|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Oct 3, 2015 21:13:51 GMT -5
FLASHBACKS TO 1863 — In the aftermath of a clever plan orchestrated by Lily (Annie Wersching), Damon (Ian Somerhalder) sets off on a road trip with Bonnie (Kat Graham) and Alaric (Matt Davis) in search of leverage they can use against his mother. Meanwhile, Caroline (Candice King), who is being held hostage by the Heretics, learns some shocking information about Valerie’s past, while Stefan (Paul Wesley) learns a few unexpected details about his own past from Lily. Finally, Alaric turns to Bonnie for her help after coming clean about a secret he’s been keeping. Michael Allowitz directed the episode written by Melinda Hsu Taylor & Holly Brix (#703). Original airdate 10/22/2015.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrizakathemole on Nov 17, 2015 11:38:04 GMT -5
Another awesome episode, Valerie Tulle's backstory is kind of interesting it's like part Katherine part rebekah , I like that and the character seems cool. We found out more about why damon stopped been in army, a reason that actually makes him a much nicer + cooler character than he was in the past. As he did the right thing but he also doesn't just tell everyone. Normally his right thing is selfish. That's cool  Bonnie / Alaric / Damon is just a great group together chemistry wise. Damon's "awww my besties" line was hilarious. Also Bonnie is been awesome and tough this season which is great she actually feels like the writers care about her again. Also poor caroline having vervain skin plus the fact stefan's ex is back. Like i said last season I wanted Enzo / Caroline BUT Stefan and Caroline are a very enjoyable and refreshing couple if you give them a try. Loving this year |
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 17, 2015 12:19:12 GMT -5
Another awesome episode, Valerie Tulle's backstory is kind of interesting it's like part Katherine part rebekah , I like that and the character seems cool. We found out more about why damon stopped been in army, a reason that actually makes him a much nicer + cooler character than he was in the past. As he did the right thing but he also doesn't just tell everyone. Normally his right thing is selfish. That's cool Bonnie / Alaric / Damon is just a great group together chemistry wise. Damon's "awww my besties" line was hilarious. Also Bonnie is been awesome and tough this season which is great she actually feels like the writers care about her again. Also poor caroline having vervain skin plus the fact stefan's ex is back. Like i said last season I wanted Enzo / Caroline BUT Stefan and Caroline are a very enjoyable and refreshing couple if you give them a try. Loving this year Well that's not really true about Damon if you look deeper at the things he has done that were the 'right' thing to do. It is usually the lesser of two evils sort of thing. He is not afraid to make the hard choices when others hesitate. I don't consider that a bad trait in him even if that choice will result in someone being hurt/upset etc. He will take the brunt of that on himself willingly. For instance when he had to decide between Bonnie and her Mother being killed and they had no time to find another answer and even though by the coin toss it was Stefan who was supposed to carry out the killing, he did it, but he also turned her so at least she still would live. He knew Stefan could not take the guilt on his shoulders. Sure you can look at it shallowly and just say, "Damon killed Bonnie's Mom." He's a horrible person!" But there is much more to it than that and his choice was the best one he could make for ALL involved, not just himself or Elena. The fact that he didn't shrink away from that horrible choice, that he must now live with (and we know he carries the guilt just like Stefan would have, as we were shown that Damon did carry the guilt when he killed the pregnant woman which was a huge reveal about Damon's psyche and unmistakably proved he feels guilt and remorse!) but the fact that he took that burden willingly off his brother because he considers himself already guilty of so many things that what is one more thing to feel guilty about? There's a whole psychology going on with Damon and a lot deeper stuff going on that we only occasionally catch a glimpse of. He is not evil but he thinks he is. But back to his reasons for leaving the war. In those simpler times Damon did do the right things. He was not burdened by the guilt of 170+ years of vampire killings. His choices in 1864 were much more clear and the 'right' choices, like stopping Stefan from his vampire ripper rampage when he first turned. But now things are not as clear for him due to all the guilt he already carries and right and wrong are not black and white anymore. He carries the weight of the guilty around with him and nothing can take that away and make any choices he makes 'right' anymore. It's all psychological, of course, but I personally find Damon to be the most honest of all of them and the most realistic as a vampire. He labels himself the 'bad' brother more than anyone else ever did and that is because he does have remorse and feels guilt for the things he has done. In truth they have all done a lot of bad things, especially Stefan, but Damon only sees his own guilt or maybe he sees it magnified and that makes him unable to be realistic about the fact that Stefan (the ripper) is just as guilty and just as 'bad.' He tries unsuccessfully to help Stefan avoid any other guilt and always reminds him that he (Damon) is the bad brother and doing bad things is his area of expertise, which is laughable really, but it's his way of trying to keep Stefan 'clean.' He'll take on the dirt and the guilt and the burden of the wrongdoing because he is already dirty and guilty and burdened from a thousand other things and that is Damon in a nutshell. However there is a lot of good in Damon as Elena knew it right from the beginning. He never fooled her for a minute and that is why she won his heart the way she did, although it took forever for him to allow himself the 'luxury' of letting her love him, because in his mind he doesn't deserve to be loved or treated kindly. That is too good for the likes of him. Elena was too good for him, he thought. It took a long time for him to actually let her love him and it was only his own self-hatred that stood in the way. |
|
|
|
Post by chrizakathemole on Nov 18, 2015 11:27:06 GMT -5
Oh I know but most of the time they only show him do good if HE gains something. Like to help the woman he loves stay alive. Which i'm not saying is a bad thing but it's selfish to at least a little degree. This was more about him just doing right. I don't know it felt different as the woman he loved, Brother , friend or someone didn't benefit
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 16:22:24 GMT -5
Oh I know but most of the time they only show him do good if HE gains something. Like to help the woman he loves stay alive. Which i'm not saying is a bad thing but it's selfish to at least a little degree. This was more about him just doing right. I don't know it felt different as the woman he loved, Brother , friend or someone didn't benefit As Doppel mentioned, this is looking at things in a black and white way especially if you're only going to hold Damon's character to this standard and no one else. As you said, of course loved ones is going to come before all else, every character on the show has done this. Caroline killed twelve witches without even blinking to keep her best friend Bonnie alive. Bonnie lied to Damon's face about keeping the Gilbert Device being deactivated, thus leading to a town of vampires in Mystic Falls getting killed (and Damon and Stefan almost got killed as well), and it also caused the domino effect of the device effecting Tyler in the car, crashing it with Caroline, landing her in the hospital so that she had to be healed by Damon's blood and ultimately gets turned into a vampire by Katherine.
Elena and Jeremy killed Kol, already knowing that with him dies a whole sire line of vampires dies with him. Stefan used a hybrid with the promise that after he helps them, he'll be free of Klaus, but Stefan ends up killing him in the end. At the end of the day, who's going to choose a random stranger's life over friends and loved ones? A recent example from this season has Caroline and Stefan manipulating Mary and Nora, keeping them occupied in a party and then leading them in a trap, threatening the life of a significant other until the spell on Caroline was broken. After that they end up kissing each other. I haven't seen anyone accusing Stefan and Caroline's actions of being manipulative or selfish. But had that been Damon in that position and Elena was Caroline, strangling Nora with her vervain skin until she broke the spell. Both Damon and Elena's character would have been called selfish and got a ton of hate. A lot of characters in this show has done selfish things, Damon's just the only one who's upfront and actually admits to mistakes he makes or characters only constantly talk about Damon doing this or that. When other characters are just as hypocritical in their actions but the writing never calls attention to it because everyone gets to be a white knight but for Damon he always has to be the 'bad brother'.
To clarify, this post is mainly focusing on the example you mentioned: 'Like to help the woman he loves stay alive.' so that's why I focused on that and listed other characters doing the same thing you're accusing Damon of being 'selfish' for. Being 'good' is also a subjective word. Damon going to any length to save the woman he loves is not about him being 'good', it's saving the woman he loves. No one ever accuses Damon of being selfish when it comes to going out of his way to save Bonnie. If it was about gaining something, and it was some form of manipulative tactic to be good only when it benefits him, then why would he just not act 'good' all the time? This season even has Bonnie being more in line with Damon's thinking and plans. She helped him kill Malcolm, was there when it came to using Oscar as leverage to get back Elena's coffin, and was all for his plan when it came to waiting a few months, and then ripping Julian away from Lily. On the other hand, this is a fantasy show so I'm not going to hold the characters to real life morals, so while I used the example about Caroline killing the twelve witches, no one's going to think, about what family the witches had or lives they led or that Caroline should have let Bonnie die over twelve lives. And she certainly wasn't called selfish for that action either. The main characters will always be more important than some random Joe on the street, and everyone will go to hell and back to keep their friends and loved ones alive and they don't care who they hurt. There's no character on this show that's 'completely good' everyone's done something to put them in the moral grey zone.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 18, 2015 19:26:08 GMT -5
Oh I know but most of the time they only show him do good if HE gains something. Like to help the woman he loves stay alive. Which i'm not saying is a bad thing but it's selfish to at least a little degree. This was more about him just doing right. I don't know it felt different as the woman he loved, Brother , friend or someone didn't benefit As Doppel mentioned, this is looking at things in a black and white way especially if you're only going to hold Damon's character to this standard and no one else. As you said, of course loved ones is going to come before all else, every character on the show has done this. Caroline killed twelve witches without even blinking to keep her best friend Bonnie alive. Bonnie lied to Damon's face about keeping the Gilbert Device being deactivated, thus leading to a town of vampires in Mystic Falls getting killed (and Damon and Stefan almost got killed as well), and it also caused the domino effect of the device effecting Tyler in the car, crashing it with Caroline, landing her in the hospital so that she had to be healed by Damon's blood and ultimately gets turned into a vampire by Katherine.
Elena and Jeremy killed Kol, already knowing that with him dies a whole sire line of vampires dies with him. Stefan used a hybrid with the promise that after he helps them, he'll be free of Klaus, but Stefan ends up killing him in the end. At the end of the day, who's going to choose a random stranger's life over friends and loved ones? A recent example from this season has Caroline and Stefan manipulating Mary and Nora, keeping them occupied in a party and then leading them in a trap, threatening the life of a significant other until the spell on Caroline was broken. After that they end up kissing each other. I haven't seen anyone accusing Stefan and Caroline's actions of being manipulative or selfish. But had that been Damon in that position and Elena was Caroline, strangling Nora with her vervain skin until she broke the spell. Both Damon and Elena's character would have been called selfish and got a ton of hate. A lot of characters in this show has done selfish things, Damon's just the only one who's upfront and actually admits to mistakes he makes or characters only constantly talk about Damon doing this or that. When other characters are just as hypocritical in their actions but the writing never calls attention to it because everyone gets to be a white knight but for Damon he always has to be the 'bad brother'.
To clarify, this post is mainly focusing on the example you mentioned: 'Like to help the woman he loves stay alive.' so that's why I focused on that and listed other characters doing the same thing you're accusing Damon of being 'selfish' for. Being 'good' is also a subjective word. Damon going to any length to save the woman he loves is not about him being 'good', it's saving the woman he loves. No one ever accuses Damon of being selfish when it comes to going out of his way to save Bonnie. If it was about gaining something, and it was some form of manipulative tactic to be good only when it benefits him, then why would he just not act 'good' all the time? This season even has Bonnie being more in line with Damon's thinking and plans. She helped him kill Malcolm, was there when it came to using Oscar as leverage to get back Elena's coffin, and was all for his plan when it came to waiting a few months, and then ripping Julian away from Lily. On the other hand, this is a fantasy show so I'm not going to hold the characters to real life morals, so while I used the example about Caroline killing the twelve witches, no one's going to think, about what family the witches had or lives they led or that Caroline should have let Bonnie die over twelve lives. And she certainly wasn't called selfish for that action either. The main characters will always be more important than some random Joe on the street, and everyone will go to hell and back to keep their friends and loved ones alive and they don't care who they hurt. There's no character on this show that's 'completely good' everyone's done something to put them in the moral grey zone.
Wow you really nailed it with all those examples. Good job! Yes, Damon is (for some unknown reason) held to a different standard on this show (and by some fans) and examined under a microscope for everything he does when the others aren't subjected to that kind of scrutiny, but as you pointed out, are guilty of similar acts, yet never condemned for them. Let's face it, though, this has been the case for the entire history of the show and was probably started by Stelena fans who felt very threatened by Damon's character affecting their couple and has since been repeated by a lot of other fans without really examining the fact that all the characters have been guilty of the same things at one point or another and if loving someone and wanting to keep them alive over a random is a 'bad' thing then they are all 'bad.' |
|
|
|
Post by missmystic on Nov 19, 2015 10:20:49 GMT -5
Oh I know but most of the time they only show him do good if HE gains something. Like to help the woman he loves stay alive. Which i'm not saying is a bad thing but it's selfish to at least a little degree. This was more about him just doing right. I don't know it felt different as the woman he loved, Brother , friend or someone didn't benefit As Doppel mentioned, this is looking at things in a black and white way especially if you're only going to hold Damon's character to this standard and no one else. As you said, of course loved ones is going to come before all else, every character on the show has done this. Caroline killed twelve witches without even blinking to keep her best friend Bonnie alive. Bonnie lied to Damon's face about keeping the Gilbert Device being deactivated, thus leading to a town of vampires in Mystic Falls getting killed (and Damon and Stefan almost got killed as well), and it also caused the domino effect of the device effecting Tyler in the car, crashing it with Caroline, landing her in the hospital so that she had to be healed by Damon's blood and ultimately gets turned into a vampire by Katherine.
Elena and Jeremy killed Kol, already knowing that with him dies a whole sire line of vampires dies with him. Stefan used a hybrid with the promise that after he helps them, he'll be free of Klaus, but Stefan ends up killing him in the end. At the end of the day, who's going to choose a random stranger's life over friends and loved ones? A recent example from this season has Caroline and Stefan manipulating Mary and Nora, keeping them occupied in a party and then leading them in a trap, threatening the life of a significant other until the spell on Caroline was broken. After that they end up kissing each other. I haven't seen anyone accusing Stefan and Caroline's actions of being manipulative or selfish. But had that been Damon in that position and Elena was Caroline, strangling Nora with her vervain skin until she broke the spell. Both Damon and Elena's character would have been called selfish and got a ton of hate. A lot of characters in this show has done selfish things, Damon's just the only one who's upfront and actually admits to mistakes he makes or characters only constantly talk about Damon doing this or that. When other characters are just as hypocritical in their actions but the writing never calls attention to it because everyone gets to be a white knight but for Damon he always has to be the 'bad brother'.
To clarify, this post is mainly focusing on the example you mentioned: 'Like to help the woman he loves stay alive.' so that's why I focused on that and listed other characters doing the same thing you're accusing Damon of being 'selfish' for. Being 'good' is also a subjective word. Damon going to any length to save the woman he loves is not about him being 'good', it's saving the woman he loves. No one ever accuses Damon of being selfish when it comes to going out of his way to save Bonnie. If it was about gaining something, and it was some form of manipulative tactic to be good only when it benefits him, then why would he just not act 'good' all the time? This season even has Bonnie being more in line with Damon's thinking and plans. She helped him kill Malcolm, was there when it came to using Oscar as leverage to get back Elena's coffin, and was all for his plan when it came to waiting a few months, and then ripping Julian away from Lily. On the other hand, this is a fantasy show so I'm not going to hold the characters to real life morals, so while I used the example about Caroline killing the twelve witches, no one's going to think, about what family the witches had or lives they led or that Caroline should have let Bonnie die over twelve lives. And she certainly wasn't called selfish for that action either. The main characters will always be more important than some random Joe on the street, and everyone will go to hell and back to keep their friends and loved ones alive and they don't care who they hurt. There's no character on this show that's 'completely good' everyone's done something to put them in the moral grey zone.
This is great! Wow, you said that so well. Its all so true. And Doppel too, you are exactly right about how so many people seem to just parrot things they've heard other people say, without ever really thinking about the truth of it. It's one of those things the show perpetuates too, and it drives me crazy. They have lines they like to repeat, to keep telling us "this is the way things are," and yet all the evidence points to the contrary!
Damon and everyone else always call him the "bad brother" and call Stefan the "hero." But the facts tell a totally different story! Who selfishly forced their brother to become a vampire so he wouldn't have to be alone? Stefan! Who murdered their family and everyone who "betrayed" them when he became a vampire? Stefan! Who became a sociopathic serial killer and murdered an entire village of people including women and children? Stefan! Who lied about his blood addiction issues and nearly got someone killed just because he didn't want Elena to leave him? Stefan! Who tortured Elena by threatening to kill her in the exact manner her parents died in just to get Klaus off his back? Stefan! Who let Damon take the blame for killing Bonnie's mom without ever letting anyone know that Damon did it for Stefan so that he could keep being known as the "good brother"? Stefan! Who outright (somehow) blatantly lied to put Elena down and basically call her a cheating wh*re in front of everyone by saying they broke up because she slept with Damon, even though HE actually broke up with her BEFORE that happened? STEFAN! Who lied to Elena and told her he could tell it was Katherine and not her when she was possessed in order to make himself look better? Stefan. This list is getting long ... lol. I could go on, but I'll stop there.
And then there's this list:
Who made sure Elena knew that Stefan had gone with Klaus to save Damon, so that she wouldn't lose faith in Stefan? Damon. Who has always been honest about his actions and choices even when he knows people will be upset with him for them? Damon. Who went up against Elijah to rescue Elena when she was kidnaped and never expected even a thank you for it? Damon. Who was willing to die from a werewolf bite as penance for his actions and keep it from Elena so she wouldn't feel obligated to forgive him? Damon. Who came up with the plan to save Bonnie from Klaus, letting Elena think she was dead and taking the blame for it in order to make sure Elena didn't really lose her? Damon. Who made sure Rose died in peace with a beautiful memory and never told anyone he did that? Damon. Who sacrificed his own happiness by listening to Lexi and staying away from Stefan so that Stefan would have an easier time getting off blood? Damon. Who DIED to save everyone on the other side from blinking out of existence?? DAMON!
Honestly, how many heroic things has Stefan actually done in this story? And how many has Damon done? And how many underhanded and manipulative things as Damon actually done? And how many has Stefan done? The truth is that what they are telling us and what they are showing us in this story are two different things for some reason. I don't know if it's on purpose or if it's just due to poor writing. But the fact is, of the two brothers, the facts show us that it is actually Damon who is the more selfless and the more heroic almost constantly. And Stefan is actually the opposite.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 14:54:34 GMT -5
As Doppel mentioned, this is looking at things in a black and white way especially if you're only going to hold Damon's character to this standard and no one else. As you said, of course loved ones is going to come before all else, every character on the show has done this. Caroline killed twelve witches without even blinking to keep her best friend Bonnie alive. Bonnie lied to Damon's face about keeping the Gilbert Device being deactivated, thus leading to a town of vampires in Mystic Falls getting killed (and Damon and Stefan almost got killed as well), and it also caused the domino effect of the device effecting Tyler in the car, crashing it with Caroline, landing her in the hospital so that she had to be healed by Damon's blood and ultimately gets turned into a vampire by Katherine.
Elena and Jeremy killed Kol, already knowing that with him dies a whole sire line of vampires dies with him. Stefan used a hybrid with the promise that after he helps them, he'll be free of Klaus, but Stefan ends up killing him in the end. At the end of the day, who's going to choose a random stranger's life over friends and loved ones? A recent example from this season has Caroline and Stefan manipulating Mary and Nora, keeping them occupied in a party and then leading them in a trap, threatening the life of a significant other until the spell on Caroline was broken. After that they end up kissing each other. I haven't seen anyone accusing Stefan and Caroline's actions of being manipulative or selfish. But had that been Damon in that position and Elena was Caroline, strangling Nora with her vervain skin until she broke the spell. Both Damon and Elena's character would have been called selfish and got a ton of hate. A lot of characters in this show has done selfish things, Damon's just the only one who's upfront and actually admits to mistakes he makes or characters only constantly talk about Damon doing this or that. When other characters are just as hypocritical in their actions but the writing never calls attention to it because everyone gets to be a white knight but for Damon he always has to be the 'bad brother'.
To clarify, this post is mainly focusing on the example you mentioned: 'Like to help the woman he loves stay alive.' so that's why I focused on that and listed other characters doing the same thing you're accusing Damon of being 'selfish' for. Being 'good' is also a subjective word. Damon going to any length to save the woman he loves is not about him being 'good', it's saving the woman he loves. No one ever accuses Damon of being selfish when it comes to going out of his way to save Bonnie. If it was about gaining something, and it was some form of manipulative tactic to be good only when it benefits him, then why would he just not act 'good' all the time? This season even has Bonnie being more in line with Damon's thinking and plans. She helped him kill Malcolm, was there when it came to using Oscar as leverage to get back Elena's coffin, and was all for his plan when it came to waiting a few months, and then ripping Julian away from Lily. On the other hand, this is a fantasy show so I'm not going to hold the characters to real life morals, so while I used the example about Caroline killing the twelve witches, no one's going to think, about what family the witches had or lives they led or that Caroline should have let Bonnie die over twelve lives. And she certainly wasn't called selfish for that action either. The main characters will always be more important than some random Joe on the street, and everyone will go to hell and back to keep their friends and loved ones alive and they don't care who they hurt. There's no character on this show that's 'completely good' everyone's done something to put them in the moral grey zone.
This is great! Wow, you said that so well. Its all so true. And Doppel too, you are exactly right about how so many people seem to just parrot things they've heard other people say, without ever really thinking about the truth of it. It's one of those things the show perpetuates too, and it drives me crazy. They have lines they like to repeat, to keep telling us "this is the way things are," and yet all the evidence points to the contrary!
Damon and everyone else always call him the "bad brother" and call Stefan the "hero." But the facts tell a totally different story! Who selfishly forced their brother to become a vampire so he wouldn't have to be alone? Stefan! Who murdered their family and everyone who "betrayed" them when he became a vampire? Stefan! Who became a sociopathic serial killer and murdered an entire village of people including women and children? Stefan! Who lied about his blood addiction issues and nearly got someone killed just because he didn't want Elena to leave him? Stefan! Who tortured Elena by threatening to kill her in the exact manner her parents died in just to get Klaus off his back? Stefan! Who let Damon take the blame for killing Bonnie's mom without ever letting anyone know that Damon did it for Stefan so that he could keep being known as the "good brother"? Stefan! Who outright (somehow) blatantly lied to put Elena down and basically call her a cheating wh*re in front of everyone by saying they broke up because she slept with Damon, even though HE actually broke up with her BEFORE that happened? STEFAN! Who lied to Elena and told her he could tell it was Katherine and not her when she was possessed in order to make himself look better? Stefan. This list is getting long ... lol. I could go on, but I'll stop there.
And then there's this list:
Who made sure Elena knew that Stefan had gone with Klaus to save Damon, so that she wouldn't lose faith in Stefan? Damon. Who has always been honest about his actions and choices even when he knows people will be upset with him for them? Damon. Who went up against Elijah to rescue Elena when she was kidnaped and never expected even a thank you for it? Damon. Who was willing to die from a werewolf bite as penance for his actions and keep it from Elena so she wouldn't feel obligated to forgive him? Damon. Who came up with the plan to save Bonnie from Klaus, letting Elena think she was dead and taking the blame for it in order to make sure Elena didn't really lose her? Damon. Who made sure Rose died in peace with a beautiful memory and never told anyone he did that? Damon. Who sacrificed his own happiness by listening to Lexi and staying away from Stefan so that Stefan would have an easier time getting off blood? Damon. Who DIED to save everyone on the other side from blinking out of existence?? DAMON!
Honestly, how many heroic things has Stefan actually done in this story? And how many has Damon done? And how many underhanded and manipulative things as Damon actually done? And how many has Stefan done? The truth is that what they are telling us and what they are showing us in this story are two different things for some reason. I don't know if it's on purpose or if it's just due to poor writing. But the fact is, of the two brothers, the facts show us that it is actually Damon who is the more selfless and the more heroic almost constantly. And Stefan is actually the opposite.
Reading through your list, it is honestly astounding the fact that the fandom wants to constantly call Damon the selfish and bad brother who doesn't care about anyone but Elena. And Stefan has done multiple things that are no where near heroic in behavior yet everyone puts on their blinders and ignore his actions. And regarding your last statement, it does make it seem like this is some form of clever writing, looking past point black statements of accusations and seeing otherwise in a characters actions. I think the TVD writers were once at that level during the early seasons. But certainly now as you said, the writing is just flat out poor.
When you have an executive producer who still wants to play the 'good' and 'bad' brother card, despite everything these characters have gone through, still want to talk about one brother wearing hero hair and one brother constantly being rock bottom. Then there's really no hoping for the writing to be anything but superficial. It even comes across in the show. All of the horrible things Stefan has done; like nearly driving Elena off a bridge, putting revenge before anything else, making up blatant lies to people's face (SE break up, telling compelled!Elena that he instantly told her about his vampirism, that he saw through Katlena right away etc.), murdering an entire village etc. he never gets called out for anything by characters on the show. Even when it's an obvious lie that he made up and the person he's talking to should know better but they're kept silent cause the writing is stupid. Like Elena sleeping with Damon for the reason SE broke up when HE was the one who instigated the break up: "I can't do this anymore Elena." There was even a scene in season 4 with Elena and the girls hanging out in the Salvatore house. And Caroline makes a dumb comment where she blatantly shrugs off Stefan's ripper problem. "Say what you want about ripper Stefan but at least he wasn't a man s***." How does this comparison even make sense? lol. Especially when everyone's problem with Damon was him resorting to violence and getting innocents hurt etc. Stefan can really do no wrong and the writing in this show is horribly unbalanced and aggravating.
We could all list put together this long list of everyone in this show being selfish or doing something less than heroic, but I know this post is getting a bit off topic from the thread and heading towards something that could be a contender for debates. Though I really get confused with the hivemind of the fandom only seeing Damon as the only one in the show who's this selfish bad guy while everyone else is white knights, and him doing anything remotely 'good' is somehow some ulterior motive.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrizakathemole on Nov 19, 2015 17:07:53 GMT -5
I know he's done more good i was not insulting his character at all. I was just saying normally he does something good they always have him explain it in a "I need you" or "I cant live without you" way. It's not bad at all it's just his character is still learning. It's just nice when they have do something like this that can not be explained away in the way they normally do.
I'm not painting him as "bad" or "good" just flawed in a great way. As I've said before his flaws are why I like him. It was just nice to see a good deed from him NOT relating to another character but because it was just right. At least that's how I feel.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 18:00:06 GMT -5
I know he's done more good i was not insulting his character at all. I was just saying normally he does something good they always have him explain it in a "I need you" or "I cant live without you" way. It's not bad at all it's just his character is still learning. It's just nice when they have do something like this that can not be explained away in the way they normally do. I'm not painting him as "bad" or "good" just flawed in a great way. As I've said before his flaws are why I like him. It was just nice to see a good deed from him NOT relating to another character but because it was just right. At least that's how I feel. While I get that you're not someone who completely hates Damon's character and you lean more towards liking the character, a few of us here have been doing the same song and dance for seasons when it comes to this debate. So when you just say things like Damon only doing good when it benefits him or whatever, and it's just a statement without clear examples from the show, it's hard to not take it as an attack on the character or someone who just doesn't completely understand the character and their actions and how their mind works. We're not just quoting you and going, 'LOL nuh uh, Damon isn't selfish!' and leaving it at that, we're actually giving you examples from the show and showing you examples of other characters who have done just as selfish things. So hopefully you're not thinking we're rabid fangirls or something lol, all of us here on this board are more than just casual watchers of the show, we write long posts and speculations on scenes, we analyze and look into the deeper meaning of things than just on the surface. We don't just take words at face value, because TVD has never been that type of show. Whether the quality is still of that caliber is anyone's guess as they take on this season without their heroine but we'll see.
Now on to the post, most of those statements you made, 'I need you' or 'I can't live without you'. Are you just talking about in regards to Elena again? Let's face it, when it comes to Elena, Damon's going to make the right choices to keep her alive, that's been his character from the beginning even before they were an official couple. He's not going to close his eyes and let her walk off into danger like Stefan did with Klaus. Yet if the reasons you listed above are what is used to 'explain' why he does good. Then what was his reason for jumping in front of Tyler, taking the werewolf bite for Caroline? Was it because Damon couldn't live without her? Why did he even bother with writing that speech at Liz's funeral? What was Damon's reason for taking it upon himself to turn Bonnie's mom, when it was supposed to be Stefan?
Why did Damon give Rose that peaceful dream before she died? What benefit would that have been to him? In fact that would have been a good point for Damon wouldn't it? Yet he didn't' tell Elena and when she wondered why he said it wasn't about her. I don't want this post to get super long, but I can name TONS of other moments in this show. I didn't even scratch the surface. Just listing the things that Damon has done for Caroline alone would be a super long post. Why would Damon even save or help ANYONE on this show except for Elena if you think it's only about doing good when it benefits him. How many times has Damon saved people on this show and gotten NOTHING in return. A lot of his actions don't even get acknowledged. So it's not about doing good when it benefits him, he's obviously a different character now than he was in season 1, at one point he didn't care about any of these other characters (that includes Elena. He didn't start out being in love with her) but now he's grown to care for them, even referring to them as a family. This is not a character who's going to use and manipulate people he cares about for his own benefit, so I do consider that an insult to Damon's character. As you said, Damon's flawed, but that's not one of them.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 19, 2015 19:33:59 GMT -5
I know he's done more good i was not insulting his character at all. I was just saying normally he does something good they always have him explain it in a "I need you" or "I cant live without you" way. It's not bad at all it's just his character is still learning. It's just nice when they have do something like this that can not be explained away in the way they normally do. I'm not painting him as "bad" or "good" just flawed in a great way. As I've said before his flaws are why I like him. It was just nice to see a good deed from him NOT relating to another character but because it was just right. At least that's how I feel. You stepped in it didn't you? LOL I hope you don't think we are attacking you, just giving examples of many MANY times when Damon has done good things that didn't benefit him and in fact put himself at risk. As Anbu pointed out, it didn't take long before Damon started to care about the people of Mystic Falls and slowly changed from the villain type of character to an anti-hero. In fact it was in the last episode of season one where he thought he was talking to Elena (but it was Katherine) that he revealed that he found himself wanting to save the town and Katherine gave a very tell tale answer to him when he said, "I'm not a hero, Elena. I don't do good. It's not in me," and she replied, "Maybe it is." That was our cue as the audience that Damon was changing and he has done so ever since. But for some reason some people seem perpetually stuck in the past with Damon as a villain as if he has never changed at all. So it's not really you or your statement but the overall element of the fandom that refuse to actually pay attention to the story that is being told and not keep repeating stuff from season 1 as they continue to hate Damon really for no good reason any more. |
|
|
|
Post by missmystic on Nov 20, 2015 10:26:19 GMT -5
I know he's done more good i was not insulting his character at all. I was just saying normally he does something good they always have him explain it in a "I need you" or "I cant live without you" way. It's not bad at all it's just his character is still learning. It's just nice when they have do something like this that can not be explained away in the way they normally do. I'm not painting him as "bad" or "good" just flawed in a great way. As I've said before his flaws are why I like him. It was just nice to see a good deed from him NOT relating to another character but because it was just right. At least that's how I feel.
Haha, as Doppel said, you have poked the hornets nest! lol.
See the problem is that you happened to touch upon a long standing sore subject for people here like myself and AnBu and Doppel and many others here. We have all discussed this issue before, and it has been something of a heated subject for a long time. As AnBU said, many of us here really dig deep into analyzing the characters and their actions and statements and subtleties, obviously especially when it comes to characters we really enjoy. I think it's safe to say that most people here would call Damon their favorite character on TVD, and there's a reason for that. And the reason is not that we all just think its funny when he acts like a d*ick or when he says bluntly out loud what most of us are thinking. Our admiration for the character is in fact evidence of the points we have been hammering here. Do you really think any of us would be so enthralled by a character who only ever acted for selfish reasons? Who was only what he appeared to be on the surface? What is interesting about that?
The reason Damon is so beloved is because of all his depth. It's because of how, right from the very beginning, he put himself forth as a selfish villain but constantly acted to the contrary. He said he didn't care, but then when no one but the audience was looking he would let his guard down and prove that he did care. And yes, in the very beginning these glimmers of soul were only shown to us in regards to Elena. But that was only the beginning! I'm not going to reiterate all of the examples that I already gave of selfless acts that Damon has done, I'm just going to remind you that the list is up there lol. And that it's not nearly a complete list. Is it interesting and nice to know that Damon was against slavery? Yes obviously, we're all with you there for sure! But it is hardly the first example of unselfish sentiment from him. It's just the first time we've seen him, or in fact ANY of the characters, express any thoughts about political or social issues. This hasn't ever been that kind of show, and they've never brought anything like that up before. I mean has Stefan ever mentioned being against the war specifically? He didn't join, but they never went into the details of why. Have any of the other characters ever said anything about gay rights, or racist issues, or economic crisis', or political concerns of any kind? Clearly not.
This was the first time anything like that has been brought up. So what have any of the other characters done that could be called unselfish sentiment towards a general concept? Can you tell me any instance where anyone said or did anything like that before this? And in fact, what unselfish acts have any of the characters really done besides Bonnie and Elena and Damon? I think we can all fairly say that Bonnie has made a lot of hard sacrifices that were obviously unselfish. But IMO, I would say Elena was second in that, and Damon third. What have any of the other characters done that was totally unselfish or for the sake of everyone and not themselves or someone they loved? I'm pretty sure that never happened on this show lol. Every good thing someone does on this show has always been for someone they loved. And honestly, as far as I can remember, Damon has more of those selfless acts in his storyline than most of the others. Can anyone give me a list of all the unselfish sacrifices Stefan has made? Or Caroline? Or Tyler? Or Alaric even?
So yeah ... we feel passionately about this lol. I hope you know that its because we care about the subject matter, and not because we want to tear you down. Like I said, you just hit a nerve for all of us is all :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 20, 2015 10:40:29 GMT -5
I know he's done more good i was not insulting his character at all. I was just saying normally he does something good they always have him explain it in a "I need you" or "I cant live without you" way. It's not bad at all it's just his character is still learning. It's just nice when they have do something like this that can not be explained away in the way they normally do. I'm not painting him as "bad" or "good" just flawed in a great way. As I've said before his flaws are why I like him. It was just nice to see a good deed from him NOT relating to another character but because it was just right. At least that's how I feel.
Haha, as Doppel said, you have poked the hornets nest! lol.
See the problem is that you happened to touch upon a long standing sore subject for people here like myself and AnBu and Doppel and many others here. We have all discussed this issue before, and it has been something of a heated subject for a long time. As AnBU said, many of us here really dig deep into analyzing the characters and their actions and statements and subtleties, obviously especially when it comes to characters we really enjoy. I think it's safe to say that most people here would call Damon their favorite character on TVD, and there's a reason for that. And the reason is not that we all just think its funny when he acts like a d*ick or when he says bluntly out loud what most of us are thinking. Our admiration for the character is in fact evidence of the points we have been hammering here. Do you really think any of us would be so enthralled by a character who only ever acted for selfish reasons? Who was only what he appeared to be on the surface? What is interesting about that?
The reason Damon is so beloved is because of all his depth. It's because of how, right from the very beginning, he put himself forth as a selfish villain but constantly acted to the contrary. He said he didn't care, but then when no one but the audience was looking he would let his guard down and prove that he did care. And yes, in the very beginning these glimmers of soul were only shown to us in regards to Elena. But that was only the beginning! I'm not going to reiterate all of the examples that I already gave of selfless acts that Damon has done, I'm just going to remind you that the list is up there lol. And that it's not nearly a complete list. Is it interesting and nice to know that Damon was against slavery? Yes obviously, we're all with you there for sure! But it is hardly the first example of unselfish sentiment from him. It's just the first time we've seen him, or in fact ANY of the characters, express any thoughts about political or social issues. This hasn't ever been that kind of show, and they've never brought anything like that up before. I mean has Stefan ever mentioned being against the war specifically? He didn't join, but they never went into the details of why. Have any of the other characters ever said anything about gay rights, or racist issues, or economic crisis', or political concerns of any kind? Clearly not.
This was the first time anything like that has been brought up. So what have any of the other characters done that could be called unselfish sentiment towards a general concept? Can you tell me any instance where anyone said or did anything like that before this? And in fact, what unselfish acts have any of the characters really done besides Bonnie and Elena and Damon? I think we can all fairly say that Bonnie has made a lot of hard sacrifices that were obviously unselfish. But IMO, I would say Elena was second in that, and Damon third. What have any of the other characters done that was totally unselfish or for the sake of everyone and not themselves or someone they loved? I'm pretty sure that never happened on this show lol. Every good thing someone does on this show has always been for someone they loved. And honestly, as far as I can remember, Damon has more of those selfless acts in his storyline than most of the others. Can anyone give me a list of all the unselfish sacrifices Stefan has made? Or Caroline? Or Tyler? Or Alaric even?
So yeah ... we feel passionately about this lol. I hope you know that its because we care about the subject matter, and not because we want to tear you down. Like I said, you just hit a nerve for all of us is all :-)
You make a very good point about the other characters! I don't understand how fans can consider someone like Stefan doing something for someone else as selfless but when Damon does something for someone else, like rescuing Caroline and taking a wolf bite to protect her, NOT selfless. They say, "Oh he just did it for Elena." (To get in her good graces is the theory) How convenient! Well when Stefan gave himself over to Klaus, "He just did it for Damon." There ya go! How is it different? Because it's Damon? He shouldn't have to live by a different standard! I think there are reasons that he has been put in that position by the writers but we as the audience are supposed to see through that dynamic that he lives under to the real truth. I won't mention it here since some people haven't watched it yet but this last episode put even more clarity on that truth. |
|
|
|
Post by chrizakathemole on Nov 20, 2015 13:20:43 GMT -5
Now on to the post, most of those statements you made, 'I need you' or 'I can't live without you'. Are you just talking about in regards to Elena again?
No I'm talking about ALL characters. He saved Stefan's life and almost (and also sort of did) lost his life. BUT the same season we are told in the yearly Lexi episode "Did You ever think I just needed my brother" He travled to save Bonnie and told her he owed her amd was his friend he couldnt live with her been trapped. The fact is most of the time Damon's deeds are written off as been because HE can't live if Alaric/Bonnie/Elena/Katherine/Stefan are dead or He wants to impress Alaric/Bonnie/Elena/Katherine/Stefan. Do I think he is pure evil? NO. Do I think he's still season 1 Damon? NO. However what they tell us is different. To use a weird parallel think Wrestling. There is a term "kayfabe" To quote wiki "It is the portrayal of staged events within the industry as "real" or "true," specifically the portrayal of competition, rivalries, and relationships between participants as being genuine and not of a staged or pre-determined nature." You see in wrestling if a Heel (badguy) hits a Face (goodguy) with weapon the commentators tell that in doing so he is despicable or evil or ruthless ect… it is clear we are supposed to see them in that light. In reverse if a face uses a weapon on a heel the commentators tell us it's just an equalizer or justified. It's not just wrestling the same happens in other mediums too. Take comicbooks. Superman has killed many times over the years yet he is hero. Poison Ivy wants to save the environment but kills , she is a villain. We know this because they tell us. Damon is one of my favourite characters however in kayfabe or in universe we are always been told by him and 90% of the cast that he is selfish , untrustworthy , dark ect… Now we have a choice, we can either A) say that hew is supposed to be selfish and accept it the way he is portrayed or B) say “but stefan did it and he's a hero” in which so you are using real life logic and by doing so the show can't exist as vampires are not real. So yeah most of Damon's actions in world are selfish and Stefan's are evil. BUT it works both ways. Stefan is the character with a hobby (his classic cars) that's cool as hell! or writing diaries or even dancing ballroom. But we are told he is boring and Damon is cool and interesting because he popped on a leather jacket and drank lol Like Damon has no hobbies I can think of. However I will say Stefan is the dull one as that is what the universe tells me. Most of the uses of Damon over the years has been to do things for others like Alaric/Bonnie/Elena/Katherine/Stefan. Or himself. My point was by saying no to the war and defending slavery by been on the south team and by telling NO ONE it is something not for his own gain or for Alaric/Bonnie/Elena/Katherine/Stefan. It's just a personal deep sense of morale. THAT was all I was addressing. The fact it was something that can't be taken wrong, Bragged about in a “I'm a dick” way he loves to do or anything else it's just right and cool. I get people have “sides” and feel the need to defend them, but I just found it shocking and cool that it was something not to do with the main cast he just did it because it was cool. In the first 3 episodes of this year I was also happy to see tyler in a suit in a random cutaway for similar reasons of every time tyler goes to do something off screen it results in him wondering alone in the woods lol now he's in a suit and car I want to know why  To address the others I do not think anyone was “attacking” me, If I had I'd have ben way more insulting and sarcastic in reply lol I just think people misunderstood my point or where I was coming from. It was not from a “insult damon” place or insult Delena or Bammon or any other ship. It was just coming from a nice place that gave respect to a cool character moment or trait that is flat out “good” not more of a grey area like normal |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2015 14:10:50 GMT -5
Now on to the post, most of those statements you made, 'I need you' or 'I can't live without you'. Are you just talking about in regards to Elena again?
No I'm talking about ALL characters. He saved Stefan's life and almost (and also sort of did) lost his life. BUT the same season we are told in the yearly Lexi episode "Did You ever think I just needed my brother" He travled to save Bonnie and told her he owed her amd was his friend he couldnt live with her been trapped. The fact is most of the time Damon's deeds are written off as been because HE can't live if Alaric/Bonnie/Elena/Katherine/Stefan are dead or He wants to impress Alaric/Bonnie/Elena/Katherine/Stefan. Do I think he is pure evil? NO. Do I think he's still season 1 Damon? NO. However what they tell us is different. To use a weird parallel think Wrestling. There is a term "kayfabe" To quote wiki "It is the portrayal of staged events within the industry as "real" or "true," specifically the portrayal of competition, rivalries, and relationships between participants as being genuine and not of a staged or pre-determined nature." You see in wrestling if a Heel (badguy) hits a Face (goodguy) with weapon the commentators tell that in doing so he is despicable or evil or ruthless ect… it is clear we are supposed to see them in that light. In reverse if a face uses a weapon on a heel the commentators tell us it's just an equalizer or justified. It's not just wrestling the same happens in other mediums too. Take comicbooks. Superman has killed many times over the years yet he is hero. Poison Ivy wants to save the environment but kills , she is a villain. We know this because they tell us. Damon is one of my favourite characters however in kayfabe or in universe we are always been told by him and 90% of the cast that he is selfish , untrustworthy , dark ect… Now we have a choice, we can either A) say that hew is supposed to be selfish and accept it the way he is portrayed or B) say “but stefan did it and he's a hero” in which so you are using real life logic and by doing so the show can't exist as vampires are not real. So yeah most of Damon's actions in world are selfish and Stefan's are evil. BUT it works both ways. Stefan is the character with a hobby (his classic cars) that's cool as hell! or writing diaries or even dancing ballroom. But we are told he is boring and Damon is cool and interesting because he popped on a leather jacket and drank lol Like Damon has no hobbies I can think of. However I will say Stefan is the dull one as that is what the universe tells me. Most of the uses of Damon over the years has been to do things for others like Alaric/Bonnie/Elena/Katherine/Stefan. Or himself. My point was by saying no to the war and defending slavery by been on the south team and by telling NO ONE it is something not for his own gain or for Alaric/Bonnie/Elena/Katherine/Stefan. It's just a personal deep sense of morale. THAT was all I was addressing. The fact it was something that can't be taken wrong, Bragged about in a “I'm a dick” way he loves to do or anything else it's just right and cool. I get people have “sides” and feel the need to defend them, but I just found it shocking and cool that it was something not to do with the main cast he just did it because it was cool. In the first 3 episodes of this year I was also happy to see tyler in a suit in a random cutaway for similar reasons of every time tyler goes to do something off screen it results in him wondering alone in the woods lol now he's in a suit and car I want to know why To address the others I do not think anyone was “attacking” me, If I had I'd have ben way more insulting and sarcastic in reply lol I just think people misunderstood my point or where I was coming from. It was not from a “insult damon” place or insult Delena or Bammon or any other ship. It was just coming from a nice place that gave respect to a cool character moment or trait that is flat out “good” not more of a grey area like normal Now that you've gone a bit more into detail, I get the point you were trying to get across now. Though I think MissMystic covered this better in her reply. Damon's stance on the war and slavery is really the only time in this show that I can ever remember a political issue or social issue. I mean they only ever mention Obama once and that's an offhand remark by Bonnie in the first episode season 1. No characters talk about things like race or gay rights. Even now with Mary and Nora, being the first gay couple on the show, no one in the cast is reacting to them, no one is antagonizing them, acting like they shouldn't be together etc. It's not even about them being 'for' gay rights, it's the fact that they don't have any stance/opinion on the matter in general. As stated, this isn't the type of show for those kind of issues.
Because of this, it's not really a good indicator for Damon's character verses how everyone else is because there's no other characters to compare it to. It's not as if Stefan is an advocator for gay rights, having to settle disputes through the gang about how they should treat Mary and Nora as any other couple, Bonnie is the spokesperson for racism and we see her out and about; interacting with black people and talking about issues about feeling used as a POC, and Caroline leads a feminist group; talking with women in her college about being independent etc. and everyone BUT DAMON is making choices that is about morality in general and not based on a character. All this does is give us a bit more insight to Damon's psyche, this wasn't supposed to be the big moment where suddenly we're all, 'Wow Damon really isn't selfish!'. The scene wasn't that big of a deal. As MissMystic stated, I'm not going to rewrite a full list of examples. Caroline's the sweetheart of the show yet she made a choice to kill 12 witches because of a CHARACTER, her best friend Bonnie. So you can't fault Damon for his choices being based on 'I need yous' but ignore other characters who have pretty much done the same thing throughout this show.
As fans of Damon, we don't treat him like some saint, we know about his flaws and we don't excuse him and we also like that Damon's character has never been afraid to own up to these flaws/mistakes that he's made. On the flipside it gets a bit frustrating when we have people who are quick to point out Damon as the 'bad guy/brother' or whatever all the time but completely ignore when a favorite character of theirs has made a mistake or done something horrible or act like Damon's never ever done anything selfless on this show ever and it's always been some 'catch'. Stefan is Damon's brother, Elena's the love of his life and Bonnie and Alaric are his friends. What's to be expected when Damon saves these people? What other reason or statement of declaration is he expected to make when he goes out of his way to save them? These are the people Damon cares about. And he's made it clear that he has a very small list. So yes while it was a nice insight into Damon's mind regarding the stances on war and slavery, this isn't Scandal so I'm not expecting all these political and social issues to be highlighted or brought to the forefront. All I know is TVD is a show about vampires and people are always trying to kill each other and get revenge and then needing to get saved by someone else and every choice they make regarding who lives or who dies is always going to be in regards to another character on this show whether that is someone's brother, best friend, or love interest.
|
|
