The Gloves Are Off..Stefan is a Dick!

[Doppelgänger]

Come tell me why he isn't. I felt like some healthy debate was needed around here since it's gotten so boring so tell me, why isn't Stefan just a bald faced lying dick? I'd like to hear it. I see that some people like to stay in their cocoon of denial but if you really believe he's a good guy, tell me why or is he indefensible because I think he is.

[Slash]

He's just driven that point home, about being a dick, the longer this season has gone on. They've done nothing redeeming with his character with this whole Ripper storyline and he still comes off as manipulative/shady in regards to trying to keep Elena his. The whole "I'm the Ripper but I'm still better than my Brother" crap was just 'UGH!' and to top it off, they pretty much locked the Ripper back up in the matter of 3-4 episodes compared to what we know of his past outings where the Ripper had to be tamed over 30-50 years of time, with Lexi's help no less.

The 'dick' personality kind of peeked out in the one episode where he told Damon he'd let him love Elena as long as he'd protect her and this was just a red flag for me cause it seemed so out of character for him at that time. It was a glimpse of the 'Ripper' but it's hard to nail down his personality cause he's in the same boat as Alaric. Then you think back to the comment about him not caring if Damon saw Katherine first, all he knew was that he wanted her or something of that sort and I'm at a loss for words for him.

We know Damon has done some bad things, whether for Elena, the Gang's protection or on impulse. Stefan though is on a whole other wave length in most of the things he does cause they come off as purely selfish on his part. I'd like to see some reasoning from others as well.

[ruby2579]

I don't think Stefan is a dick. He has said some things that make me look at my screen and say really Stefan? but I think its more of a jealousy issue.

The comments that had bugged me when he was all about Elena is hell off better without you and you can do better then him Elena...but I just felt he said these things because he was jealous and pissed that Damon and Elena could possibly have something

I think the writers kind of contradicted themselves with the whole rippah thing. I wish they wouldve left him in the rippah stage trying to fight his way back. I liked the fact that Damon was trying to help him control it but still. I would like to see what Damon did during the years to Stefan that caused Stefan to have such a hate for him in season 1

but besides that Stefan has picked his brother over Elena and Damon has picked his brother over Elena as well. I wish the deal they did wouldve been how about none of us go for her.

But anywho Stefan sacrificed his love for Elena to keep his brother alive last season finale. He messed up the plan to kill klaus to save his brother. Yea he didnt go right away to save Damon when he was captured because they were both on mission kill originals. The faster he killed the originals the faster it would also set Damon free. I think thats what his mentality was and knew Damon would had wanted that and he wouldve wanted Damon to do the same for him.

If he feels a little territorial over Elena, well she was with him first do you really blame him? im thinking realistically here

And although Elena told both brothers she didnt wanna choose because she doesnt wanna loose neither one of them, Stefan offered to leave anyway so Damon can be happy. They both know that Elena has feelings for both. It would be really akward if one still lingered around knowing this.

I know many saw it as him trying to get his brother out of the picture if Elena choose him but wouldnt it be more selfish if he said no stay dont leave knowing that seeing them together would torture him even more.

I know i have more to say but thats what i have for now lol

[Slash]

The Ripper thing has been so mishandled that I have to wonder if the Writers ever had a clear idea of where they were even going with that story. He's all of a sudden clean in the span of 2 weeks give or take, they try to throw this bonding thing in there with them where Damon is going to help him get a handle and after what amounts to one lesson, it's dropped and Stefan is better. Damon did what Lexi failed at doing twice in the span of 60-70 years? It doesn't add up AT ALL.

As for Stefan's attitude, it comes off as being jealous with a heavy handed layer of Mr. Dick. Damon's made great inroads to being a better person and even then, when Stefan is at his worse, he's still saying Damon isn't good enough for her and that he's still better. Not only that, but after finding out about the kiss, he just kept pulling that jab way too often and it came off as dickish/childish every time he did it. Like every morning after he had found that out, Damon & Elena were personally pissing in his cornflakes to give him a reason to be bitter and now, he's Mr. I Don't Care/Don't Tell Me What Happened With Damon? I think he doesn't want to know cause he knows he'll go back to that same BS of throwing it in their faces whenever he gets the chance.

The whole thing about Damon being captured still rubs me the wrong way. When has Damon ever listened to Stefan? Damon would have postponed and went to go get Stefan regardless of what he wants. This was Stefan finally having a means to do more damage to Klaus and even kill him and that took priority over every thing else in his life, even Elena. The whole 'Ripper' thing showed as much. He was obsessed with killing Klaus and every thing else took a backseat (Damon was also obsessed as I feel the whole angle was drawn out a bit too much) but Damon still put the protection of others ahead of that. And when they found out that killing an Original destroyed their line, they sat around pondering things knowing full well Damon was still captured. It wasn't a dire situation for them/Stefan at all that Damon was taken forcefully by Bekah. He could have been dead for all they knew. Stefan only made his move after a hitch in their plan to kill the Originals revealed itself (destroying the entire lines) and even when he saw Damon in the condition he was in, there was no attempt to free the guy. He calls for Klaus and then a pissing match ensues where he watches Klaus torture him some more. Neither one of the two were going to give up ground in that and Bekah had to step in for Damon's sake.

Territorial over Elena is understandable if he was still with her. I know that he left to save Damon but he was supposed to be gone for 10 years. He's back in roughly 3 months, able to pick up where he left off but he instead opted to pursue vengeance with Klaus and drive himself further apart from Elena. Territorial or not, the things he said about Damon at that point in time didn't give him a leg to stand on.

I talked about their deal in the other thread. If he leaves, it might make things kind of hard on Damon & Elena's relationship cause she wants both of them around and she'll feel like she forced Stefan away but I think Stefan posed the deal because in the off chance she does pick him and Damon ends up leaving, Elena would just chalk it up to the whole 'lashing out' thing. Damon not getting her/what he wants so he does something like kills someone or ups and leaves. She'd expect that at the very least from him and it's a win-win in Stefan's case cause he either ends up with her or his leaving makes things a bit rough on them. Stefan comes off as manipulative a lot of time (as does Elena when she was playing on Damon's emotions for her to make him do things for her or do things her way) and this seems to be in the same ball park IMO.

[Doppelgänger]

May 8, 2012 15:02:41 GMT -5 @ruby2579 said:

I don't think Stefan is a dick. He has said some things that make me look at my screen and say really Stefan? but I think its more of a jealousy issue.

The comments that had bugged me when he was all about Elena is hell off better without you and you can do better then him Elena...but I just felt he said these things because he was jealous and pissed that Damon and Elena could possibly have something

I think the writers kind of contradicted themselves with the whole rippah thing. I wish they wouldve left him in the rippah stage trying to fight his way back. I liked the fact that Damon was trying to help him control it but still. I would like to see what Damon did during the years to Stefan that caused Stefan to have such a hate for him in season 1

but besides that Stefan has picked his brother over Elena and Damon has picked his brother over Elena as well. I wish the deal they did wouldve been how about none of us go for her.

But anywho Stefan sacrificed his love for Elena to keep his brother alive last season finale. He messed up the plan to kill klaus to save his brother. Yea he didnt go right away to save Damon when he was captured because they were both on mission kill originals. The faster he killed the originals the faster it would also set Damon free. I think thats what his mentality was and knew Damon would had wanted that and he wouldve wanted Damon to do the same for him.

If he feels a little territorial over Elena, well she was with him first do you really blame him? im thinking realistically here

And although Elena told both brothers she didnt wanna choose because she doesnt wanna loose neither one of them, Stefan offered to leave anyway so Damon can be happy. They both know that Elena has feelings for both. It would be really akward if one still lingered around knowing this.

I know many saw it as him trying to get his brother out of the picture if Elena choose him but wouldnt it be more selfish if he said no stay dont leave knowing that seeing them together would torture him even more.

I know i have more to say but thats what i have for now lol

Him leaving last season to save Damon isn't what has put him on the brink of losing Elena so it's not a valid argument. Him being a dick is probably more realistic. Him being a ripper, him telling Elena he didn't want her anymore, also realistic. Him pushing her away, him pushing them together but most of all, her growing closer to Damon all on her own is why he doesn't have Elena now. None of which is because he left town to 'save' Damon. That excuse is used to garner him sympathy and I don't buy it. I also don't buy that he said he'd leave town because he cares about Damon being happy. He's never cared about Damon being happy.

Like Slash said, even back in season one he admitted to lying to him, to not caring if he hurt him, to letting him risk his life for Elena so he didn't have to. He has NEVER considered Damon's happiness so why should I believe he'd do that now? Every conversation between them has Stefan making some assholio remark just to dampen Damon's mood lately and THAT is who Stefan is. I don't know who this imaginary brother is that people seem to think is Stefan because all his behavior points to him being a dick.

[ruby2579]

I never said him leaving town was what got Elena and Damon together. I said he SACRIFICED his love for Elena to keep his brother alive. Stefan out the picture gave Damon and Elena a straight connection to their sexual tension or attraction that was building up.

And I agree with Slash about Bekah killing Damon but he did give up the stakes to release his brother. Did Vengaence blind Stefan, I say Definitely yes.

And when in season 1 did Stefan said about lying to him? if you talking about Katherine well both Brothers played that role so u cant really put it on stefan.

I believe Stefan wants Damon to be Happy. And who knows maybe stefan said he would leave so he wouldnt have to bare seeing them together

And Damon always played the "bad brother" thats how people will view him even if he has changed. It willl take a while. Damon is impulsive everyone knows it but We all know when Damon loves he loves and he has an awesome heart.

[ruby2579]

btw i am both a huge fan of damon n stefan =) individually n together lol

[Slash]

May 8, 2012 16:57:25 GMT -5 @ruby2579 said:

I never said him leaving town was what got Elena and Damon together. I said he SACRIFICED his love for Elena to keep his brother alive. Stefan out the picture gave Damon and Elena a straight connection to their sexual tension or attraction that was building up.

And I agree with Slash about Bekah killing Damon but he did give up the stakes to release his brother. Did Vengaence blind Stefan, I say Definitely yes.

And when in season 1 did Stefan said about lying to him? if you talking about Katherine well both Brothers played that role so u cant really put it on stefan.

I believe Stefan wants Damon to be Happy. And who knows maybe stefan said he would leave so he wouldnt have to bare seeing them together

And Damon always played the "bad brother" thats how people will view him even if he has changed. It willl take a while. Damon is impulsive everyone knows it but We all know when Damon loves he loves and he has an awesome heart.

I think the main problem between them is that they love the same girl. Katherine and now Elena. If Damon had carried on with Rose and she was still alive, it'd probably not even be an issue. Damon would be happy with someone that he cared for and that returned his feelings without all this Mickey Mouse BS that Elena has been playing with him and Stefan could go about repairing the damage that was done with Elena. Granted, Rose would probably still be alive if Damon hadn't poked a Wolf with a stick but I kind of figure they would have thrown her to another Wolf in the form of Klaus and would have wanted her out of the way regardless cause she'd be an obstacle in getting to Damon & Elena as a couple.

Both Brothers loving the same girl brings out the ugly side of Stefan. I'd really love to see this aspect ripped out of the equation so both Brothers each had a girl to call their own and that wasn't split between them and vice versa (said girl's feelings for both of them making things even harder; Katherine says she loves both Brothers and Elena is in the same position).

Have to remember that part of Damon's situation is also because of Stefan. Stefan went out of his way to bad mouth Damon before anyone really got a chance to know him, sans his impulsive actions like killing the coach, turning Vicki, attempting to kill Bonnie to get at Emily, etc.. Stefan was dragging the guy's name through the mud as soon as he got wind he was in town and it's stuck with Elena's friends despite what Damon has done for them and in contrast, Damon has kept his mouth shut. He never once brought up the Ripper or the ugly history that Stefan had until Stefan himself revealed it (I'm still wondering if Caroline even knows about Ripper Stefan).

Stefan has painted Damon in that light but it's also the combination of Damon himself taking up the burden of doing the dirty things that he deems need to be done to keep his friends safe. He does the stuff that he knows would burden other people and he lives with that. I think he's conditioned himself at this point to play that role which is why he doesn't care for showing the good off. He's put up with the crap from his father and Stefan that we know of so I think he just doesn't care for all the slamming he gets.

Honestly, I'd be happy if the Gang acknowledged the good he's done. Saving Matt, Caroline (2-3 times, I've lost count), Tyler, Bonnie. Just a simple thanks. And maybe looking at both Brother on a leveled field. They feel like they know Stefan and still think they do but treat Damon all the same. It's like they haven't progressed past their S1 opinions of the Brothers despite all that's happened. I'd chalk this less up to the characters and more up on the Writers just not wanting to do anything on this front.

[ruby2579]

I know what you mean but in season 1 Stefan had all good reason to bad mouth Damon. He was the villian and doing all these crazy things. He had his mini turn around when he found out Katherine was not in the tomb

Damon has saved many and I wonder why they have never acknowledged him for it. Especially Caroline and i think bonnie was fine with him until the whole abby thing again

For every good thing Damon does he also levels it with something bad. but he makes the tough choices other people r not willing to make or he just doesnt have the patience to try to find another way.

[Doppelgänger]

Ah, but he exaggerated Damon's bad side, made him out to be much worse than he turned out being and turned the town's people against him. Are those really the actions of a loving brother? Damon is a vampire and in fairness he wasn't behaving any worse than any other vampire would have and he wasn't a ripper (like Stefan) and yet Stefan was the one making these claims about him being awful. Of all people, Stefan, his brother and fellow vampire, and one with an even bigger problem he was hiding, a ripper. That's what I call hypocrisy at its finest.

[Doppelgänger]

Oh by the way Ruby I love your siggy. That had to be my favorite Klaus line ever.

[ruby2579]

Thanks I love Klaus and his snarky quotes. HIm and Damon crack me up all the time! =) and also honestly Damon was the big bad guy in season 1 you cant really argue what Stefan said about his brother wasnt true. and He only really bad mouthed Damon with Elena.

Bonnie had first hand experience with Damon in season 1 with him biting her and all
Caroline Same thing
Jeremy not until the beginning of season 2
Matt and Tyler werent in the loop so yea but I have to say Damon has redeemed himself plenty =)

[ruby2579]

Also I really think we really need to see when Damon flipped the switch on Stefan on being completely evil etc etc because in the early 1900's Damon was regular with stefan. I think they owe us a flashback to show that.

And Stefan was not trying to hide that he used to be a ripper I think it was more him trying to bury that dark side of him. IN Season 1 Stefan was trying to find Damon's humanity throughout the episodes.

[Sweetluv4DE]

So I am gonna chime in..... I only find Stefan a dick when he says dick-ish things. I don't think he is an all around dick all of the time. My opinion differs from others because well I actually like Stefan. But Stefan with Elena or in scenes with Elena well they just bore me and he bores me then. I was an SE for like what was it 5 episodes before Friday night Bites. I was so angry at Damon at first but it took that one glance into his humanity and I was sold.

Back to Stefan being a dick..... lol I think he is one when he talks bad about my Damon. he says THE most hypocritical and just plain mean things about him and to him. It's not like a jab but a cut that slices deep and stings. I don't like that about him. he knows exactly what to say to make Damon feel this small ........ That bothers me. When people know they have that power over someone and they use it.

Damon plays it off as if it doesn't bother him but there are moments when his eyes almost squint and I know it stung him. I think you guys hit on those moments already. Also when he talked about Damon like a dog to Elena when he in fact had his own issues that he was keeping from her.... It took season 3 for the secrets to truly be revealed. I mean the whole cabin talk was sugar coated. He had a wall!!! How can you have a wall and then talk about another vampire? It made me feel like he did it to boast himself up in Elena's mind. Like "see I'm not like him. I'm a good vampire". So she wouldn't be against being with a vampire. It's like being a bully and a girl thinks you are a jerk for being one but you really like her so you tell her "yeah I picked on so and so but Mark over there HE IS THE BIGGEST BULLY and picks on EVERYONE.... I'm nothing like him". Get what I mean?

Anyway those are the moments where I wanna smack Steffy.

But I love Stefan when he is nice to Damon. I love Stefan when he interacts with Alaric, Caroline, Jeremy, Tyler, Klaus and even Matt! I loved when he was with Lexie. It was great! That is the Stefan I love. The guy not brooding to be with Elena. The guy who is not self loathing. The only SE moment I truly enjoyed all 3 seasons was the carnival one. Where he shot him and Elena to the top of the Ferris wheel.

We saw him laugh and he was light at heart! It was nice to see. It would no way make me believe in SE but it was a tolerable SE moment in my book.

[ruby2579]

Swetie what Cabin scene you talking about? =)