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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 26, 2013 21:51:41 GMT -5
Basically, the arguments for Stelena were - Stefan loves Elena more than Damon does because Stefan’s love is epic and “always”
- Stefan would never hurt Elena just like Damon did
- Stefan is such a great guy, he’s so genuine and if he’s selfless it’s not because of Elena. “You don’t know what I look like when I’m not in love with you.”
In one sentence Stefan proved what we, Delena fans, have been saying all along - If Stefan was in love with Elena, how could his love could have come to an end just because Elena doesn’t love him anymore? We knew that Elena’s love was a condition for Stefan to love her = conditional love. So much for this “always”!
- Stefan doesn’t love Elena because if you really love somebody you don’t treat them like s*** just because they hurt your feelings. And 4x11 was one of the multiple times where Stefan turns his back on Elena just because HE is hurt. Yeah, everything has always been about him.
- Stefan has been pretending during his whole relationship with Elena. And now he’s showing to the whole world the real him. So are you gonna say that everything he did as a “genuine person” with a “pure heart” was selfless? Stefan reveals that everything he has been doing was just to look good in front of Elena… and to gain her love I would add Stefan’s everlasting love is so epic! |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 26, 2013 22:06:29 GMT -5
This from Tumblr, which we talked about in the other threads, If Stefan loved her and believed she was sire bonded, why is he being such a dick to her? If that's true love I don't want any of it and how quickly he fell out of this 'true love!' Stefan is convinced Elena only loves Damon because of the sire bond (which may or may not be real) and then makes her feel guilty about it, when if she was really sired IT WOULDN'T BE HER FAULT STEFAN. Stefan's "true love" for Elena disappears in just a matter of weeks because of the sire bond. Oh wow that really sounds like true love. If he ever truly loved Elena he would NOT be blaming things on her that are out of her control and instead trying to help her get through them.  AnonymousAf***INGMEN ANON. THIS x2395203523!! Which is why I believe that deep down, Stefan knows that Elena’s love for Damon and the fact that she wants to be with him is not because of the sire bond. He’s just being a dick and using it against the both of them.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 26, 2013 22:12:25 GMT -5
As if Stefan hadn't given me enough fuel over the seasons to despise him he just keeps doing it:
4x05: When Stefan failed Elena to protect Jeremy because of his own predetermined plan, Damon defended Stefan in front of Elena, and at the end he said: Everything he’s been doing he is been doing it for you.
4x11: When Damon failed to protect Jeremy because he was under a freaking compulsion, Stefan reminds Elena that Damon already killed Jeremy once, saying: No one is perfect, but my brother is just worse.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 26, 2013 22:31:07 GMT -5
This is really good and pretty much combines the stuff I have said over the seasons about Stelena and what it wrong with it, along with the latest happenings: Okay, so last night I got an ask that was essentially “after everything that Stefan and Elena have overcome, isn’t that a sign that they should be together?” Naturally, because I have a lot of feelings about fictional characters, especially Warrior Princesses like Elena Gilbert, my response got entirely out of hand and ended up being an incredibly long examination of why I think S/E is an incredibly dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship. To be fair, I was probably not the right person to answer this question because I am an Elena stan and therefore far more sympathetic to her than I am Stefan, but I’ll do my best to remain as unbiased as possible. This explanation got incredibly long, so I put it under a read more. You can choose to read it or not, but I do have to say it was incredibly cathartic to write. <!-- more --> I have never liked S/E. They had very little buildup in season 1 before they got together, and I was always deeply uncomfortable with the level of dishonesty in their relationship from the very beginning. Stefan essentially stalked Elena for months in the time between saving her from the car accident and meeting her at school. He learned everything he could about her, to prove to himself that she wasn’t Katherine, before deciding that he had to know her and therefore contriving to meet her in the hallway, show up at her house, etc. It was a very dishonest way to go about beginning a relationship with someone, and set up a power imbalance between Stefan and Elena where Stefan held all the cards, knew all sorts of things about Elena, while she knew nothing about him.
When Stefan and Elena did begin their relationship, Stefan was keeping numerous secrets from her that added even more dishonesty and deceit to their relationship (he was a vampire, she looked just like Katherine, he saved her the night of the accident, she was adopted, he was a Ripper with serious blood and control issues). What’s worse, in my opinion, is that Stefan didn’t come clean about the majority of these secrets: Elena found out he was a vampire on her own, she figured out she looked just like Katherine on her own (and after sleeping with Stefan, which is also incredibly dishonest on his part), and even after Stefan had a human blood relapse in season 1 he still didn’t tell Elena about his Ripper past. Stefan used the fact that he saved Elena and that she was adopted as emotional tools to distract Elena from being angry with him: he dropped the adoption bomb on Elena when she was (rightfully) angry with him for not telling her about the fact that she looked exactly like Katherine to make her stop being angry and to put the focus on something other than his lies and deceit. That is emotional manipulation, and it is certainly not healthy for a relationship.
Now sure, Stefan and Elena overcame their share of obstacles - his human blood relapse in season 1, Katherine forcing Stefan to break up with Elena in season 2, to name a couple - and I do think they did genuinely care about each other. However, in my opinion neither of them loved each other for healthy reasons. Elena was a teen-aged girl with serious abandonment issues after losing both of her parents in a tragic accident; she clung to Stefan because he was an immortal being who couldn’t die and therefore wouldn’t leave her. Stefan saw Elena as a symbol of the humanity he had lost; he thought if he clung to her humanity hard enough, he could be a “good” vampire while repressing the Ripper, which is a huge part of his identity. To me, that is not a healthy reason to be in a romantic relationship. If you do not truly know the person you are dating, it’s only going to lead to trouble.
The cracks in the S/E relationship began to show in the end of season 2 and the beginning of season 3. Sure, S/E was dealt a s***ty hand in those episodes, with Elena choosing to risk her life to break the curse and Stefan choosing to go with Klaus to save Damon. But those were choices each of them made freely, and choices have consequences. I know Stefan was compelled by Klaus to turn off his humanity a few episodes in to season 3, but even before that, he said some hurtful things to Elena. When she tried to rescue him in Chicago, he told her he didn’t want to be with her, that he wanted her to leave him and go. Did he mean them? Probably not, but that doesn’t mean they have less of an impact. When he had his humanity turned off, Stefan was even crueler to Elena: he called her pathetic, worthless, a human blood bag, and acted and talked as if he felt nothing for her. Again, he may not have meant them, but that doesn’t mean that they had any less of an impact on Elena. Words leave their mark, and some scars don’t fade away. Add to this that Elena was seeing Stefan as the Ripper for the first time, and I think she was struggling. Through all that, however, she remained true to Stefan, loving him regardless of what he said or did. On some levels that’s romantic and admirable; Elena’s steadfast loyalty is one of the many things I love and admire about her. On the other hand, such behavior could be construed as perpetuating a cycle of emotional abuse, and again that’s not healthy.
Once Klaus’s compulsion was lifted and Stefan’s humanity was returned to him, the reasons why Stefan and Elena shouldn’t be together became increasingly apparent. Instead of choosing to return to Elena, who was willing to take him back with open arms and an open heart, Stefan chose to seek revenge against Klaus. To that end, he physically and emotionally terrorized Elena by threatening to turn her into a vampire by driving her off of Wickery Bridge - the same bridge that had led to her parents’ death and the same bridge where she herself almost died. To me, this was a deal-breaker and really one of the defining moments of the S/E relationship. Here was Stefan, who still loved Elena, purposefully and cruelly inflicting pain upon Elena. Here was Elena, who still loved Stefan, being terrorized by the man she loved and being told that he didn’t care what she thought of him anymore. That is incredibly unhealthy and dysfunctional, and not at all how you treat someone you love.
Despite all that, Elena continued to try and reach Stefan and help him regain his humanity, while Stefan alternated between not caring about Elena and her safety, and becoming rabidly jealous of her growing relationship with Damon. It’s only after he learns that Elena kissed Damon that he really makes any attempt to get back in Elena’s good graces or to regain some semblance of his humanity. Not only is he once again pinning his humanity on whether or not Elena loves him, but feeling threatened by Elena’s quasi-romantic relationship with someone else while Stefan and Elena were broken up is both dysfunctional and incredibly immature. The “Elena is only allowed to be in a relationship with me” mentality is also controlling and unhealthy in its own right, as it shows that Stefan sees Elena as an object rather than a person, which is a theme that continues in season 4. In the latter part of season 3, Stefan takes great pains to try and revert back to his “old self.” He starts drinking animal blood again to show that he is back to being the “good Stefan” and uses Alaric’s death and Elena’s subsequent devastation at having lost yet another parental figure as an opportunity to reassert himself in Elena’s life. Again, this is extremely emotionally manipulative, and Stefan’s attempts to erase all that he did as the Ripper by simply pretending it never happened is incredibly unhealthy and very similar to how an addict behaves after a relapse. Stefan tries to rekindle his relationship with Elena without ever even apologizing to her for everything he put her through. By acting like “the Ripper” is completely separate from “Stefan” he is attempting to absolve himself of any responsibility for how deeply he hurt Elena. And Elena, because of her loyalty, is willing to accept this rationalization on Stefan’s part and agree to gloss over all the damage that has been done to her. That is not healthy for either of them as individuals, and it certainly is not healthy for any romantic relationship they might have.
Elena becoming a vampire really brought all the unhealthy and dysfunctional aspects of Stefan and Elena’s relationship to a head. Stefan could no longer look to Elena’s “humanity” as a beacon by which to control his own, and so he foisted all his insecurities about his own vampirism onto Elena. Stefan never learned control and moderation with respect to human blood, and so he became a Ripper. He was so worried about Elena becoming a vampire like him that he never gave her the opportunity to become her own vampire. Elena was under incredible pressure to not only adjust to her vampirism, but to adjust to it in a way that pleased her significant other. Stefan could only accept Elena as a vampire if she lived up to his expectations of how she should be as a vampire, and when Elena couldn’t or wouldn’t live up to those expectations, he saw her as a problem that needed to be fixed, hence all the “she’s not supposed to be this way” and “I have to fix this” statements he made. Remember, Stefan felt this way even before he and Elena broke up, before they learned of the potential sire bond. This was Stefan simply being unable to accept Elena if she could not meet the standards and expectations he had set forth, and if one of the two people in a relationship can’t accept their partner and the other feels like they have to meet these expectations in order to be loved and accepted, they should not be in a relationship with each other. I think it was this realization that primarily drove their breakup in 4x06. Yes, Elena’s feelings for Damon played a part, but I think the realization that their relationship was no longer healthy or functional also factored in.
Finally, nothing in Stefan and Elena’s interactions over the past few episodes indicate that they should be together. Elena, under compulsion from Rebekah to tell the truth, revealed that she felt that she made Stefan sad, that when he looked at her he saw a broken toy. That’s an incredibly heartbreaking feeling for Elena to have, and it really underscores just how dysfunctional their relationship had become. Elena felt that Stefan didn’t even see her as a person anymore, that he only saw something broken that needed to be fixed. That is not the foundation for any kind of romantic relationship. Elena also revealed that while she still loved Stefan, she was not in love with him anymore. That is a very mature stance for Elena to have after the breakup. She still cares very deeply for Stefan as a person; those feelings aren’t just going to disappear because they broke up. But she’s not in love with him anymore, which is a crucial distinction. You shouldn’t be in a romantic relationship with someone you no longer have romantic feelings for. It’s important to note that Elena didn’t intend or want to hurt Stefan with her words; she was being forced to be brutally honest.
Stefan’s response, however, is most telling. He asks Rebekah to erase every memory of Elena from his mind, essentially telling Elena that their entire relationship meant nothing to him, that he would rather forget they ever cared about and loved each other at all than live with the knowledge that Elena isn’t in love with him anymore. That is Stefan spitting in the face of everything he and Elena went through together, everything they ever meant to each other, and to me was the death knell of their relationship. Coupled with the purposefully cruel and vindictive way Stefan spoke to and about Elena last night, and there is nothing that can convince me that Stefan and Elena should be in a romantic relationship right now or at any point in the future. I hope that they can one day become friends, but I am convinced that they should never be in a romantic relationship again.
invisiblegirlhd.tumblr.com/post/41457172183/why-i-dont-ship-s-e-reasons-that-have-nothing-to-do
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 26, 2013 22:53:32 GMT -5
Yeah Stefan really respected Elena's choice to see Damon last episode didn't he? Oh wait! And who the hell is he to decide for her anyway? That's right nobody but her EX- boyfriend who she has no reason to listen to AT ALL anymore. Stefan is being the douche of the century and literally being a roadblock to Delena now and he needs to get the hell out of the way.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 27, 2013 1:52:35 GMT -5
Um Stefan was in Rebekah's room the next morning... Did he spend the night? I'm thinking he did because Klaus tells everyone about their little exploits!
SOOOOO who was watching Damon? I mean Elena could have went back and just let him out or Kol for that fact! The house isn't protected by anything!
But this might belong in the Anti Stefan thread! HAHA But wait I can make it about SE.... If he really cared about Elena he would have let her stay with Damon, not left because Elena could let Damon out and then he wouldn't have slept with Rebekah which to me is worse than sleeping with your brother.
I'd rather ANYONE sleep with my sister than with the girl who killed me! SORRY!
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 27, 2013 2:02:58 GMT -5
I know! The point was he didn't care about Jeremy and keeping him safe by watching Damon who he bled to the point that he can't even move. He cared about keeping them apart while he went and slept with someone else. It's pretty pathetic. I don't even care if he slept with Bekah. In fact, I'm glad he did because hopefully Elena will get how little she meant to him now.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 27, 2013 2:19:11 GMT -5
He thought she was sire bonded and he still did this to her? He may as well have handed Elena to his brother on a silver platter. Check mate, Stefan.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 27, 2013 2:31:40 GMT -5
You know I don't care he slept with Rebekah but I can see how Elena does. She just killed her and she turned all because of her. She is kinda the root to this whole issue that is season 4 so for Stefan to just say I'm sick of this and sleep with her is kinda crazy. And how quickly he got into a girls pants after hearing Damon and Elena slept together. And it wasn't even a girl he "loved". At least Elena loves Damon AND if she is sired to him which Stefan thinks then like you said it wasn't even her fault.
But the million dollar question is.... Is Stefan really not in love with Elena?
I'm going to start a debate thread because I want to see what people think. I know he is hurt and all and he said it out of anger. He only said it to stab her in the gut even though he wasn't compelled and she was.... but none the less he said it. And I have seen some SE's cheering him on and I'm like "if he doesn't love her and she doesn't love him there is no hope for your ship"!!! Who is going to fight if they both are no longer in love and why would you cheer him on? Don't you even want your ship together?
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Post by beangelic1000 on Jan 27, 2013 7:31:20 GMT -5
I'm not going to add anything further to this topic, because, everyone who has posted has pretty much said what I was going to say, what I will add though is there is a huge difference between the Anti-Stelena's and the Anti-Delena's, and that difference is the ability to reason.
When I first started watching TVD I was just going to enjoy the storylines as they progressed, but I found myself drawn to Damon, then Elena, then Stefan in that order, and I loved the chemistry whenever, Damon and Elena were anywhere near each other and they were not even a couple, but they were bonding. So I became a Delena by default. Even though Elena did things to upset me, I held no animosity towards her, because, I understood where she was coming from. Here was a 17 yr old High School girl having to process that her boyfriend was a vampire, and his brother who had been painted as this big bad vampire she was now becoming attracted too. In only few short months between meeting Stefan and his breaking up with her, she had to make some pretty major decisions and choices on how to protect herself and family and in some cases she had to make them on the spot, all Elena wanted to do was keep what was left of her family safe, and I found it hard to believe that this didn't compute with those who chose to bash her, when they understood why Stefan did the things he did. Although, Stefan died before he reached his 18th Birthday, he still has over 100 yearss living as a vampire to his advantage, he wil not age, but his life experiences age him. Elena has no such advantage, she lived 17yrs as a normal girl before either Damon or Stefan entered into her life, and since then everything has been helter selter. We have to remember that only a year has passed till then, so how can we hold an 18 yr old girl up to the most vile ridicule and abuse that I've ever come across (majority of it Selena fans) and then state how much we love the originals, Stefan, I wouldn't say Damon because the Selena fans are just as vile towards him as well, they forgive nothing he does, while singing Stefan's virtures and nothing he does is ever wrong.
The majoritiy of Delena fans, tend to defend more often then not, and when they do defend they always offer up what actually transpired on our screens during the different seasons as evidence, this is not the case with the Selena fans they take everything out of context to prove their cases disregarding everything else. The 1% of Delena fans that do take to bashing Stefan, or Elena are outnumbered by the 98% of Stelena fans bashing either Damon, Elena or both. That is why I'm so proud to be a Delena fan, we have never taken the moral high ground with Damon, he is what he is and even he gives no excuses.
That is why I also like The Originals, they like Damon make no apologies for what they are, everyone of them has a reason for acting the way they do, and if it means taking out innocent people in order to save the ones they want to save they will do so withoout thought. What I don't like is sometimes these ruthless vampires are used against a young 18 yr old girl to prove she is worse then they are when that sadly is not the case, that is what I object to.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 27, 2013 9:46:05 GMT -5
There's times I just hate Stefan with a burning passion after over 3 years of listening to him whine/manipulate/control Elena and Damon. I think Stelena is horrible for Elena. Look at how free she feels now? Free to say and do what she wants. It's almost ironic that if the sire bond is true, she's still more free now then she was with Stefan.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 27, 2013 9:49:01 GMT -5
The reason I stop arguing when I'm getting nowhere, Beangelic: Thomas Paine - "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." When I am up to it I try to use very well documented and thought out arguments but when you get back, "Stelena is epic," or "Damon killed Jeremy," or Damon ****d Elena!" Then it's time to pack it in cause I am wasting my time and my breath, and Good Lord, even Stefan used this argument with Elena about Jeremy. The guy who tried to kill her twice and then succeeded in letting her drown is going to try to take the moral high ground. How am I supposed to even like this guy? This pic cracked me up.   |
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Post by beangelic1000 on Jan 27, 2013 12:34:00 GMT -5
The reason I stop arguing when I'm getting nowhere, Beangelic: Thomas Paine - "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." When I am up to it I try to use very well documented and thought out arguments but when you get back, "Stelena is epic," or "Damon killed Jeremy," or Damon ****d Elena!" Then it's time to pack it in cause I am wasting my time and my breath, and Good Lord, even Stefan used this argument with Elena about Jeremy. The guy who tried to kill her twice and then succeeded in letting her drown is going to try to take the moral high ground. How am I supposed to even like this guy? This pic cracked me up. That is why I no longer answer their posts unless they take poetic licence with the content of of the episodes, or the sire bond issue. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 27, 2013 14:12:34 GMT -5
The SEs here are pretty well behaved and more logical then some I've run into so for the most part you can have a pretty decent conversation and understand each other at the end of it even if you will likely still not agree.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 27, 2013 14:58:05 GMT -5
I wish Elena had said, "Get out of the way, f***face," and shoved him out of her way. I wonder what dear old Steffy would have done then. Such an epic love..   |
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