Game of Thrones

[Doppelgänger]

Jul 13, 2012 13:32:42 GMT -5 Slash said:

**BOOK SPOILERS**



So I've just read up to the part in Book 1 where Robert comes back from his hunting trip and the Boar has tore him a new one while leaving Eddard as the acting Protector of the Realm. The book really makes me hate Ned He's got the whole 'honor' thing down to a T and reading the book & seeing the show really drives home his downfall.

Cersei offered him a chance to avoid war/problems. It's something she didn't want at all. Robert may be more than a brother to you Ned but this was something that was going to lead to trouble. He should have taken Cersei up on that deal. Then, while Robert is laying on his deathbed, Renly comes to him and tell him he'll give him his 30 men + give him an hour and he'll have nearly 100 at Ned's side to take/hold the throne so the Lannisters aren't in control of the kingdom (Joffrey being the heir). Ned would take up the role for up to 4 years till Joffrey was of age and they could go from there with what to do with the Kingdom. Instead, Ned talks about the honorable thing and that since Joffrey isn't of Robert's blood, the throne succeeds to Stannis, who Renly even points out is going to be a bad option (he'd go after the Houses from the last war). You have all these people trying to keep peace/do what's best for the realm (yeah, the Lannisters have their other motives) but Ned is just pushing it to conflict.

Now, obviously from the show, we do see him bend a knee finally in 'confessing' so Cersei would spare him but then in comes Joffrey, cuts his head off, and you spark a war with the North and then it spread like wildfire with everyone trying to get in the race for the throne. Ned's role isn't the only one at fault here though. I think Cat is pretty horrible as well cause she took Tyrion the way she did which lead to Jamie acting out and killing some of Ned's men (probably pushing him further in exposing Cersei) and from there, Joffrey gets the idea that Ned is a traitor and should be made an example of and so on. So yes, Cat's actions play a big role too, if she hadn't taken Tyrion or confronted him on the matter in a better way (or didn't drag him all the way out to the Vale and instead worked with him and getting his help in finding out who really tried to kill Bran).

If Ned had taken up Cersei on her offer, and if she kept from killing Robert (not forcing Ned's hand), the realm would have stayed peaceful or until Stannis thought he'd expose Joffrey/Cersei/Jamie (cause he fled after Jon Aryn died). After Joffrey gets the throne, Ned would be free to go back to Winterfell and Sansa would have married Joffrey to be the new Queen. Things would have worked out for him and his family in the end. Instead, the realm is in chaos because of the whole 'honorable' thing and it's a bad time cause the Wildlings and White Walkers are amassing forces beyond the Wall, that has ~/less than 1,000 men to defend it.

Yes, I dread reading 'Eddard' chapters for that very reason.

I find it interesting that you take Cersei's point of view over Ned's. I personally do not. I believe Ned was absolutely right and whatever happened be damned. He did the right thing. He lost his head for it but he did the right thing and the war that has ensued was a righteous war. The only reason he ever bent his knee was for his daughter and he still lost his head for it. I really think no matter what he would have done that was the outcome so he did what he thought was best.

[Slash]

I do like that he stood by his views and they were indeed honorable. I just think that he...could have gone about it better. And I'm not taking Cersei's side/POV. I just think that if it kept the peace, whether righteous or not, it would have been better.

Cersei offered him a way out early on by just letting things be. He wasn't going to leave Robert like that though so I understand him wanting to move forward. He even gave Cersei the option of taking her kids and running before he told Robert. They both passed this up.

Then you have Renly who wanted to offer him the help he needed in getting Cersei out of the way. He passed this up and I feel like this was a huge blunder. He wanted Stannis, who was the rightful heir at that point, to be in power. He could have taken Cersei out of the picture and handed the throne to Stannis, against Renly's wishes, but at the very least, Cersei was out of the way and they could have gone from there in contending with the Lannisters. If he had voiced his pleas about the attempt on Bran, he effectively could have caught the Lannisters between Kings Landing, Stannis' own forces along with the Tyrells (they didn't like the Lannisters and surely Loras would have offered some troops) and then he could have called his bannermen in the North for Winterfell. But this is all if they wanted the Lion out of the way first. It more than likely would have led to a following war because as Renly mentioned, Stannis would have struck at the other Houses from the previous war and I think that would have ended up ugly in itself (on Ned's hands at that).

Instead, he passes it up and Renly leaves the next morning, with any influence he had in helping Ned. His consolation? He entrusts Littlefinger in helping him and it bites him in the ass. Not only that, but I just got done with Sansa's chapter (hate this girl so freaking much with how head over heels she is for ass-clown Joffrey and how she'd eat mud fresh off a pig to please him) and the only reason Cersei knew of Ned's plans to leave and get his daughters out of danger was because Sansa told the damn woman. Sansa wanted to say goodbye to Joffrey but Ned told her no so she goes to complain to Cersei about them leaving

I just really can't stand Ned, Sansa and Cat in the book. Their actions make me want to swing the axe myself on each and every one of them.

I don't think it was the fated outcome no matter what. It was his fated outcome because he allowed Joffrey to power and Cersei herself didn't see the power going to his head like that. She didn't want war. She made that perfectly clear. She was willing to let Ned off with his title of 'Traitor' if he bent the knee which is what he did (Mormont of the Night's Watch even mentions in Jon's chapter of wanting Ned on the Wall if possible because of his experience as a 'punishment' for being a traitor and that Tyrion would be able to vouch for him and the need of men on the Wall but Cat put a wrench in that when she took him). Joffrey was the one who said to hell with it, overstepped Cersei and called for his head anyways. She knew the outcome of Ned's death was war with the North which wasn't needed with Stannis & Renly readying their own forces after Robert's death and wanting to get the 'False King' off the throne. Joffrey screwed the family in the moment.

Ned couldn't play the 'Game' like everyone else because he was honorable. He could have told the truth about Cersei but him giving her the chance and telling her that he found out made her make the necessary moves she needed to stay ahead of him (get Robert killed, move Joffrey immediately to the Throne after Robert's death, etc.). Just looking at all his moves from a certain POV (as if it were an actual game) makes you really question why you would even make that move.

[Doppelgänger]

Well some people live by honor and that was him. Personally I loved the guy, even though everything that happened led to war. It was probably going to be inevitable no matter what he did, really. None of the others would have sat by and let anyone else have the throne. I don't like the Lannisters, except for Tyrion. I can't wait to see their heads come off their shoulders, the whole lot of them.

[Slash]

They talk about this later, or atleast from Jon's POV. When he finds out Ned has been named a traitor, he says he would never betray the King and that he was an honorable man and then a voice in his head says "But he fathered a bastard. Where is the honor in that?". So that was one of Ned's 'faults/slip ups' as some like to put it and I guess he just couldn't come to doing that again, even for prolonged peace in the Realm (War was going to happen as you pointed out cause after Robert was dead, Stannis & Renly would have come a knocking and even Ned had been relieved as Hand, he'd be called into war anyways to protect the King so he'd end up fighting a war for a false King that he knew about and I think that would have weighed too heavily on him).

It's just a really ugly time to be having this conflict with what's building up over the Wall and the long Winter coming + Dany looking to come back to the Seven Kingdoms to take the throne back for her family w/ 3 Dragons in tow.

Yep, Tyrion is the only one I care for. Tywin is also pretty cool in the show but hearing about some of the things he's done, not so much (think it was him who brought in the bodies of the Targaryen kids when they had taken the throne). I just really enjoy his scenes with Arya. Cersei and Joffrey can go die in a fire. I don't like Cersei's fixation on trying to hurt Tyrion in any way possible cause she's thinking he's trying to ruin Joffrey or get him killed (one Joffrey is doing well enough on his own with the people revolting and the other would be welcome). Joffrey is just...WOW. I hated him from the moment he lied about what happened between him, Arya and the butcher's boy on the way to King's Landing from Winterfell and then Cersei stepped in and wanted a Wolf dead for what happened (Nymeria was run off, Lady's life was taken in place). Jaime...don't like him either.

[Doppelgänger]

Well you're right about that, he did have his slip up, but then if he didn't we'd have to be calling him Jesus Christ. Everyone slips up in one way or another. Frankly I'm quite happy that Jon exists.

[Slash]

I'm liking Jon in the books but into S2 of the show, I was disliking him. I'm going to love seeing how his story goes with Rayder and the Wildlings. Really, the only Stark I don't care for is Sansa. That girl...Cat keeps being referenced as a 'Tully', and I just have that one bone to pick with Ned but otherwise I like him. Rickon is too young to even have an opinion of, Bran is pretty awesome for the hand he's been dealt along with Arya and Robb so that's about it.

But Robb has currently created his own problem when he was promised to another for marriage, and then he has to deal with his mother letting Jamie go. I'm also wondering how all that is going to pan out with Jamie and Brienne. When she gets him to King's Landing, wonder how that's going to go over with everyone. Will she be allowed to take Sansa with her back to Cat & Rob? I'd imagine shortly after, Arya and Gendry should be finding their way to a Stark camp.

GAH! Just thinking about this is making me realize just how far off S3 is I'll read into Book 2 but I may just stop after that. I want the show to stay ahead for me and I think Book 3 will be split between 2 seasons so I think I may break down on that and read anyways. I need that fix

[pixiestyx]

I can't stand Sansa, though I have some pity for her.

Jon's arc on S2 on the show wasn't the best. It was much better in the books. Book 2 is is very different from S2. It has the same basic plot points but they've changed a lot.

Book 3 is supposed to be split into two seasons because there's a ridiculous amount of things that goes on in that book. I'm VERY curious to see where they split it because one of the biggest shocks ever happens in the 3rd book (not even kidding, I had to read the chapter over to believe it).

If they get that far, it would be interesting to see what they do to books 4 &5, since they happen parallel to each other.

[Slash]

Sansa just strikes me as someone that needs a bit of common sense. I know she's worried about her family the entire time and is going to chime in with what the Lannisters want to hear to protect herself but her House with the full backing of the North is waging war against her captors. She should have left with the Hound when he bailed. It's just bad decision after bad decision that keeps her in the den of the lions. Now she's in a rougher spot cause she's been booted from her role as future Queen.

As for book 4&5, if they're parallel, I guess their best option would be to combine them and work from there (do things as they are timeline wise).

[pixiestyx]

Sansa gets better as she goes on, but I still don't like her much. I'm probably too hard on her since she's only 11 in the books but I've wanted to slap her many, many times.

They could probably combine books 4 & 5 easily. It really depends on how long the series lasts and if Martin finishes books 6 & 7

[Doppelgänger]

Looking forward to March 31st!

[Slash]

Show is coming back already? I'm...I'm ready! That ending to S2...can't wait to see how this all goes.

[Doppelgänger]

Yeah it's almost back and it looks like they'll be right in the thick of it...should be fun.

[pixiestyx]

I hadn't seen that trailer yet.  I'm so glad the show is back.  A Storm of Swords is the best book of the series and I'm dying to see what they do with it.

I might try to do a rewatch of S1 and S2 before the 31st.

[madforjoseph]

really cant wait i,m counting the days too watch this show again and see what happend too everyone

[pixiestyx]

Latest trailer:



Really excited by some of those scenes!