Do some characters suffer more than others?

[missmystic]

Dec 19, 2014 13:09:51 GMT -5 chrizakathemole said:

Dec 19, 2014 12:45:54 GMT -5 missmystic said:

  And they didn't kill her anyways! I don't know why you keep saying she is dead. She's not dead. She is a vampire. There is clearly a difference between being dead and being a vampire. Otherwise you would have to say that everyone on the show is dead.

THEY ARE! Vampires are undead but the fact you have to DIE with vampire blood in your system means died. Vampires are dead. They are not dead dead but still dead. The living dead so dead.


Though I will say yes it was not a prize it just annoyed me that Stefan was at least willing to consider it. He always looks for another way or something but it felt off he didn't. I was been a little dramatic/sarcastic to make the point I admit I mean it's not like stefan wakes up and looks at calander "Ah its bonnie suffering day!" LOL but it was "off" or at least felt "mean spirited"

I do agree this argument is getting tiring as I don't think either will change their mind it's good we can respect others think differently on it. It is still fun though as you said. I will say there is Anti-Elena people (Thats me, can you tell? lol) Ant-stefan people but everyone seems pro-bonnie or Pronnie if you will.....*goes to make 10000 Pronnie and Cenzo shirts lol*

lol you crack me up :-)

If you wanna be all technical about it ( ), yes vampires are people who have died and become "undead". Their human lives are over. I understand that. But undead, by definition, is not dead. When speaking about the grief of losing a loved one, and saying they have died, for me that means they are gone from this world. You can no longer see them, hear them, touch them. They are gone. That is what "dead" means to me. Because vampires can die. So in my opinion Bonnie did not lose her mother the way most of the other characters have lost their parents. Her mother might be UNdead, but she is still in this world, existing and able to see and talk to and touch Bonnie. Bonnie did not lose her. Did it suck for her mom having to become a vampire and lose her magic? sure. But she gets to keep "living". She can go to the movies, she can have sex, she can eat pizza, she can have drinks with her daughter. She is alive in the way that matters most. She is there. So to me, that is not a loss. In fact I personally might feel better knowing that my loved ones were immortal and powerful, and therefore much safer than most normal people. SO ... that's my point about that

As for the Stefan thing, I agree that it wasn't his best moment for sure. In a lot of ways in fact. But put into context, if you recall this all happened right at the tail end of his "bad" phase, after he had flipped his switch and was hanging with Klaus. He hadn't quite made it back to his old "holier-than-thou" Stefan yet :-) So that might explain why he wasn't making the best choices. Not that he ever really makes awesome choices, but that's beside the point

[Doppelgänger]

Dec 19, 2014 12:45:54 GMT -5 missmystic said:

Dec 19, 2014 10:13:42 GMT -5 chrizakathemole said:

3 times I wrote out a reply only to have my browser crash and keep nothing. ****ing typing it in word and copy and paste now lol (sorry if any part is too sarcastic or too black and white that’s just me lol)

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Now a few factors were brought up I’d like to address/say my part on.

1 “Bonnie makes the choices herself” – Most (not all) of the time that is correct. However pop quiz time board? What happens when other cast members try to sacrifice themselves like for example “Elena”?
A ) the gang talk her out of it
B ) Her ship of the week stops them
C ) someone else does it so she can live
D ) all of the above!

If you answered D you win! Congradulations.

Now double or nothing what happens when Bonnie does it?
A ) her “friends” say “noooo” but let it happen anyway
B ) Her ship tries to stop it but ultimately lets it happen anyway
C ) No one notices as it’s Bonnie

And that is the key problem with this. Every good guy on this show has tried it at least once. Every one has been stopped at least once. Bonnie’s is almost never stopped (in fact I can’t think of any where it was)

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2 “Everyone has lost someone” That is true! However is it really that simple? Let’s look at the main deaths they had

Elena : Jenna – Lost her only to find she had found peace on the other side later on thus making her feel better.
Jeremy and damon – Lost both (different times) only to have quick fix (turning off emotions or mind wipe) only to have them return less than a season later alive

Stefan: Lexi – lost her only to have her pop up every season to be his friend. Eventually erased
Damon – returned less than a season later

Caroline : Her dad – His death helped her know despite him hating vampires he still loved his daughter for been her.

Damon : Alaric – popped up later told him to get the girl (not in a singing lobster “kiss the girl” way though that’d be epic!) returned
Matt : Vicki – this one was bad not going to sugar coat it. She died returned , returned making deal with with the devil (though arguably the fact we was willing to return by killing Elena made matt just get over her)

Jeremy – Jenna – see elena
Anne – Died but returned to date him as a ghost
Tyler: His abusive dad he thought was a dick
His mother who never saw anyway as he’s always going off on his own

Bonnie : Her dad murdered for no good reason
Her gran : Died , returned once to give help, returned again been tortured on ther side, returned again to get erased from existence! (the WORST imo loss)
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3 “Good does not make it better” I disagree. Look on the show. When Elena had all that loss she still told Damon this was the most real and the most alive shes ever felt. This means like real life having the good stuff makes the bad easier to deal with. Bonnie never has that. Someone said she goes to see her dad during summer, well vampire diaries official timeline year 1+2 = 1 year , 3+4 = 2 years and so on she was there 1 summer it’s hardly the big epic loves and great on screen moments the others do have (no its not all sunshine but they have it)

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4 “Her friends love and respect her” REALLY? See response to sacrifice, also The same friends who in one moment : Stefan and damon debated on who got to kill bonnie’s mother. Damon sure it’s damon but I think it speaks volumes with Stefan. Stefan the guy who won’t hurt a human to drink (hell he seems guilty above bunny death lol) is like “Sure a bit of Bonnie suffering? Sign me up!”

That same moment her mother was killed to protect elena (so many die this way lol) Caroline stood by her. The rest? “She’ll never forgive for you this” means “She’ll forget it in like 1 or 2 episodes then date you” *bangs head on wall* then what happens when her “friends” finally do call her? Its to ask for a favour. Seriously put yourself in those shoes. Your friend is the reason your mother was killed then said friend calls you up like in a few days and says “Sorry your moms dead ….. can I borrow some money?” you’d be pissed!
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So to conclude this rant/ramblings Bonnie ALWAYS suffers, no one in the show really cares and she has no good to feel better. So bonnie exists to make us all say “awwwww”

I disagree with just about all of this lol. This argument is getting tiring, but debates are interesting when done maturely and so I'm still going to participate lol.

It's true that when Elena has tried to sacrifice herself people have stopped her, and when Bonnie has sacrificed herself it hasn't been stopped. But here's the part you are overlooking: Bonnie made it impossible for people to be ABLE to stop her, because she didn't let anyone know what was happening until it was already too late! What could they possibly do after the fact?? They all tried, a million times to stop her or save her, but by the time they knew what was happening there was nothing they could do! They DID NOT just "let it happen". You cannot honestly tell me that the other characters gave ever demonstrated a lack of concern for Bonnie. Elena had always tried to do everything she could think of to keep Bonnie out of danger. Just because it didn't work doesn't mean she doesn't care. When she thought Bonnie had died to save her from Klaus, she was completely destroyed! Every time something bad happened to Bonnie, Elena has shown grief and compassion and concern and love. Every singly time. She adores Bonnie. I can't imagine how anyone could think differently. And She isn't the only one by a long shot. Everyone misses her, everyone loves her, everyone wants to save her. They were all on board with rescuing her. There was no one saying, "it's not worth it, it's only Bonnie." I mean come on. People argued over HOW to rescue her, but not IF THEY SHOULD rescue her. And Damon was NOT the only one pushing for it. Elena was totally fighting right beside him. She let herself get set on fire trying to save the ascendant from destruction. The only reason she is not getting rescued is because they don't know what to do! And they tried everything they DID know, and it has failed so far. Everyone cares, everyone loves her. Even last season, they all worked together trying to figure out a way to get Bonnie back from the other side! That's how she became the anchor, BECAUSE people were fighting to save her. I just don't see any of what you are talking about in the show I am watching. I don't see anyone leaving Bonnie to fend for herself of their own free will. Whenever Bonnie has been stuck with a problem on her own it is because she chose not to let anyone help her. Not because no one WANTS to help her.

And I have no idea what you are talking about when you say both Damon and Stefan were perfectly happy to "kill" Bonnie's mom. That isn't what happened at all. Neither one of them wanted to do it even remotely! Damon chose to do it to save Stefan from having to be the bad guy. It's not like they were sitting there fighting over who would GET to kill her, like it was a prize. And they didn't kill her anyways! I don't know why you keep saying she is dead. She's not dead. She is a vampire. There is clearly a difference between being dead and being a vampire. Otherwise you would have to say that everyone on the show is dead. Bonnie can still see her mom, hug her mom, talk to her mom. Her mom is not gone. And I don't see any difference between the examples of loss you gave either. They all seem pretty similar to me. They have all had people they love die, and most of them have been given a chance to see that person again one or 2 more times before they were gone for good. There is no difference to me between what Bonnie has been through on that front than what anyone else has been through. Aside from the fact that most of the other characters have actually lost more people than she has. So, yeah ... just basically I totally disagree.

Very good points.  Perhaps it is just perception on some people's parts that 'nobody cares about Bonnie' but it's the same kind of perception as "Damon is evil forever because he snapped Jeremy's neck.'  You can't ignore all the words of love and concern for Bonnie that have been demonstrated by the gang and just sweepingly say, "Nobody cares about Bonnie."  It's simply not true!  Only Damon has ever said he didn't really care about Bonnie and we know that's not true, right?  Sometimes you have to look at the overall picture.  Nothing is perfect for anyone in that world but I really don't think Bonnie's life is any worse than any of them.  Another point is that Bonnie has been the sole witch of the gang and when a spell was needed, it was on her to perform it.  That's changed a bit now but for a while there a lot of responsibility was on Bonnie.  She was also forced several times to perform spells along the way by Klaus etc. which put her in harm's way.  Also if I'm not mistaken Bonnie was supposed to die for real by Klaus but it was Damon who hatched the plan to fake her death to keep her alive.  So right there is one example where someone did something to save Bonnie and there's been lots of other times that she has been saved.  So I don't know where the idea that nobody cares and nobody tries to keep her alive comes from really.  Yes Damon said she was not his #1 priority, but she's a darn close second and if we're going to fault him for loving Elena and not Bonnie so he chooses her if it's between the two of them then I don't know what I can say about that.  Pretty much anyone would do the same in that situation.

[Doppelgänger]

Dec 19, 2014 13:09:51 GMT -5 chrizakathemole said:

Dec 19, 2014 12:45:54 GMT -5 missmystic said:

  And they didn't kill her anyways! I don't know why you keep saying she is dead. She's not dead. She is a vampire. There is clearly a difference between being dead and being a vampire. Otherwise you would have to say that everyone on the show is dead.

THEY ARE! Vampires are undead but the fact you have to DIE with vampire blood in your system means died. Vampires are dead. They are not dead dead but still dead. The living dead so dead.


Though I will say yes it was not a prize it just annoyed me that Stefan was at least willing to consider it. He always looks for another way or something but it felt off he didn't. I was been a little dramatic/sarcastic to make the point I admit I mean it's not like stefan wakes up and looks at calander "Ah its bonnie suffering day!" LOL but it was "off" or at least felt "mean spirited"

I do agree this argument is getting tiring as I don't think either will change their mind it's good we can respect others think differently on it. It is still fun though as you said. I will say there is Anti-Elena people (Thats me, can you tell? lol) Ant-stefan people but everyone seems pro-bonnie or Pronnie if you will.....*goes to make 10000 Pronnie and Cenzo shirts lol*

Are you sure? 

Oh and honestly I've never really liked Bonnie, so now you've met someone who doesn't.  I like her the best I have right now because she seems to have cooled a lot on the judgmental attitude.  She always came across to me as very judgy and black and white in her thinking and in general those are NOT my kind of people in life.  But I can appreciate her good qualities just the same and she does have those.  I just don't really care for her that much as a character!

[chrizakathemole]

Dec 19, 2014 17:25:02 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Dec 19, 2014 13:09:51 GMT -5 chrizakathemole said:

THEY ARE! Vampires are undead but the fact you have to DIE with vampire blood in your system means died. Vampires are dead. They are not dead dead but still dead. The living dead so dead.


Though I will say yes it was not a prize it just annoyed me that Stefan was at least willing to consider it. He always looks for another way or something but it felt off he didn't. I was been a little dramatic/sarcastic to make the point I admit I mean it's not like stefan wakes up and looks at calander "Ah its bonnie suffering day!" LOL but it was "off" or at least felt "mean spirited"

I do agree this argument is getting tiring as I don't think either will change their mind it's good we can respect others think differently on it. It is still fun though as you said. I will say there is Anti-Elena people (Thats me, can you tell? lol) Ant-stefan people but everyone seems pro-bonnie or Pronnie if you will.....*goes to make 10000 Pronnie and Cenzo shirts lol*

Are you sure? 

LOL about 63% sure

[Somerhaldered]

Dec 19, 2014 13:11:03 GMT -5 @anbuprincess said:

Dec 19, 2014 10:13:42 GMT -5 chrizakathemole said:

3 times I wrote out a reply only to have my browser crash and keep nothing. ****ing typing it in word and copy and paste now lol (sorry if any part is too sarcastic or too black and white that’s just me lol)

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The crashing just happened to me just now! So frustrating when you typed up quite a bit lol

Hey guys, there is a setting to "enable drafts" so that the forum saves your drafts for you. Maybe try turning that on and see if it helps. You have to "edit your profile" then click on the settings tab and enable drafts.




**edit** Sorry, looks like my screenshot isn't showing.

[Doppelgänger]

Dec 21, 2014 18:19:22 GMT -5 Somerhaldered said:

Dec 19, 2014 13:11:03 GMT -5 @anbuprincess said:

The crashing just happened to me just now! So frustrating when you typed up quite a bit lol

Hey guys, there is a setting to "enable drafts" so that the forum saves your drafts for you. Maybe try turning that on and see if it helps. You have to "edit your profile" then click on the settings tab and enable drafts.




**edit** Sorry, looks like my screenshot isn't showing.

Yup there is...

[Deleted]

Thanks for the heads up! Just enabled it!

[Somerhaldered]

So, not to dredge up old stuff, but I never got a chance to voice my opinion in this debate and now I'm bored, so... 

I'm going to err on the side of all of the characters get the short end of the stick at some point. Alaric died 4 or 5 times before he started to go crazy due to the Gilbert ring, then he became a serial killer. But that was before he was turned into a super vamp and killed for good - but not before he came back to life and died again and became a human. But, I'm sure we could rattle off something like that for everyone on the show. Whether they died multiple times or lost their parents in some form or fashion, I think everyone gets their fare share of crappiness. Elena has lost every single guardian (5) and she watched them ALL die.

I will admit, when the series first started, I liked Bonnie for 2 episodes - aaand that's it. Then I didn't like her for two seasons, I'm just now coming back around. She distanced herself from her friends the second she found out they were vampires (Care for example), then she decided to shut out Elena because she was friends with all of the other vampires. She pretty much convinced Jeremy to let her do what she wanted even though she wasn't strong enough to complete the spells on her own. When he tried to stop her, she kept going anyways. I think it is probably harder to stop someone from physically doing something than to stop someone who is doing something with their mind. She seems to always do what she wants anyways. 

I think the first few seasons were really heavy on everyone else and the last couple of seasons may seem tougher for Bonnie because her storylines have been heavily centered. One season revolved highly around her being the anchor and because every dead person passed through her, it seemed like she was put through a lot that season. Then she ended up in the AU this season and because the SL was heavily focused on if she and Damon were alive and able to be saved, it may seem like she is suffering there. Luckily for her now, Kai is out and although it is super lonely and depressing, I think I'd rather be alive and alone than afraid for my life with Kai, reliving the same day over again. 

The thing is, Bonnie is the only witch among the group and so she is the only one who can do the witchy-spells - and she's a Bennett witch at that. In S1 when Jeremy was trying to convince her to cool off the witchy stuff, she said "I wasn't given these powers to float feathers and light candles, I need to do something great". She chooses what she wants and she always wants to be in the middle of it all - her Grams even told her that the middle is where she needed to be. So as much as we may think Bonnie gets tortured, she really is a saving grace a lot of the times. 

Lastly, this show is ultimately doom and gloom not rainbows and butterflies. When your favorite character starts not getting any good SLs then it's time to start worrying about it. Unfortunately the center of attention on this show means pain and torture, lol. Bonnie wasn't the center of the story early on and the last couple of seasons she's gotten more prominent. That is a good thing for Bonnie fans.