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Post by Slash on Jan 14, 2012 13:30:44 GMT -5
I could name any number of situations, but how about Andie and Stefan killing her. All I saw was excuses from Stelena fans as to why he did that and never once anyone cared that she was still dead. I did not and did not see many make excuses I just didn't care that she died. I mean Damon liked her and all, but he was abusing her. I mean who even knows what her true feelings were about Damon and the situation she was in because Damon was compelling her and feeding on her. Yes, Stefan killed her and it was wrong, but what Damon was doing was only slightly better, even if he cared about her. You can call the an excuse all you want, but to me it is just the truth. Caring that she died or not is irrelevant. If it wasn't, who the hell are all the people who ripped Damon a new one for killing 'Jessica', the innocent girl who decided to be a good person and stop to see if this guy laying in the road needed help. I'm sure all those people didn't 'care' about Jessica and hell, we didn't even know who she was cause of the 2 minutes she had on screen but that death was used as more gasoline for the Damon bonfire people have been throwing in the past. The fact that she [Andie] died the way she did for the reasons she did is the issue here. As for Damon abusing her, early on, yes. Then he let her go after she said she really did feel for him (compulsion or not is up for debate). Come S3, the 2 are back together, more than likely for Damon to keep himself preoccupied but he did seem to have developed an appreciation of her and from what little we saw in S3, he wasn't compelling her. We don't know how the 2 met back up (Damon needing to keep some distance with Elena and needing Andie's help) but they did. I don't think Damon was using/abusing her at that point if her death was any indication. What Stefan did to her was simply for kicks. In fact, what he did to her was undone just a few hours later when he went and made that damn phone call to Elena. He had just killed Andie to send a message for Damon & Co. to stay away and then he makes Andie's death pointless by picking up the phone for a mute, sob moment. |
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 14, 2012 13:32:49 GMT -5
Wow, way to deflect the issue onto someone else. He killed her and he made her suffer at the end knowing she was going to die and for no other reason than to get his jollies by killing her because her death didn't do a thing to further Stefan/Klaus' agenda. You can say Damon didn't treat her well, but who was the one who cared when she was dead? So...I made my point. SE fans are able to excuse anything and everything he does with excuses like this. Take Damon out of the equation and what do you have? Stefan killing her and how can that really be excused if you want to stick with the 'Stefan is this great guy' thing some of you have going on? I didn't excuse it. I just said that I did not care that she died because I did not care about the character. I mean I see why other did and why they were upset with Stefan and that he could have made another choice, but I just didn't feel that much about it because I didn't feel for her. If that makes sense. Plus let's be honest with why Stefan was in Mystic Falls in the first place. You can;t just want people to hate Stefan and think what he did was pure evil when the show made it clear it was not. Like I said could have gone about what needed to be done differently. I admit it, but there was method to the madness. He did not haphazadrly kill Andie and then regret is seconds later because it didn't need to be done (like Damon did with Jeremy) I don't know I am not making excuses I just seethe situations being very different. I get this but at the same time when Damon ate Jessica a no named girl who was an extra he got hit HARD! He was condemned and then some! But Stefan kills Andie and lets be honest people were up in arms about Damon and Andie's relationship yet not up in arms when Stefan ended it. It's like Damon gets yelled at for killing and extra and having a relationship that ended up him caring more than he wanted to for Andie but Stefan kills her and it's ok. I just don't know when or what Stefan will do to make people go WOW what he did was horrible and wrong and shouldn't have done that instead of making excuses for why he did it! Damon killing the extra Jessica was wrong I admit it and wished he never but I understand his reasoning. You can understand why Stefan does what he does but at the same time think it's wrong and I haven't seen many SE's or Stefan fans even admitting that he is dead wrong here. But thanks for making this convo an easy one. I never feel as if we are arguing!   |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2012 13:49:42 GMT -5
I didn't excuse it. I just said that I did not care that she died because I did not care about the character. I mean I see why other did and why they were upset with Stefan and that he could have made another choice, but I just didn't feel that much about it because I didn't feel for her. If that makes sense. Plus let's be honest with why Stefan was in Mystic Falls in the first place. You can;t just want people to hate Stefan and think what he did was pure evil when the show made it clear it was not. Like I said could have gone about what needed to be done differently. I admit it, but there was method to the madness. He did not haphazadrly kill Andie and then regret is seconds later because it didn't need to be done (like Damon did with Jeremy) I don't know I am not making excuses I just seethe situations being very different. I get this but at the same time when Damon ate Jessica a no named girl who was an extra he got hit HARD! He was condemned and then some! But Stefan kills Andie and lets be honest people were up in arms about Damon and Andie's relationship yet not up in arms when Stefan ended it. It's like Damon gets yelled at for killing and extra and having a relationship that ended up him caring more than he wanted to for Andie but Stefan kills her and it's ok. I just don't know when or what Stefan will do to make people go WOW what he did was horrible and wrong and shouldn't have done that instead of making excuses for why he did it! Damon killing the extra Jessica was wrong I admit it and wished he never but I understand his reasoning. You can understand why Stefan does what he does but at the same time think it's wrong and I haven't seen many SE's or Stefan fans even admitting that he is dead wrong here. But thanks for making this convo an easy one. I never feel as if we are arguing! Me either! Yeah, I get what you guys are saying about some Stefan fans, but it comes from all fans imo. Fans of Damon, Fans of Elena, and Fans of Bonnie and the list goes on all have fans that won't acknowledge the wrong their characters do EVEn when the characters admit it. tbh though  I didn't care that much about Jessica. I thought the writers were going to have him spare her, but when he killed her I was not mad at him for it, but sad that he went a step backwards. I think Ian did a really good job with that scene. |
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Post by Slash on Jan 14, 2012 13:59:13 GMT -5
Me either! Yeah, I get what you guys are saying about some Stefan fans, but it comes from all fans imo. Fans of Damon, Fans of Elena, and Fans of Bonnie and the list goes on all have fans that won't acknowledge the wrong their characters do EVEn when the characters admit it. tbh though I didn't care that much about Jessica. I thought the writers were going to have him spare her, but when he killed her I was not mad at him for it, but sad that he went a step backwards. I think Ian did a really good job with that scene. Ah, the Bonnie fan. Quite the piece of work that one is   Damon had a lot on his plate at the time of Jessica. Rose had just died from a bite meant for him cause once again, he was doing the 'Damon' thing getting in Jules' face and Elena was on his back and got him to admit he missed his humanity. I'm still wondering if they'll ever bring up the Jessica thing with him again. We talked about it in the other thread about the 'Ghosts' and I think that would have been the perfect time for her death to come back and haunt him. |
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Post by Tara on Jan 14, 2012 14:14:47 GMT -5
My thoughts on the Andie thing, I in no way am saying Stefan did right. But he had to get them to stop tracking him. Klaus did say that if Stefan didn't stop it, he'd step in or something like that. To me it was the better of the two options. I am not saying it's right, but I think Stefan was trying to stop Damon, and he had to do it big. I felt horriable when Andie died, but was it better than Klaus stepping in? Probably. Did he need to do what he did? I don't know. But I do feel Stefan was doing what he thought he had to. He's done horriable things lately, but I do feel like it's all for a reason. The stuff he did before when he was really "ripper", no no excuses for that. But now I feel like there is a reason for everything. Just my thoughts, I know everyones jumping on Stefan. But when we say negatives on Damon, you guys jump right on defending him. So what's really the difference? Everyone's going to defend the ship they like. None of them are perfect, they've all made mistakes. But everyone see's that differently.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2012 14:17:42 GMT -5
My thoughts on the Andie thing, I in no way am saying Stefan did right. But he had to get them to stop tracking him. Klaus did say that if Stefan didn't stop it, he'd step in or something like that. To me it was the better of the two options. I am not saying it's right, but I think Stefan was trying to stop Damon, and he had to do it big. I felt horriable when Andie died, but was it better than Klaus stepping in? Probably. Did he need to do what he did? I don't know. But I do feel Stefan was doing what he thought he had to. He's done horriable things lately, but I do feel like it's all for a reason. The stuff he did before when he was really "ripper", no no excuses for that. But now I feel like there is a reason for everything. Just my thoughts, I know everyones jumping on Stefan. But when we say negatives on Damon, you guys jump right on defending him. So what's really the difference? Everyone's going to defend the ship they like. None of them are perfect, they've all made mistakes. But everyone see's that differently. Perfectly said  |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 14, 2012 14:45:15 GMT -5
My thoughts on the Andie thing, I in no way am saying Stefan did right. But he had to get them to stop tracking him. Klaus did say that if Stefan didn't stop it, he'd step in or something like that. To me it was the better of the two options. I am not saying it's right, but I think Stefan was trying to stop Damon, and he had to do it big. I felt horriable when Andie died, but was it better than Klaus stepping in? Probably. Did he need to do what he did? I don't know. But I do feel Stefan was doing what he thought he had to. He's done horriable things lately, but I do feel like it's all for a reason. The stuff he did before when he was really "ripper", no no excuses for that. But now I feel like there is a reason for everything. Just my thoughts, I know everyones jumping on Stefan. But when we say negatives on Damon, you guys jump right on defending him. So what's really the difference? Everyone's going to defend the ship they like. None of them are perfect, they've all made mistakes. But everyone see's that differently. Except that it didn't stop Damon from tracking him. I would have thought Stefan would know that. I do understand him 'trying' to stop Damon from tracking him but did someone have to die to do that? Damon is one stubborn sob.  I'm glad you all 'the best Stelenas in the world imho' are able to admit it so it isn't really you guys I'm referring to but people who stubbornly defend Stefan as the 'white knight' no matter what he does. He just isn't that, and it bugs me that people do it. Damon is far from perfect and pretty much every DE I know can admit to that. I'd just like to see Stelenas be able to admit that Stefan isn't perfect too and that he has made mistakes. The truth shall set you free. At the end of the day, the brothers aren't so very different as people might think. They both have their demons to conquer. |
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Post by loverofcw1230 on Jan 14, 2012 16:15:25 GMT -5
I'm just depressed because Elena has given up on Stefan. And I just thought that was something she'd never do. I knew Delena was going to happen but I thought she would still show guilt over Stefan and how much she still loved Stefan even though she loved Damon too but I saw NONE of that. DAMON was the one going after Stefan. DAMON was the one who felt guilty. DAMON is the one who has SAID he doesn't want to lose Stefan and he won't let him go. That was all DAMON. So, yeah I'm depressed. I'm sad. I'm disappointed. Because I just never expected this from Elena. What happened to "I haven't given up. I still have hope." "Don't walk away Stefan." "Keep fighting." "I love you, Stefan. Hold on to that." WHAT THE HELL is with this "We'll survive this Damon. We'll let Stefan go then." And her not even objecting to the kiss. And don't tell me she felt guilty because that was all just eye-sexing. DAMON was the only person who felt guilty there. Like seriously? Elena  "WELL YOU CAN GO TO HELL THEN ELENA." |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2012 16:26:18 GMT -5
I did not and did not see many make excuses I just didn't care that she died. I mean Damon liked her and all, but he was abusing her. I mean who even knows what her true feelings were about Damon and the situation she was in because Damon was compelling her and feeding on her. Yes, Stefan killed her and it was wrong, but what Damon was doing was only slightly better, even if he cared about her. You can call the an excuse all you want, but to me it is just the truth. Caring that she died or not is irrelevant. If it wasn't, who the hell are all the people who ripped Damon a new one for killing 'Jessica', the innocent girl who decided to be a good person and stop to see if this guy laying in the road needed help. I'm sure all those people didn't 'care' about Jessica and hell, we didn't even know who she was cause of the 2 minutes she had on screen but that death was used as more gasoline for the Damon bonfire people have been throwing in the past. The fact that she [Andie] died the way she did for the reasons she did is the issue here. As for Damon abusing her, early on, yes. Then he let her go after she said she really did feel for him (compulsion or not is up for debate). Come S3, the 2 are back together, more than likely for Damon to keep himself preoccupied but he did seem to have developed an appreciation of her and from what little we saw in S3, he wasn't compelling her. We don't know how the 2 met back up (Damon needing to keep some distance with Elena and needing Andie's help) but they did. I don't think Damon was using/abusing her at that point if her death was any indication. What Stefan did to her was simply for kicks. In fact, what he did to her was undone just a few hours later when he went and made that damn phone call to Elena. He had just killed Andie to send a message for Damon & Co. to stay away and then he makes Andie's death pointless by picking up the phone for a mute, sob moment. You are right it makes no difference on whether it is right or wrong, but it does play on how I feel about Stefan. If he killed someone I did care about in the same way. Like Jeremy or Bonnie my reaction would have been WAY different. Does that make sense? |
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Post by loverofcw1230 on Jan 14, 2012 16:27:11 GMT -5
I feel like all of Elena's choice lately are so stupid, and like Bonnie said it's NOT Elena's freaking choice to send him away. It's HIS life. I've always hated the "I'm doing it to protect you" thing because it's totally BS. You should NEVER take away somebody's choice just to protect them, because
A) usually it backfires
B) It's just going to PISS THEM OFF
and C) Choice is one of the greatest gifts we have in life. Who the HELL does a person think they are to take that away?
So no, I'm in no way, shape, or form behind Elena this time, in anything she's doing.
One thing I have always admired and love about Elena is that she never gives up on people. Take that away (Jeremy...Stefan!!) and you take away my love for her.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 14, 2012 18:19:02 GMT -5
I feel like all of Elena's choice lately are so stupid, and like Bonnie said it's NOT Elena's freaking choice to send him away. It's HIS life. I've always hated the "I'm doing it to protect you" thing because it's totally BS. You should NEVER take away somebody's choice just to protect them, because A) usually it backfires B) It's just going to PISS THEM OFF and C) Choice is one of the greatest gifts we have in life. Who the HELL does a person think they are to take that away? So no, I'm in no way, shape, or form behind Elena this time, in anything she's doing. One thing I have always admired and love about Elena is that she never gives up on people. Take that away (Jeremy...Stefan!!) and you take away my love for her. I'm sorry but I never saw Elena giving up on Stefan! us DE fans were so annoyed with her all season bc we were like when will you give up already!!! She gave in to the kiss! I mean come on. Who wouldn't after everything! She is HUMAN! I'm glad she gave in.. obviously I'm a DE but also because it showed how flawed and how human we really are as people. We sometimes give in to something we have been fighting off for MONTHS guys she has been fighting! It took her by surprise and lets face it after Stefan told her, her brother wasn't his problem and that basically fi he died which he almost did, was not his problem Damn it she can kiss who she wants! Elena told him she wont love a ghost! The minute Stefan got his control back he stole coffins. He didn't go to Elena. He didn't let her know he wasn't compelled and he didn't betray them. Stefan isn't fighting for Elena so why should she fight for him? We forget that Stefan gave up on Elena too. He isn't fighting for her anymore. When Damon told he on the porch that Stefan didn't betray them it told Elena two things... Stefan is back and Stefan was back and still didn't care about you, your brother or anyone he cares about revenge most! Not ripper Stefan... not Klaus's bitch Stefan! STEFAN! I think she would rather a compelled Stefan who fought back his compulsion for Damon tell her than Stefan! |
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 14, 2012 18:22:20 GMT -5
I get this but at the same time when Damon ate Jessica a no named girl who was an extra he got hit HARD! He was condemned and then some! But Stefan kills Andie and lets be honest people were up in arms about Damon and Andie's relationship yet not up in arms when Stefan ended it. It's like Damon gets yelled at for killing and extra and having a relationship that ended up him caring more than he wanted to for Andie but Stefan kills her and it's ok. I just don't know when or what Stefan will do to make people go WOW what he did was horrible and wrong and shouldn't have done that instead of making excuses for why he did it! Damon killing the extra Jessica was wrong I admit it and wished he never but I understand his reasoning. You can understand why Stefan does what he does but at the same time think it's wrong and I haven't seen many SE's or Stefan fans even admitting that he is dead wrong here. But thanks for making this convo an easy one. I never feel as if we are arguing! Me either! Yeah, I get what you guys are saying about some Stefan fans, but it comes from all fans imo. Fans of Damon, Fans of Elena, and Fans of Bonnie and the list goes on all have fans that won't acknowledge the wrong their characters do EVEn when the characters admit it. tbh though I didn't care that much about Jessica. I thought the writers were going to have him spare her, but when he killed her I was not mad at him for it, but sad that he went a step backwards. I think Ian did a really good job with that scene. We do we make excuses for our main squeezes all of the time. But my issue is just someone not calling what Stefan is doing as wrong. Damon does tons of wrong things! I have always called Damon's actions wrong when they are! But I understand and can explain why he did it and relate to him. Stefan is a ripper. They are doing things to his character to bring shock value and raise the bar! Stefan said he is worse than Damon and in some instances we have seen this and yet I'm not seeing anyone saying he is wrong. I see a bunch of excuses that he is right. Not one person saying wow Stefan is dead wrong for this but I understand why. That irks me. It's just excuses when the writers are making him a douche on purpose to irk the audience and the characters and yet it's excused. The writers are probably like WTF do we have to do to this guy for people to see that he is dead wrong right now! Kill Elena? |
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 14, 2012 18:27:57 GMT -5
My thoughts on the Andie thing, I in no way am saying Stefan did right. But he had to get them to stop tracking him. Klaus did say that if Stefan didn't stop it, he'd step in or something like that. To me it was the better of the two options. I am not saying it's right, but I think Stefan was trying to stop Damon, and he had to do it big. I felt horriable when Andie died, but was it better than Klaus stepping in? Probably. Did he need to do what he did? I don't know. But I do feel Stefan was doing what he thought he had to. He's done horriable things lately, but I do feel like it's all for a reason. The stuff he did before when he was really "ripper", no no excuses for that. But now I feel like there is a reason for everything. Just my thoughts, I know everyones jumping on Stefan. But when we say negatives on Damon, you guys jump right on defending him. So what's really the difference? Everyone's going to defend the ship they like. None of them are perfect, they've all made mistakes. But everyone see's that differently. I get it!!! I understand your point but we all do things for a reason in life. Doesn't mean it's right or justifiable. Stefan might have the most amazing reason to do what he did but it will never take back that he fed Elena the blood, scared her and took her to that same bridge her parents died on. It doesn't take back that he killed Andie. It doesn't take back that she is dead... KWIM? I in no way think Stefan shouldn't be forgiven. he needs to earn it though! Damon earned his forgiveness and now Stefan when Stefan is ready because Stefan is in no way sorry right now nor has he asked to be forgiven, he should be. But it wont be forgotten. |
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Post by thebabe20 on Jan 14, 2012 18:46:23 GMT -5
I'm just depressed because Elena has given up on Stefan. And I just thought that was something she'd never do. I knew Delena was going to happen but I thought she would still show guilt over Stefan and how much she still loved Stefan even though she loved Damon too but I saw NONE of that. DAMON was the one going after Stefan. DAMON was the one who felt guilty. DAMON is the one who has SAID he doesn't want to lose Stefan and he won't let him go. That was all DAMON. So, yeah I'm depressed. I'm sad. I'm disappointed. Because I just never expected this from Elena. What happened to "I haven't given up. I still have hope." "Don't walk away Stefan." "Keep fighting." "I love you, Stefan. Hold on to that." WHAT THE HELL is with this "We'll survive this Damon. We'll let Stefan go then." And her not even objecting to the kiss. And don't tell me she felt guilty because that was all just eye-sexing. DAMON was the only person who felt guilty there. Like seriously? Elena "WELL YOU CAN GO TO HELL THEN ELENA." Wow Can I just say that I respectfully disagree with this. I don't understand what else Elena was supposed to do to help Stefan. What has she not tried to help him? How hard must she fight to keep Stefan? Stefan GAVE UP! On Elena, on their relationship on pretty much EVERYTHING. He NEVER even fought at all so I think if anyone should be a disappointment, it's Stefan. Not Elena. I don't see how anyone could be disappointed in Elena and not Stefan, when she's the one who fought for them, while Stefan continued to disregard her and push her away. And not once fight for what they had. I'm seriously confused by this. It seems like the only way some fans won't fault Elena is if she becomes this pathetic girl that continues to fight for Stefan no matter how much emotional crap he puts her through. No matter how much he hurts her and disregards her. That is not a heroine I'm interested in watching. Elena has every right to move on from Stefan after the things he's done and after putting in her best efforts to try and help him. The rest is on him. If he's not willing to fight for their relationship, she has every right to turn her back on him. She owes him NOTHING else and she's not Stefan's property. Stefan is not a baby that needs to be coddled and protected. He made decisions and voiced his opinions about their relationships loud and clear, and not in the most sensitive of ways. So why do people still expect Elena to stand around trying to win his love back? I found Stefan's statements in the last episode rather infuriating and downright disrespectful. It made him appear like an ungrateful asshole. He doesn't even recognize what she did for him and how much she sacrificed to try and help him. Instead he "claims" that he lost her the minute he left town with Klaus as if this is somehow her fault.  |
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Post by Tara on Jan 14, 2012 19:19:05 GMT -5
My thoughts on the Andie thing, I in no way am saying Stefan did right. But he had to get them to stop tracking him. Klaus did say that if Stefan didn't stop it, he'd step in or something like that. To me it was the better of the two options. I am not saying it's right, but I think Stefan was trying to stop Damon, and he had to do it big. I felt horriable when Andie died, but was it better than Klaus stepping in? Probably. Did he need to do what he did? I don't know. But I do feel Stefan was doing what he thought he had to. He's done horriable things lately, but I do feel like it's all for a reason. The stuff he did before when he was really "ripper", no no excuses for that. But now I feel like there is a reason for everything. Just my thoughts, I know everyones jumping on Stefan. But when we say negatives on Damon, you guys jump right on defending him. So what's really the difference? Everyone's going to defend the ship they like. None of them are perfect, they've all made mistakes. But everyone see's that differently. I get it!!! I understand your point but we all do things for a reason in life. Doesn't mean it's right or justifiable. Stefan might have the most amazing reason to do what he did but it will never take back that he fed Elena the blood, scared her and took her to that same bridge her parents died on. It doesn't take back that he killed Andie. It doesn't take back that she is dead... KWIM? I in no way think Stefan shouldn't be forgiven. he needs to earn it though! Damon earned his forgiveness and now Stefan when Stefan is ready because Stefan is in no way sorry right now nor has he asked to be forgiven, he should be. But it wont be forgotten. I disagree there. I do think Stefan feels guilt, sorrow, all that. I think his main focus is Klaus, but I can see it in his eyes sometimes. He showed it in the car with Katherine too. But I think it the end, all of it will be worth it. None of them can live their lives freely with Klaus around, espically Elena. He's a threat to all of them. So if Stefan does get rid of him, I don't know if I can blame him for what hes done. I'm not saying he's perfect. When he had Elena and was going for the bridge, it was horriable. That was probably my lowest Stefan moment. But in the end, if he does get rid of Klaus, I don't think I'll blame him. He's done rotten things, but in the end if he makes them all safe, to me that's what matters. |
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