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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 17:21:36 GMT -5
Also regarding the above Stefan mindset we know he was in denial about Elena's feelings for Damon when he and Damon had this conversation, even though he was told that the sire bond forms as a result of pre existing feelings that a HUMAN already has before turning AND he himself told Elena in season three that she was also in love with Damon, even though at that time Elena denied it but couldn't name what she felt for Damon.
Damon: “I get it, Stefan. I get that you’re pissed that Elena dumped you because she has feelings for me. Bet you blame the sire bond for that too.” Stefan: “Yeah. You know what? I absolutely do.” Damon: “Why? Because it’s impossible to think she could have feelings for me?” Stefan: “No, because it’s impossible for her to be so blind that she doesn’t see how wrong you are for her.”
It's like you said, he can't believe anyone would choose his brother over him, the 'good brother,' while Damon will always be the wrong choice in his mind and his opinion matters to Damon. You can see how hurt that made him feel but he also believed it himself so it only added to Damon's lack of self worth. For once the girl chose him but he couldn't trust it.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 17:36:44 GMT -5
Honestly for the first several episodes of season 4 Stefan was such an incredible asshole that I find it hard to believe he had any fans left after that and even more hard to believe that anyone saw him as any kind of hero with that behavior. If he was truly the hero he is proclaimed to be he would not have behaved the way he did toward both of them. In the end it WAS Stefan that did the breaking up with Elena even though she was OK with it, but after the fact he still wanted to keep his ownership of her, apparently, and that is not cool. He wanted to make them both feel bad. He lied about her sleeping with Damon (as was mentioned, essentially shaming her publically for something she didn't even do). He wanted to make their lives difficult. He wanted them to be unhappy. He even kept them apart for a short while. That's not heroic behavior. I get it and it was normal 'hurt' behavior but it wasn't what a hero would do.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 26, 2014 17:57:42 GMT -5
In contrast Damon let Elena go, told her his brother deserved her, not him, and compelled her to forget that he loved her. He still stood by her through everything and watched his brother love the woman that he loved as well. That's a much harder thing to do and there were times he couldn't help but let his feelings be known but he's not made of stone, is he? Thank God he managed to overcome his emotions being off but that only made it harder, not easier.
I just look at these two brothers. One, the supposed 'bad brother' willing to give up the one person who would truly make him happy to make his brother happy, and the other, the supposed 'good brother' lashing out at him, blaming him, always making him feel not good enough and I've got to say, it sure seems to me that they have their 'brother labels' mixed up. The best Stefan has ever been able to come up with to say to Damon is, "I'm not not happy for you." Lame!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 8:04:56 GMT -5
You know I've been thinking about what you said of TVD's writing. If you look over it as a whole, going back and rewatching the seasons, the writing comes off nothing short of brilliant. You see and witness these characters from the beginning come out of their own and become completely different people from season 1 to 5. Remembering there was a time where Bonnie was so against vampires, she didn't even want anything to do with Caroline.
Though of course the most notable changes goes to Damon, followed by Elena. Watching earlier seasons and the things they did and said to hurt each other to season 5 and how willing they are to die and be there for each other.
With that said, the one outlier in this equation is Stefan. As you said Doppel, we were made to believe Stefan was the hero, yet he did so many un-hero like things. Coming straight from the books from a Stefan who was TOO perfect in his ways to TV Stefan who almost came off antagonistic in his ways was such a drastic character overhaul. I liked Stefan for the first episode or so, but then they constantly made him lie, hide stuff, harp on Damon to the point he became unbearable.
Now here's the kicker, Stefan's behavior would have been somewhat 'tolerable' if the characters around him didn't ignore it. This wouldn't make him much more likeable, but at least we would have characters addressing the fact instead of plain out not addressing things like the bridge incident or him and his ripper activities, all the while making it seem like Damon's still a worst vampire than he is.
Having characters call out Stefan could have made way for him to actually change and develop like the others. Caroline, for instance, while her character hasn't been as good as her season 2 days, the old Caroline of season 1 was told how selfish/crazy/insecure she was. She wasn't given a free pass like Stefan on her behavior.
Honestly Stefan's the only one who gets passes and from a writing standpoint, I don't see how a character like that was made to go on for so long. A main character even who is static and unchanging in his ways over several seasons.
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Post by missmystic on Jun 27, 2014 9:04:21 GMT -5
You know I've been thinking about what you said of TVD's writing. If you look over it as a whole, going back and rewatching the seasons, the writing comes off nothing short of brilliant. You see and witness these characters from the beginning come out of their own and become completely different people from season 1 to 5. Remembering there was a time where Bonnie was so against vampires, she didn't even want anything to do with Caroline. Though of course the most notable changes goes to Damon, followed by Elena. Watching earlier seasons and the things they did and said to hurt each other to season 5 and how willing they are to die and be there for each other. With that said, the one outlier in this equation is Stefan. As you said Doppel, we were made to believe Stefan was the hero, yet he did so many un-hero like things. Coming straight from the books from a Stefan who was TOO perfect in his ways to TV Stefan who almost came off antagonistic in his ways was such a drastic character overhaul. I liked Stefan for the first episode or so, but then they constantly made him lie, hide stuff, harp on Damon to the point he became unbearable. Now here's the kicker, Stefan's behavior would have been somewhat 'tolerable' if the characters around him didn't ignore it. This wouldn't make him much more likeable, but at least we would have characters addressing the fact instead of plain out not addressing things like the bridge incident or him and his ripper activities, all the while making it seem like Damon's still a worst vampire than he is. Having characters call out Stefan could have made way for him to actually change and develop like the others. Caroline, for instance, while her character hasn't been as good as her season 2 days, the old Caroline of season 1 was told how selfish/crazy/insecure she was. She wasn't given a free pass like Stefan on her behavior. Honestly Stefan's the only one who gets passes and from a writing standpoint, I don't see how a character like that was made to go on for so long. A main character even who is static and unchanging in his ways over several seasons. See that's my problem too. When we talk here about all of Stefan's psychological issues it all makes perfect sense. Saying that he can't face himself, so he believes his own lies as a mode of self preservation, and falls into the routine of "Good brother" and "Bad brother." And how Damon falls into the same habits by devaluing himself and giving Stefan all the credit. To us this is clear as day, and could even be well thought out in a certain light. But the fact that no one on the show ever addresses it, or calls him on anything, and no one ever even comments on it in fact, for me that's a huge problem. It's one thing to have Stefan and Damon stuck in a pattern of denial, but why is EVERYONE else on the show stuck in the same pattern? I get that it would take people a while to come around to Damon after everything he did in the first season. The way most of the characters treat Damon, in reality actually makes perfect sense from their perspectives. What makes NO sense is the way people react to Stefan. They should feel the exact same way about Stefan as they do about Damon, if not even more aprehensive and untrusting. Stefan is the one who can't control himself, after all. Stefan is the one who is ACTUALLY dangerous. But no one ever calls him on anything, at all. And that's what makes me nervous. Because I can't help but worry that if the lies and the denial were on purpose, then how come NO ONE EVER SAYS ANYTHING??? It's like they are all under a spell that makes them see Stefan the way he WANTS to be seen. It drives me crazy. And after last season's finale, that better be the end of that. Seriously. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 27, 2014 9:10:52 GMT -5
I agree. The character of Stefan seems all but forgotten in the development department. We thought we were going to get somewhere with the ripper storyline. I was even looking forward to it so we could get to understand Stefan in a new way, but nope! That storyline fell flat and the bulk of season three was really about the development of Delena, moving beyond friendship and into love. I'm not sure if the writers have simply missed the fact that Stefan never changed, is never challenged, never grows as a character or they intentionally left him that way as the 'false hero' until they complete the rest of their story and we can have our 'aha!' moment that he was never the hero to begin with. Like I said, his character feels very much a peripheral character now, like a Matt or a Bonnie, not like a main character on the show. To me it shows that he isn't all that important to the overall theme of the show because if he was then during this time when Delena are the main couple he'd be getting heavily developed like Damon was when it was Stelena, but again, that's not happening.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 27, 2014 9:16:49 GMT -5
You know I've been thinking about what you said of TVD's writing. If you look over it as a whole, going back and rewatching the seasons, the writing comes off nothing short of brilliant. You see and witness these characters from the beginning come out of their own and become completely different people from season 1 to 5. Remembering there was a time where Bonnie was so against vampires, she didn't even want anything to do with Caroline. Though of course the most notable changes goes to Damon, followed by Elena. Watching earlier seasons and the things they did and said to hurt each other to season 5 and how willing they are to die and be there for each other. With that said, the one outlier in this equation is Stefan. As you said Doppel, we were made to believe Stefan was the hero, yet he did so many un-hero like things. Coming straight from the books from a Stefan who was TOO perfect in his ways to TV Stefan who almost came off antagonistic in his ways was such a drastic character overhaul. I liked Stefan for the first episode or so, but then they constantly made him lie, hide stuff, harp on Damon to the point he became unbearable. Now here's the kicker, Stefan's behavior would have been somewhat 'tolerable' if the characters around him didn't ignore it. This wouldn't make him much more likeable, but at least we would have characters addressing the fact instead of plain out not addressing things like the bridge incident or him and his ripper activities, all the while making it seem like Damon's still a worst vampire than he is. Having characters call out Stefan could have made way for him to actually change and develop like the others. Caroline, for instance, while her character hasn't been as good as her season 2 days, the old Caroline of season 1 was told how selfish/crazy/insecure she was. She wasn't given a free pass like Stefan on her behavior. Honestly Stefan's the only one who gets passes and from a writing standpoint, I don't see how a character like that was made to go on for so long. A main character even who is static and unchanging in his ways over several seasons. See that's my problem too. When we talk here about all of Stefan's psychological issues it all makes perfect sense. Saying that he can't face himself, so he believes his own lies as a mode of self preservation, and falls into the routine of "Good brother" and "Bad brother." And how Damon falls into the same habits by devaluing himself and giving Stefan all the credit. To us this is clear as day, and could even be well thought out in a certain light. But the fact that no one on the show ever addresses it, or calls him on anything, and no one ever even comments on it in fact, for me that's a huge problem. It's one thing to have Stefan and Damon stuck in a pattern of denial, but why is EVERYONE else on the show stuck in the same pattern? I get that it would take people a while to come around to Damon after everything he did in the first season. The way most of the characters treat Damon, in reality actually makes perfect sense from their perspectives. What makes NO sense is the way people react to Stefan. They should feel the exact same way about Stefan as they do about Damon, if not even more aprehensive and untrusting. Stefan is the one who can't control himself, after all. Stefan is the one who is ACTUALLY dangerous. But no one ever calls him on anything, at all. And that's what makes me nervous. Because I can't help but worry that if the lies and the denial were on purpose, then how come NO ONE EVER SAYS ANYTHING??? It's like they are all under a spell that makes them see Stefan the way he WANTS to be seen. It drives me crazy. And after last season's finale, that better be the end of that. Seriously. If you look back at season one you can see where Stefan laid the groundwork for the dynamic to continue with the people of Mystic Falls. He told everyone how awful Damon was and I remember making a list of all the horrible things he'd said about Damon back then and how he was on a smear campaign right from the beginning. Then we have Damon who doesn't give a crap what anyone thinks of him and is easily misunderstood and that's why people are stuck on the good brother/bad brother thing. They were TOLD that was the dynamic from the beginning and they never took the time to get to know Damon enough to discover anything different. All the good deeds Damon did he did mostly in the dark. (That's why Elena asked him why he wouldn't let people see the good in him.) Nobody ever knew and Stefan certainly never praised him for it so how would they really know? Even with all that they still always looked to Damon as their leader when things got bad so even though most of them would not say they think Damon is great, they do respect him at this point enough to leave the planning and well being of the town in his capable hands when push comes to shove.
I think now the only one who really has any significant problem with Damon is Caroline and that comes from their own history together. But again when she thought something was a problem with Stefan and Elena who did she call? Damon. In the end I think she protests too much. I think because she was attracted to Damon in the beginning and they did have a relationship for a while that her anger is more because she was rejected and mistreated than anything else. I also think it's a bit of the writers using her as a mouthpiece for Stelena to keep us guessing because there was a time that Caroline and Damon seemed to get along just fine in late season two and three, remember her talking to Elena about having feelings for Damon and how it made her human? There were no condemning words from her back then! It also has to do with Stefan and her growing attraction to him. She seemed more worried about Stefan's hurt than Elena's happiness recently.
As for the rest of them I think they aren't sure how to label Damon as a friend or foe. Admittedly he did some controversial things to a lot of them along the way and he'd let any of them die to save Elena's life so they know that to Damon they are insignificant. That's just the way it is, but yet he has saved all of their lives at one point or another. I think that things have changed somewhat in that department because didn't Matt kind of call him a sometimes friend or something like that? (I can't find the exact quote) He seemed confused and I thought that was kinda perfect for him to say. Bonnie doesn't have anything bad to say about him anymore either and she willingly took his hand at the end of last season so I think she does consider him a friend now. She of all of them was most aware of the ways Damon worked behind the scenes when he'd call on her for witchy help.
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Post by missmystic on Jun 27, 2014 9:55:28 GMT -5
It's all true, you're right. And I did feel like the finale was opening a new chapter in the character dynamics, and I feel like we're heading for a change that I'm looking forward to. I think I just really want the satisfaction of hearing people say out loud, so everyone can hear, that Stefan has done a lot of horrible things and have them acknowledge it. I'm fine if they move forward from that afterwards, I just want them to acknowledge it. I want people to have a conversation about having no more labels, and everyone can be on the same page, and then maybe Stefan can face his demons and actually start to grow as a person. I would really like to see him make some progress and start accepting himself as he is. Once he is able to accept himself, I think he will be able to start being honest with everyone, and see things the way they are, instead of how he wants them to be.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 27, 2014 10:23:05 GMT -5
It's all true, you're right. And I did feel like the finale was opening a new chapter in the character dynamics, and I feel like we're heading for a change that I'm looking forward to. I think I just really want the satisfaction of hearing people say out loud, so everyone can hear, that Stefan has done a lot of horrible things and have them acknowledge it. I'm fine if they move forward from that afterwards, I just want them to acknowledge it. I want people to have a conversation about having no more labels, and everyone can be on the same page, and then maybe Stefan can face his demons and actually start to grow as a person. I would really like to see him make some progress and start accepting himself as he is. Once he is able to accept himself, I think he will be able to start being honest with everyone, and see things the way they are, instead of how he wants them to be. I kind of doubt that's ever going to happen and I especially think that Stefan could not handle it if it did and that is the entire reason why Damon covered for him all this time.
The final nail for me in Stefan's 'hero' coffin was when he let Elena drown. Yes, he was literally doing what she asked him to do but was it what she really wanted? The conversation later with Damon reveals the truth because Damon knows Elena better than Stefan and maybe even better than herself. She had that conversation to prove to herself that her 'choice' had been the right one. Why did she have to do that? Because she knew it wasn't the right choice to choose Stefan in her heart, but still she wanted to prove it was by saying Damon would have ignored her wishes and saved her instead of Matt. The conversation reveals two things, one, what Elena really and truly wanted and two, that it had nothing to do with Damon but he would have saved her anyway. I really think that conversation was pivotal in Elena's turnaround on her 'choice,' that and remembering the compulsion and how Damon had selflessly let her go be with Stefan. He had no personal agenda in all three cases but wanted her to get what she wanted, first on the road as she waited for her parents, second when he compelled her to forget that he loved her and third when he would have saved her so she could have the life SHE WANTED:
"I would have saved you in a heartbeat. No question. You would have gotten to grow up and had the life that you wanted, the life that you deserved. And I know that I use to not get that, but I do now and I wanted that for you, Elena, and I would have gladly given it to you and let Matt die because I AM that selfish.” -Damon Salvatore
And there's another one of those contradictions. He calls himself selfish yet there is no Damon Salvatore in his reasoning for why he would have saved Elena. If she were human and grew up to have the life she wanted it would not have included him. It would have included marriage and children and growing old together, all things Damon could not be a part of.
I think it really hit her hard when she realized that and she looked at the other two situations as well and saw how he did them all for her, not for himself in any way.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 11:15:01 GMT -5
This is part of the reason why I'm looking forward to Steroline. As I don't hate Stefan's character, just his attitude when he's around Elena and Damon, going back into his mindset of Damon being chosen over him. He lashes out at Delena as if they made a personal vendetta against him.
When Stefan is around characters like Bekah, Klaus, Katherine and Caroline he becomes way more enjoyable as we see another side of him. There are things Stefan does and say that actually make me laugh, though sometimes that feels more like 'Paul' than Stefan but you get the idea lol
I'm not just shipping Steroline to get him out of the way of Delena, as it's hard to ship something when you don't like a character at all. And Caroline and Stefan as characters are enjoyable when it doesn't revolve around Delena, i.e. Caroline on Elena's back or Stefan all over Damon's.
Also it may seem like Caroline being with Stefan will be too much hero worship, and it won't help him grow at all, but a lot of their scenes have shown a more indepth side to Stefan that we didn't get with Elena.
When Caroline turned, Stefan was the one to help her through it. In short, Stefan, the person who loathed himself as a vampire and tried to pretend to be someone else, had to come out of his skin to help someone through a situation he himself was barely comfortable with. I don't want to get too much into the Steroline front as this isn't quite the right thread and I know must of you don't care for it, but there are other moments where Caroline addresses obvious things with Stefan, that we didn't get with Elena. Addressing how he's so serious all the time, getting him out of his comfort zone to dance and have fun, having conversations with him that he'll be able to find someone else and move on, helping him through his trauma with a risky method etc.
When Stefan was with Elena the two of them were stagnant together, almost pulling the other down, Elena helped Stefan to play pretend with himself and a lot of things were pushed under the rug. Things like last season with Caroline addressing her concern of how Stefan didn't trust her over Elena, despite him and Caroline being so close, is one of the reasons that I'm looking forward to with Steroline. The writers will not make the mistakes they did of Stelena and push things under the rug just so Stefan can keep his hero hair.
My only gripe with Steroline in season 4 up to mid season 5-ish was that the two were so focused on Delena which made the pair unlikeable, but when focused on solely each other and their relationship, it's refreshing from Stelena, and other Stefan relationships. I'm sure that gripe won't be much of a worry anymore anyways as the last half of the season both Caroline and Stefan have seem to come to accept Delena's relationship and I hope this development keeps on as season 6 premieres it's episodes. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jun 27, 2014 11:35:25 GMT -5
Well they'll probably get sucked into worrying if Elena will be alright for the beginning of the season at least and Caroline will wonder if Elena might orbit back to Stefan with Damon gone and probably get all angsty about that as well as about her growing attraction to him. I guess they do have to write about something other than Delena even if I could care less! lol I find it funny that they might happen given that Stefan told her it was never going to happen. How rude! But Caroline was already planning their June wedding in season one.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Aug 12, 2014 9:46:55 GMT -5
I'm seeing a whole bunch of drama today because Paul didn't win a Teen Choice award. Well, the people have spoken and it seems that most of them agree with me that he really isn't very different as a villain or as Stefan, so they can complain all they want, but obviously they are in the minority with the attitude that Paul is as good as they think he is. I feel almost sorry for him that his fans think by whining they will get him more awards. If he deserves them, he'll get more awards...end of story. They can't blame Ian and say it's his looks that win him awards cause what does that say about their idol, Paul, in the looks department? I think Paul is good looking, so that insults him when they make those claims. Nope, he has to be able to win on his own merit and he just falls flat on a lot of it. The bus stop scene with Silas was darn good...but for the most part, he seemed too much like Stefan on steroids and as a villain he didn't do it for me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 16:46:42 GMT -5
All the hate towards Elena about her behavior in the trailer and how creepy it is she's smelling Damon's shirt or that she's acting out are obviously bitter fans who are just angry that Elena isn't reacting like this over Stefan. Can you imagine if the shoe was on the other foot? These so called fans would actually be defending Elena and claiming how much Elena loves Stefan and that this is how she's choosing to cope so get over it or something lol
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Post by Charlotte on Oct 3, 2014 16:09:33 GMT -5
HaHa. The Stelenas/PWs are all mad at Stefan for answering Elena's call but being a douche to Caroline. Even they see what a dick he is.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 16:39:59 GMT -5
HaHa. The Stelenas/PWs are all mad at Stefan for answering Elena's call but being a douche to Caroline. Even they see what a dick he is. That's surprising lol. You'd think the SE's would be happy that he answered Elena but not Caroline since most of them are against Steroline and all that jazz lol |
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