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Post by missmystic on May 7, 2014 8:30:34 GMT -5
Sometimes I feel like SE's and DE's are watching completely different shows lol. I don't understand how Stelena fans see what they see when they watch what we watch, it doesn't make sense lol. Damon will be seen as the hero? He already IS the hero! Stefan is a petulant, cry baby, lying sack of sh**. In what way does that make HIM the hero? I can count on 1 hand the number of times Stefan has done anything even remotely heroic. But I don't think I could begin to count the number of times he's done something childish, or deceitful, or self-serving, or how many people he has murdered! Seriously, what show are these people watching?
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 9:30:35 GMT -5
I find it ironic that while Stelena fans love to keep talking about any and all bad deeds Damon has done they completely ignore this:
and this...
Being a ripper is not an excuse. It's a very large character flaw in their supposed hero. He just keeps repeating the cycle with very little control over it. To me that makes him worse than your average vampire because he cannot control his bloodlust. It doesn't make him a victim or someone to feel sorry for any more than any other serial killer or any other vampire for that matter. The fact that he can't control himself makes him more of a danger not less of one. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 9:59:46 GMT -5
And This implies that Stefan had sex with these compelled women...doesn't that make him just the same as Damon in that regard, the very thing that Stelenas repeat ad nauseum about how horrible Damon is because of it? Stelenas should stop....really....they make themselves look bad.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 10:08:47 GMT -5
The point of the above is to show the hypocrisy of the Stelenas. Their main attack on Damon and why he is so awful is the exact same thing their 'hero' has done countless times. If they want to pretend that these are not vampires and therefore they should be judged by human standards then they need to judge them all with the same standard and Stefan has done many many evil things. He doesn't get a free pass just because he feels guilty about it later.
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Post by missmystic on Jun 26, 2014 10:48:21 GMT -5
100% agree with this! It drives me crazy. Every single time someone talks about how bad Damon is, its just so completely ridiculous! What's worse for me though is not just the fans, but the fact that they do the same thing with the characters on the show. I've been re-watching the last season (because my boyfriend wanted to catch up, and I honestly am hating it even more the second time than I did the first time ... but anyways), so I just watched the episode where Damon and Stefan hold Aaron hostage to get Elena back from Dr. Wes, and while Damon is dealing with Enzo, Stefan is alone with Aaron for a while. And Aaron tells Stefan about how Damon systematically killed his entire family, leaving only one person alive each generation to continue the family. And after hearing this, Stefan looks all sad and concerned and says, "Not all of us are like my brother ...." ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME?  Is he seriously implying that he, St. Stefan, would never do something like that??? I almost screamed at the tv I was so pissed off. He killed HIS OWN entire family, except for one or 2 to carry on the line ... the exact same thing as Damon did, except even worse, because it was his own family. And Stefan hadn't been tortured for 5 years by them! Not to mention all the other people he's brutally murdered, and ripped apart, including and entire town! But yeah, sure, Damon's horrible. And this is what the writers wrote!! That's what bothers me the most. Like do the writers even listen to what they're saying when they spit out this stuff?? It needs to STOP! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2014 10:53:25 GMT -5
That's what I find annoying. The fact that some fans seem to hold these characters up to human standards and morals when most of them are vampires in a supernatural world. Everyone in this show has killed someone or done something selfish to save a loved one or another.
I wouldn't even mind Stefan's behavior as a ripper if some of his fans didn't skim over it and act like it doesn't exist as part of his character, all the while condeming Damon for every single thing he does and actions since season 1.
Though I feel the real problem is people who can't seperate fiction and reality.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 12:09:14 GMT -5
That's what I find annoying. The fact that some fans seem to hold these characters up to human standards and morals when most of them are vampires in a supernatural world. Everyone in this show has killed someone or done something selfish to save a loved one or another. I wouldn't even mind Stefan's behavior as a ripper if some of his fans didn't skim over it and act like it doesn't exist as part of his character, all the while condeming Damon for every single thing he does and actions since season 1. Though I feel the real problem is people who can't seperate fiction and reality. Well that's the point. I think most Delena/Damon fans don't struggle with the fact that they are vampires and therefore they kill people and do dubiously moral things from a human standpoint, but not just Damon, ALL of them. When they start to pick and choose which characters they want to demonize while disregarding the rest is where I say, "Hold up now!" But their favorite argument to that is that they are ONLY talking about Damon. Of course they are! Their arguments for why he is so awful would not hold up if they were to look at them all in the same light, most specifically Stefan., since they are invariably his fans that do this. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 12:15:10 GMT -5
100% agree with this! It drives me crazy. Every single time someone talks about how bad Damon is, its just so completely ridiculous! What's worse for me though is not just the fans, but the fact that they do the same thing with the characters on the show. I've been re-watching the last season (because my boyfriend wanted to catch up, and I honestly am hating it even more the second time than I did the first time ... but anyways), so I just watched the episode where Damon and Stefan hold Aaron hostage to get Elena back from Dr. Wes, and while Damon is dealing with Enzo, Stefan is alone with Aaron for a while. And Aaron tells Stefan about how Damon systematically killed his entire family, leaving only one person alive each generation to continue the family. And after hearing this, Stefan looks all sad and concerned and says, "Not all of us are like my brother ...." ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME? Is he seriously implying that he, St. Stefan, would never do something like that??? I almost screamed at the tv I was so pissed off. He killed HIS OWN entire family, except for one or 2 to carry on the line ... the exact same thing as Damon did, except even worse, because it was his own family. And Stefan hadn't been tortured for 5 years by them! Not to mention all the other people he's brutally murdered, and ripped apart, including and entire town! But yeah, sure, Damon's horrible. And this is what the writers wrote!! That's what bothers me the most. Like do the writers even listen to what they're saying when they spit out this stuff?? It needs to STOP! The way I look at it is that they write Stefan the way he THINKS. He is in total denial about who he is. There are moments when he has some clarity and can admit to the atrocities he committed but invariably he falls back into the good brother/bad brother stereotype that he assigned to himself and his brother. Like during Miss Mystic Falls when he proclaims, "This isn't me. I don't do this. I'm the GOOD BROTHER." Yet he has a wall full of names of his victims over the years. This is how Stefan survives. He pretends he's not this person. He imagines himself as the hero when in truth he mostly runs away from any controversy. When he came to Mystic Falls he said he wanted to start a new life, free from the past, be someone new...so he runs away from who he is. He pretends he's something he's not and he assigns all his own bad qualities onto his brother. It's pretty sound psychologically what he does but we as the viewers are supposed to understand that, not fall for it (like the Stelenas) just because Stefan says it, as if that makes it true. It doesn't. We can see the hypocrisy in it. Stefan is in denial 99% of the time and he believes it so thoroughly that despite what we see of his crimes he manages to convince the people around him that he is 'good' too.
By the same token Damon has a warped sense of who HE is and has accepted the mantle of 'bad brother,' to the point that he can't function in any capacity as being 'good.' It feels foreign to him and he invariably will mess it up if things are going too well. Perhaps he feels he is being disloyal to his brother when he isn't behaving as the 'bad brother.' Psychologically it's possible. But it's all the same dynamic. Damon accepted that role of 'bad brother,' as the one that his brother could 'scapegoat,' who would take all the blame, who would do the hard things that Stefan didn't have the stomach to do. He would shield his little brother from the horrors of what he'd done. He'd protect him from the guilt. He'd do the distasteful things. Examples: Damon turned Bonnie's mother instead of Stefan simply because he wanted to protect Stefan from the guilt. Damon followed behind Stefan covering up his crimes as the ripper when Stefan went with Klaus. Had he always done this? It seems from what we've seen that the answer is, yes. He was never very far away from Stefan even if Stefan wasn't aware of it. That's what Damon does for Stefan and Stefan gladly let's him. I think that Damon fears that if Stefan truly and fully admitted and looked at his crimes it would destroy him so he doesn't let him. He continues the ruse of good brother/bad brother for his brother's sake. He let's his brother heap all the guilt and blame onto his shoulders because it keeps Stefan sane. It gives Stefan a monster he can blame for all his own crimes. Now it's become a habit after 165 years, but it doesn't make it the truth.
That's how it see it. There's something very deep and profound and yin/yang about the relationship between these brothers and it won't be fixed until Stefan steps out into the light of his own guilt, shame and blame, owns it and stops blaming his brother for everything that is wrong in his world. I suppose it's possible with Damon's death that Stefan, having lost his scapegoat, will have to find a way to accept himself as he really is, a ripper, an uncontrolled monster. He is never going to be able to control it for long. He never has. That's why he was the best choice to become human again but then who knows if he would have been a serial killer as a human...food for thought.
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Post by missmystic on Jun 26, 2014 13:29:03 GMT -5
That makes a lot of sense, and that's a really good way to look at it. If that's really where the writers are coming from, it is intelligent and well thought out writing that has great character depth. My problem is that I've lost a little bit of my faith that the writers are really doing all that intentionally, and that I can trust that there is method in the madness, so to speak. If I really believe they know what they're doing, then I completely agree with everything you're saying, and I can be a lot more ok with Stefan being in "denial" so to speak, and he and Damon each playing a role, like you said. But sometimes I just can't help but worry that us as fans might know the characters better than the writers, and they may actually believe the things the characters say ... I really hope not. I didn't used to think so. But after everything that happened last season, my faith is just not as strong as it once was. But I would definitely rather see it in a positive way.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 14:36:34 GMT -5
That makes a lot of sense, and that's a really good way to look at it. If that's really where the writers are coming from, it is intelligent and well thought out writing that has great character depth. My problem is that I've lost a little bit of my faith that the writers are really doing all that intentionally, and that I can trust that there is method in the madness, so to speak. If I really believe they know what they're doing, then I completely agree with everything you're saying, and I can be a lot more ok with Stefan being in "denial" so to speak, and he and Damon each playing a role, like you said. But sometimes I just can't help but worry that us as fans might know the characters better than the writers, and they may actually believe the things the characters say ... I really hope not. I didn't used to think so. But after everything that happened last season, my faith is just not as strong as it once was. But I would definitely rather see it in a positive way. Well we thought the same thing about Delena and alot of us lost faith in it despite everything we saw pointing to it and yet we did get Delena, so we weren't wrong about what we saw. The fact that Delena happened gave me new confidence in the writers doing what it appeared to be that they were doing. They hint at things along the way, they show contradictions, too, between what people say and what people do. I don't think they want it to be too obvious but if you are really watching you will see it. We could have taken Elena at her word that, "It would always be Stefan," like the Stelenas did and that would have been that, right? Wrong! Sometimes what these characters say and do doesn't match with what is going on inside of them, what they are feeling. Elena was struggling with her feelings for Damon for a long time...a very long time. You gotta give the girl credit for wanting to be true to Stefan. That's commitment. But in the end her feelings for Damon won out and to demonstrate just how strong her feelings really were, they gave us the sire bond, not to cheapen Delena, but to prove she loved him before she turned, before she was even willing to admit it to herself, that becoming a vampire didn't change her feelings. They were already there.
It took until Delena was really and truly together and Elena holding firm in that commitment to Damon before I let myself believe it but the writing was there all along. I think that's what you call a 'fait accompli.' The writing became obvious once the deed was done and there was no doubt that it was intended all along when you look back at it. There were many who didn't doubt it along the way but I think the writers designed it for doubt so we'd never really be so sure. We'd always be anxious for it to happen. In the end it looks like pretty darn good writing to me.
It went on a bit too long but I can look back now and see what they were doing and I think the good brother/bad brother is another one of these situations where we know it doesn't match what we see so there's a purpose to it all. We've already seen how Damon sacrificed everything for other people. He sacrificed his own life to save the ones on the other side and he would have done that no matter what. It wasn't even about Elena, though it was about Stefan. That isn't the act of an evil person. That isn't the act of a monster who cares for nobody but himself. That was the act of a hero by none other than the 'bad brother,' a total contradiction of what the show 'tells' us to believe and what the Stelenas buy into hook, line and sinker.
So for me I guess I would characterize Stelenas as people who don't read between the lines. They take this show at face value and what the characters tell us as the truth, not what we see between the lines. It's a more naive approach to viewing the show for sure. So they completely miss the messages along the way. It's not their fault that they're too literal but what Delena happening should be telling them is that they missed something vital in their interpretation of what was going on in the show. The fact that they are bewildered by it shows they completely missed those contradicting messages. It also tells me that is an essential clue to the bent of the writing of this show. Look for the contradictions in what the characters say as opposed to what we see happening for clues to the big truths about the show.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 15:13:44 GMT -5
Not to say that there hasn't been a lot of crappy writing along the way, because there has but the overall 'arc' now appears to have been pretty well planned out and I think that's sort of how JP works. She has a plan but how (or when) she gets there is flexible. They wanted us to hate Damon so they could start at ground zero with his character and build a seasons long arc to him winding up being the overall hero of the entire series. Stefan has been a bit player in the whole ordeal if you really look at it as a whole. He's on the sidelines of this show. He was always very shallow character wise, because that's what he wanted to be, despite the fact that he could have delt with his truths and been a much deeper character. He chose to hide from his truths. He has a very long way to go to get to a point of redemption himself. He'd have to overcome the ripper permanently but his character is so weak that nobody even wants to see it happen anymore. I did, in season three, but they rushed the whole storyline. Why? Because it doesn't matter. The show isn't about Stefan. You can tell what the show is about by the time and effort put into the storylines and that has been Damon and Delena. They made Damon the one who always lost, the one who nothing went right for, the one who was never loved so they could redeem him in the end...so we would root for him, and on top of that he took on all the burden for his brother along the way. What's not to love about Damon? They've got us right where they want us now. Hopefully they don't leave us with this tragic hero that he is right now.
To demonstrate what I mean about contradictions and messages about Damon. I do have to give Stefan credit lately for appearing to step out of the way of Delena...much to the Stelenas chagrin, but who knows how long that will last or IF it will last given that Damon is currently considered dead. Will he get ideas that Elena is available and set his sights on her again?:
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Post by missmystic on Jun 26, 2014 15:32:12 GMT -5
I think rewatching season 5 is putting me in a bad mood. Don't pay any attention to me lol. By the time I watch the finale again I'll prob feel more optimistic, ironically.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2014 15:36:13 GMT -5
That's a good way to put it. The writers writing Stefan as HE thinks of himself. For the first season and then some, Stefan introduced the story as his, and we always only knew things, like Kat's history, through Stefan's eyes.
And honestly I feel it's the only way to explain the moment Bekah compelled him as to the reason he and Elena broke up. Stefan flat out says that it's because she slept with his brother. He was compelled by an original to tell the truth and yet somehow he manages to tell that lie. It makes absolutely no sense. Unless Stefan's warped mind has convinced himself that it is the truth.
It's even more silly to think of it as a blunder on the writers part. They dedicated a whole episode building to the break up. They wrote the break up scene, Stefan being the one to initiate. 'I can't do this anymore Elena.' A room full of writers and no, 'Huh? That's not how it went down.' Nor do I think for a second the writers would even portray Elena in a way since they've been so careful building up DE slowly, keeping her faithful to Stefan, instead of just throwing DE together romantically in like season 2.
This leads me to believe that Stefan's statement is intentional to demonstrate Stefan's psyche, his mindset of how there's no way that Damon, the 'bad' brother, could be chosen over him. So he came up with his twisted logic that he believes to be the truth.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 15:56:00 GMT -5
I think rewatching season 5 is putting me in a bad mood. Don't pay any attention to me lol. By the time I watch the finale again I'll prob feel more optimistic, ironically. Season five will do that to ya! Season 4 was even worse for me.  |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 16:00:50 GMT -5
That's a good way to put it. The writers writing Stefan as HE thinks of himself. For the first season and then some, Stefan introduced the story as his, and we always only knew things, like Kat's history, through Stefan's eyes. And honestly I feel it's the only way to explain the moment Bekah compelled him as to the reason he and Elena broke up. Stefan flat out says that it's because she slept with his brother. He was compelled by an original to tell the truth and yet somehow he manages to tell that lie. It makes absolutely no sense. Unless Stefan's warped mind has convinced himself that it is the truth.
It's even more silly to think of it as a blunder on the writers part. They dedicated a whole episode building to the break up. They wrote the break up scene, Stefan being the one to initiate. 'I can't do this anymore Elena.' A room full of writers and no, 'Huh? That's not how it went down.' Nor do I think for a second the writers would even portray Elena in a way since they've been so careful building up DE slowly, keeping her faithful to Stefan, instead of just throwing DE together romantically in like season 2. This leads me to believe that Stefan's statement is intentional to demonstrate Stefan's psyche, his mindset of how there's no way that Damon, the 'bad' brother, could be chosen over him. So he came up with his twisted logic that he believes to be the truth.
Yes, I do believe that's what they are trying to tell us. I have actually known people like this is real life. They could not accept the bad parts of themselves and so they lied to themselves and everyone around them about their true nature. At first you think there's no possible way they actually believe what they are saying but they do! They've convinced themselves of their own lies. It actually happens. So, I don't find it hard to believe that's exactly how Stefan thinks and that they are trying to make it obvious with blatant things like that lie for instance. The funny thing is that nobody ever challenges him on it. Like Elena never says, "What? I did not do that!" The thing of it is in her heart she probably imagined sleeping with Damon a thousand times when she was with Stefan. That's why she was always so uncomfortable around him and we know what a vivid imagination she has now after her high school makeout fantasy...lol But that is probably why she didn't correct him. It's all semantics in the end. In her heart she was in love with Damon while she was still with Stefan. We know it's true and so does Elena. She was all over Damon the second they split up...haha...and yeah that's how it went, Elena went after Damon like a starving animal not the other way around but it was AFTER Stefan broke up with Elena. Damon did not take advantage of a heartbroken Elena.  (debunking Stelena lies one at a time)
I remember watching this scene and it seeming like she was stalking him down those stairs...lol...and out to the ceremony and later at his house...the way she was looking at him was like she was just controlling herself not to rip his clothes off right there and then...which she did eventually. The Petrova fire, I suppose.  Damon even looks a little nervous about her recent behavior, her acting 'weird' as he put it...hehe I love this scene...
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Is he seriously implying that he, St. Stefan, would never do something like that??? I almost screamed at the tv I was so pissed off. He killed HIS OWN entire family, except for one or 2 to carry on the line ... the exact same thing as Damon did, except even worse, because it was his own family. And Stefan hadn't been tortured for 5 years by them! Not to mention all the other people he's brutally murdered, and ripped apart, including and entire town! But yeah, sure, Damon's horrible. And this is what the writers wrote!! That's what bothers me the most. Like do the writers even listen to what they're saying when they spit out this stuff?? It needs to STOP! 
(debunking Stelena lies one at a time)
Damon even looks a little nervous about her recent behavior, her acting 'weird' as he put it...hehe I love this scene...
