The Gloves Are Off..Stefan is a Dick!

[ruby2579]

Yea but that Stefan was the "no humanity" Stefan and I know what u mean because all of us were like this couldve been so handled differently. I know u HATE julie plec lol but she said this in an interview

Paul Wesley called when he read the script and he said ‘How could he…there’s no way that Stefan would leave her to die, you know….like he loves her so much’. He’s like ‘I don’t buy it for a minute’. And I said ‘What do you mean you don’t buy it? That’s the entire freakin foundation of Stefan and Elena’s relationship…that he respects her choice’. And this is her choice. And she’s saying to you ‘help him first’. I said to him, that your not leaving her to die, your just helping him first. And unfortunately, time has run out and then she dies before he can get back there but you know…it’s the beauty of the dynamic of your relationship and the fundamental thing that separates Damon and Elena from Stefan and Elena. What do you do in a moment where you know that if you don’t save the child, then you save your wife…she will probably never forgive you for saving her. And I believe that to be so true for Elena…like if Stefan saved Elena and let Matt die, especially given the way it all turned out, I don’t know that Elena could ever recover from that. The guilt would have been too much. So even though it sucked…it was horrible for Stefan…it was the worst thing he’s ever had to do in his entire life…and he would never probably do it again…it was the right call. (Source: The VRO)

[Doppelgänger]

Yes, Paul rightly realized that the way this was being written wasn't really appropriate in his mind, too. For the record, I like Paul. I think he's awesome.

But when we speak of Stefan we have to sort of forget he's just a fictitious character and assume the stupid things they write him as doing are in character and not a writer's flaw if we're going to debate it and we know that JP has said this will be something they actually emphasize, that his allowing her to make that 'choice' that subsequently caused her death, was some sort of proof of his love for her, which is twisted at best.

The real world truth is that this was just crappy not well thought out writing like so many other things that happen on this show. Even if I was a Stelena fan I don't think I could really buy that argument that him leaving her there showed his love for her and if he'd have saved her first it would have shown he didn't love her? OR what? What exactly are they trying to say with that because it makes no sense whatsoever? It's counter intuitive.

As for the rest, if you're going to argue that it was 'no humanity' Stefan who made all the mistakes then I just have to mention that you also have to give Damon a pass for when he had set his humanity aside and made mistakes.

But ok if that is the argument, how is it that Stefan magically was sorry (that's putting the term loosely since he never actually apologized) for threatening to drive her off the bridge the moment he heard Elena kissed Damon? This was the same day, same hour even, that he chastised her for leaving town to go to Bonnie's Mom's house. That move would have gotten Damon told off for being controlling and trying to take away her choices. That was my point in bringing THAT incident up. The whole choice thing is stupid and not consistent and should certainly NOT be emphasized as some sort of flagship for the SE relationship, because it's inconsistent.

[ruby2579]

I always give Damon a Pass lol I dont have anything against Damon I love him just not for Elena lol I really wish he would find someone who lifts him up in his self esteem etc. I know Elena challenges him but idk I think Damon deserves his own love story not to be the footnote (one tree hill quote lol)

I think Elena telling Stefan that she kissed Damon and she wasnt sorry about it were the words that were able to actually break Stefan. That wall he was trying to build to keep elena away.. and thats when he apologized because she broke that coldness

And Stefan feeding Elena blood and threatening to drive her off the bridge was to show how far stefan was being blinded by his revenge. I really dont think he wouldve done it, but he basically pulled a damon if i must say (not in a bad way) in the sense he needed her reaction to be real in order for Klaus to buy it. like damon did when bonnie faked died lol

and thats why that hurt Elena so much because she knew Stefan wouldnt be capable of that but he did it anyway

[Doppelgänger]

She didn't KNOW it because he did in fact do it. She thought he wasn't capable of it. She thought he wasn't capable of alot of things that it turns out he was capable of doing. Her perfect little view of Stefan didn't fit what she was seeing and she has yet to come to terms with that in truth. She's still in denial about it all because it really hasn't been addressed just how mean he was to her along the way of the ripper storyline, saying Jeremy nearly dying was not his problem and she was pathetic and such, again acting like a total dick.

I'm not buying that somehow she broke through to him other than him realizing he might lose her to his brother and oh no, he'd better not let THAT happen. Elena wasn't the catalyst, because she had been trying to get through to him all along, Damon was and the fact that she kissed him. Up until that precise moment he was still telling Elena to get lost and basically that he didn't care. If it weren't for Damon kissing her, nothing would have changed with him. He took her for granted and losing her to his brother would not be acceptable after the Katherine fiasco. THAT is what got him doing the about face.

[ruby2579]

BUt thats what im saying her words and the fact he could loose her to damon was what broke that wall.

[Doppelgänger]

Perhaps, but my point was it really wasn't her that did it or any proof of love or all her other attempts to get through to him would have worked. It was jealousy that made him feel sorry that he'd threatened to run her off the bridge and he's still acting like a dick or acted like a dick after that. I see they're trying to superspeed him back to 'normal' whatever that is with a ripper. What was the point of that storyline again? What was the point of the entire third season for that matter? As for the choice thing, there are many examples of Stefan NOT giving Elena a choice over the past three seasons and not just when he was a ripper. So trying to say now that he's the guy that does isn't consistent.

I'd say, looking back he might be 50/50 but it seems always at the wrong times he wants to let her decide something. Stelena deciding something is a recipe for disaster every time. Damon has ALSO let Elena have what she wanted, when she persued Stefan after he left is an example. He will stick around to make sure she lives through her choices though. Since with Esther she wanted to meet her alone, Damon had an issue with it whereas if he could be there to protect her, he wouldn't have. See what I mean? And what was Damon's compulsion? That she would have everything she wanted. He's NOT the opposite of Stefan on choice and it's easy to prove. She just might have to fight a little harder to get him to agree to things if he felt it risked her life and that is only because he cared/loved her. The whole concept that somehow Stefan loves her more for giving her a choice when she could die because of it, is ludicrous.

[ruby2579]

I would like to hear some of the examples you have of him not giving Elena a choice? Well besides plain sacrificing herself for the better good lol and yea whatever emotion he mightve felt when she told him I believe it broke that wall, thats what IM trying to say that was the turning point for him when hes like i need to get my s*** back together. I didnt give her up so she can end up with my brother kind of thing lol

[Doppelgänger]

Well starting from the very beginning he didn't give her the choice of knowing she was dating a vampire who ripped the heads off of people because he never told her. He let her believe he was a human like her and that Damon was the real monster still without fessing up to her what he really was himself, a ripper. I wonder if he would have told her he was a vampire at some point if she hadn't discovered it on her own.

As for other specific examples along the way, if I have time to go back over the episodes later, I will. In general, both brothers often agreed with each other and disagreed with her on things along the way that would keep her out of danger so Stefan didn't always side with Elena, though sometimes he did and sometimes he didn't. Sometimes he'd side with Damon. Like I said, it wasn't consistent.

[ruby2579]

Elena didn't know what Damon was only that he was abusing Caroline because she saw the marks. I think Stefan would've eventually told her but our nosey girl Elena finds out everything. lol Him taking his time to tell his story doesn't hit me as he wasn't giving her a choice

I think the times he went against her were because it was suicide but at the end of the day he would always give in ex: when she woke up ELijah and spent the day with him. He trusted her to know what she was doing.

Even when he thought it was a bad idea to go to the first dance she wanted to and although it was Damon's idea Stefan knew they needed the guy done with since he was invited in.

THe only time Stefan went against elena really was when she made the deal with Elijah to give up her life and he told her she's on a suicide mission

[Doppelgänger]

I just found a couple of examples, in Masquerade, he purposely set up the plan to kill Katherine without Elena knowing about it. He even stated, "I don't want Elena knowing about this." So, he didn't give her the choice of knowing about it, helping with it, disagreeing with it. He simply kept it from her, like he kept alot of things from her along the way and got Alaric to keep her busy at home and this was Stefan's plan.

Another example would be in the Sacrifice when Elena disagreed with Stefan and Damon about their plan to get into the tomb to get the moonstone but Stefan went ahead with it anyway trying to get Bonnie to despell it but wound up going in to the tomb anyway to save Jeremy and while he was in the tomb with Katherine, Elena went to try to go to him and Damon stopped her and Stefan told Damon to keep her away. Obviously that wasn't what Elena wanted so he didn't give her a choice there either and he made Damon promise to protect her and keep her away which is also a good point. He asked Damon to protect Elena and Damon promised he would and he always did. So then Stefan was free to appear to be giving Elena her choice knowing full well that Damon would stop her. He let Damon be the bad guy.

It's only recently that this is supposed to be a problem now. I had the same disbelief that Damon had in 3x14 when Stefan did what he did. He had asked Damon on numerous occasions to protect Elena and now it was a problem? Again he let Damon be the bad guy. He didn't have the balls at that point to go against her and now she's dead because of it. That's not heroic.

[Doppelgänger]

May 17, 2012 8:36:41 GMT -5 @ruby2579 said:

Elena didn't know what Damon was only that he was abusing Caroline because she saw the marks. I think Stefan would've eventually told her but our nosey girl Elena finds out everything. lol Him taking his time to tell his story doesn't hit me as he wasn't giving her a choice

I think the times he went against her were because it was suicide but at the end of the day he would always give in ex: when she woke up ELijah and spent the day with him. He trusted her to know what she was doing.

Even when he thought it was a bad idea to go to the first dance she wanted to and although it was Damon's idea Stefan knew they needed the guy done with since he was invited in.

THe only time Stefan went against elena really was when she made the deal with Elijah to give up her life and he told her she's on a suicide mission

The point was inconsistency. Because he allowed Klaus to take her to be sacrificed. He allowed her to stay in that car and drown, but at other times he would not allow her to do things she wanted to do. I think it's fair to say that it would be normal to be inconsistent like that but to say that the basis of the SE relationship was that he always gave her a choice is innaccurate and deceptive for that matter because he was instrumental in making Damon her protector and thus being able to keep her protected/go against her wishes if need be, without actually having to do it himself.

That's not to say Elena doesn't believe that he always gave her a choice because frankly alot of this she never knew. She never knew that Stefan made Damon promise to protect her and keep her away from the tomb and most likely the other times he asked Damon to keep her safe as well.

[ruby2579]

I get you but since season 2 they've always stressed that between Damon and Stefan that Stefan was always willing to trust Elena's choices no matter how stupid they would be or let her choose instead of choosing for her and thats why Damon always said he would always keep her alive because he wasn't afraid to go against her wishes.

[Doppelgänger]

Those were season 2 episodes I gave examples of so I don't understand what you are saying here and in season 3 Stefan did not respect Elena's wishes since he nearly drove her off the bridge for example. You can't emphasis what doesn't exist in the reality of the show, not that JP won't try.

[ruby2579]

I am saying that since season two they have stressed or emphasized how Stefan lets her make her own decisions. Excluding when she wanted to just sacrifice herself.

Damon on the other hand prefers to take things into his own hands because he doesn't have enough faith to trust the decision Elena makes. (NOT SAYING THIS IN A BAD WAY =))

This season they mentioned again at the Ball when she told Stefan one thing that has not changed is that he allows her to make her own choice

I don't take him threatening to drive her off the winery bridge to fall under this because this was his own mission for revenge...

In major decisions he has made her make her own choice.

The only thing I do not understand is that in the finale he made her choose the deal with Elijah when she wasn't the only one in danger it was the whole group and should've been decided by the whole group. I just feel elena likes to be in control

I was rewatching the episode PLAN B in season 2 when she was out of the loop and she JUST HAD TO KNOW what was going on

When they planned to kill Katherine she HAD TO GO AND SNEAK OFF TO THE PARTY so its just yea

[Doppelgänger]

Yes, you're right, Elena likes to be in control. But it's kind of a fact that her decision making skills suck badly so in that, I don't think Damon was ever wrong to try to convince her NOT to do some of the things she wanted to do as he wound up having to fix it 9 times out of 10, and now she's dead because of yet another faulty decision. Damon's desire to keep her alive comes from love. If he doesn't care about you, he doesn't bother. He has that small list, but if you're on it and he can save you, he will, just know that Elena is at the top of it and he will always choose her.

I still don't understand the point you are trying to make. Yes, the show implies Stefan lets her make her own decisions. They imply alot of things that can be disproven, but I showed examples of where he didn't let her make the decision and how can you 'not count' an example like the bridge only because he had his own agenda? Every example counts in the bigger picture of who Stefan is and what he stands for.