID know, and it has failed so far. Everyone cares, everyone loves her. Even last season, they all worked together trying to figure out a way to get Bonnie back from the other side! That's how she became the anchor, BECAUSE people were fighting to save her. I just don't see any of what you are talking about in the show I am watching. I don't see anyone leaving Bonnie to fend for herself of their own free will. Whenever Bonnie has been stuck with a problem on her own it is because she chose not to let anyone help her. Not because no one WANTS to help her. And I have no idea what you are talking about when you say both Damon and Stefan were perfectly happy to "kill" Bonnie's mom. That isn't what happened at all. Neither one of them wanted to do it even remotely! Damon chose to do it to save Stefan from having to be the bad guy. It's not like they were sitting there fighting over who would GET to kill her, like it was a prize. And they didn't kill her anyways! I don't know why you keep saying she is dead. She's not dead. She is a vampire. There is clearly a difference between being dead and being a vampire. Otherwise you would have to say that everyone on the show is dead. Bonnie can still see her mom, hug her mom, talk to her mom. Her mom is not gone. And I don't see any difference between the examples of loss you gave either. They all seem pretty similar to me. They have all had people they love die, and most of them have been given a chance to see that person again one or 2 more times before they were gone for good. There is no difference to me between what Bonnie has been through on that front than what anyone else has been through. Aside from the fact that most of the other characters have actually lost more people than she has. So, yeah ... just basically I totally disagree. |
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Post by missmystic on Dec 19, 2014 12:53:05 GMT -5
We will agree to disagree, but when the question is asked.....the majority answer will be Bonnie. The whole point of a debate is to argue points on both sides. Otherwise it's not a debate. You can't agree to disagree, that's no fun! lol |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Dec 19, 2014 13:09:51 GMT -5
And they didn't kill her anyways! I don't know why you keep saying she is dead. She's not dead. She is a vampire. There is clearly a difference between being dead and being a vampire. Otherwise you would have to say that everyone on the show is dead. THEY ARE! Vampires are undead but the fact you have to DIE with vampire blood in your system means died. Vampires are dead. They are not dead dead but still dead. The living dead  so dead. Though I will say yes it was not a prize it just annoyed me that Stefan was at least willing to consider it. He always looks for another way or something but it felt off he didn't. I was been a little dramatic/sarcastic to make the point I admit I mean it's not like stefan wakes up and looks at calander "Ah its bonnie suffering day!" LOL but it was "off" or at least felt "mean spirited" I do agree this argument is getting tiring as I don't think either will change their mind it's good we can respect others think differently on it. It is still fun though as you said. I will say there is Anti-Elena people (Thats me, can you tell? lol) Ant-stefan people but everyone seems pro-bonnie or Pronnie if you will.....*goes to make 10000 Pronnie and Cenzo shirts lol* |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 13:11:03 GMT -5
3 times I wrote out a reply only to have my browser crash and keep nothing. ****ing typing it in word and copy and paste now lol (sorry if any part is too sarcastic or too black and white that’s just me lol) ----------------------- Now a few factors were brought up I’d like to address/say my part on. 1 “Bonnie makes the choices herself” – Most (not all) of the time that is correct. However pop quiz time board? What happens when other cast members try to sacrifice themselves like for example “Elena”? A ) the gang talk her out of it B ) Her ship of the week stops them C ) someone else does it so she can live D ) all of the above! If you answered D you win! Congradulations. Now double or nothing what happens when Bonnie does it? A ) her “friends” say “noooo” but let it happen anyway B ) Her ship tries to stop it but ultimately lets it happen anyway C ) No one notices as it’s Bonnie And that is the key problem with this. Every good guy on this show has tried it at least once. Every one has been stopped at least once. Bonnie’s is almost never stopped (in fact I can’t think of any where it was) ---------------------------- 2 “Everyone has lost someone” That is true! However is it really that simple? Let’s look at the main deaths they had Elena : Jenna – Lost her only to find she had found peace on the other side later on thus making her feel better. Jeremy and damon – Lost both (different times) only to have quick fix (turning off emotions or mind wipe) only to have them return less than a season later alive Stefan: Lexi – lost her only to have her pop up every season to be his friend. Eventually erased Damon – returned less than a season later Caroline : Her dad – His death helped her know despite him hating vampires he still loved his daughter for been her. Damon : Alaric – popped up later told him to get the girl (not in a singing lobster “kiss the girl” way though that’d be epic!) returned Matt : Vicki – this one was bad not going to sugar coat it. She died returned , returned making deal with with the devil (though arguably the fact we was willing to return by killing Elena made matt just get over her) Jeremy – Jenna – see elena Anne – Died but returned to date him as a ghost Tyler: His abusive dad he thought was a dick His mother who never saw anyway as he’s always going off on his own Bonnie : Her dad murdered for no good reason Her gran : Died , returned once to give help, returned again been tortured on ther side, returned again to get erased from existence! (the WORST imo loss) -------------------------------- 3 “Good does not make it better” I disagree. Look on the show. When Elena had all that loss she still told Damon this was the most real and the most alive shes ever felt. This means like real life having the good stuff makes the bad easier to deal with. Bonnie never has that. Someone said she goes to see her dad during summer, well vampire diaries official timeline year 1+2 = 1 year , 3+4 = 2 years and so on she was there 1 summer it’s hardly the big epic loves and great on screen moments the others do have (no its not all sunshine but they have it) ----------------- 4 “Her friends love and respect her” REALLY? See response to sacrifice, also The same friends who in one moment : Stefan and damon debated on who got to kill bonnie’s mother. Damon sure it’s damon but I think it speaks volumes with Stefan. Stefan the guy who won’t hurt a human to drink (hell he seems guilty above bunny death lol) is like “Sure a bit of Bonnie suffering? Sign me up!” That same moment her mother was killed to protect elena (so many die this way lol) Caroline stood by her. The rest? “She’ll never forgive for you this” means “She’ll forget it in like 1 or 2 episodes then date you” *bangs head on wall* then what happens when her “friends” finally do call her? Its to ask for a favour. Seriously put yourself in those shoes. Your friend is the reason your mother was killed then said friend calls you up like in a few days and says “Sorry your moms dead ….. can I borrow some money?” you’d be pissed! -------------------------------------------- So to conclude this rant/ramblings Bonnie ALWAYS suffers, no one in the show really cares and she has no good to feel better. So bonnie exists to make us all say “awwwww” The crashing just happened to me just now! So frustrating when you typed up quite a bit lol Anyways I'll summarize the gist of it. I'd like to start off by saying please refrain from doing the whole 'ABC' quiz format. I know it likely wasn't your intention but it comes off a bit sarcastic and insulting to one's intelligence for those who don't necessarily agree with your reasons (didn't pick the right 'letter'). This leads me to my second point, I'd like to see some examples, specific seasons/scenes described, it'll help to give a clearer picture of your claims so that we can in fact agree or state why we don't necessarily feel the same. In your first quiz you stated that whenever Elena tries to sacrifice herself, she's talked out of it. I can give you specific scenes where this hasn't always been the case. I love Elena but even I can admit she doesn't always have the most well thought out plans, she means well in the name of her friends, but she's incredibly stubborn. Damon's there to tell her that said plain is stupid of course, but she either one doesn't listen to him or go behind his back with someone else to carry out her plan which leads to Damon having to fix things. Again I'm prepared to back up my statements with specific scenes and episodes for evidence of this, nothing has been all unicorns and rainbows with everyone singing Elena's praises while she walks away scot free. As I stated I want things to be objective in this thread to understand other's viewpoints and not just throwing around 'shade' what have you at certain characters who one feels has it 'good'. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Dec 19, 2014 13:19:12 GMT -5
Sorry if the abc thing offended it was indeed meant as sarcastic but more friendly than insulting. I will try not to do that.
also I feel your crashing pain. lol
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so dead.
