|
|
Post by missmystic on Oct 9, 2014 9:24:06 GMT -5
Interesting. Yes I get what both of you are saying and I'm not going to put the book down for something that is historically accurate. I hate the idea of spanking for punishment. Now for pleasure.... Why not. But beating someone out of anger is not ok in my book. It will hurt to read it or see Jamie doing this but because of the time it's to be expected. And if Claire is upset I totally understand her view point. She is not a woman to be triffled with. She was a war nurse. She demands respect. So I'd totally understand her anger but most of all.... Humiliation. But I just hope they do it tastefully and don't linger on it for too long as if this is what jamie and Claire are about. Jamie is still young and he is still learning. He doesn't know how to give a woman what she wants just yet. Body? Yes but soul maybe not so much. Once he and Claire work it out it sounds like they come to a good place so as long as he knows next time... There won't be one and why, then I'm understanding. Especially when this was taken place at a time when punching your wife and giving her a bloody nose was ok! Geeeeee glad I didn't live in such a barbaric time but like I said it's understandable but I don't agree with it. I don't think any of us AGREE with it either. I would never WANT Jamie to beat Claire, and I don't think anyone else would either. Obviously from a modern woman's point of view, that kind of thing should never be ok. But this isn't a modern story. For me it's about truth, I guess is what it comes down to. It's about the truth of the story. The truth is that from Jamie's point of view, he had no choice. And the truth is that he is from a world where beating your wife is as common and acceptable as having sex with your wife. That isn't a good thing, but it's the truth. And it's the truth of his character that he would never have done it if he hadn't believed it was absolutely necessary. That makes him unusual for his environment. And he also promises her that he will NEVER do it again afterwards, which is also extremely unusual. It's also the truth of the story that this becomes a catalyst for character growth and change for both of them. There is a lot they have to overcome in order to build the incredible bond that they eventually build. And he does eventually understand exactly how bad it was from her point of view, and it really changes his perspective. Those are all the reasons I can say that it doesn't bother me. But I can also understand that for some women, it just isn't ok, period. |
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Oct 9, 2014 11:40:34 GMT -5
Well I admit it wasn't really necessary to the story and she poked the bees nest by putting it in there but it is fiction so I can't get too worked up about it. I wonder if she ever regrets putting it in the story.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sweetluv4DE on Oct 9, 2014 14:15:05 GMT -5
Interesting. Yes I get what both of you are saying and I'm not going to put the book down for something that is historically accurate. I hate the idea of spanking for punishment. Now for pleasure.... Why not. But beating someone out of anger is not ok in my book. It will hurt to read it or see Jamie doing this but because of the time it's to be expected. And if Claire is upset I totally understand her view point. She is not a woman to be triffled with. She was a war nurse. She demands respect. So I'd totally understand her anger but most of all.... Humiliation. But I just hope they do it tastefully and don't linger on it for too long as if this is what jamie and Claire are about. Jamie is still young and he is still learning. He doesn't know how to give a woman what she wants just yet. Body? Yes but soul maybe not so much. Once he and Claire work it out it sounds like they come to a good place so as long as he knows next time... There won't be one and why, then I'm understanding. Especially when this was taken place at a time when punching your wife and giving her a bloody nose was ok! Geeeeee glad I didn't live in such a barbaric time but like I said it's understandable but I don't agree with it. I don't think any of us AGREE with it either. I would never WANT Jamie to beat Claire, and I don't think anyone else would either. Obviously from a modern woman's point of view, that kind of thing should never be ok. But this isn't a modern story. For me it's about truth, I guess is what it comes down to. It's about the truth of the story. The truth is that from Jamie's point of view, he had no choice. And the truth is that he is from a world where beating your wife is as common and acceptable as having sex with your wife. That isn't a good thing, but it's the truth. And it's the truth of his character that he would never have done it if he hadn't believed it was absolutely necessary. That makes him unusual for his environment. And he also promises her that he will NEVER do it again afterwards, which is also extremely unusual. It's also the truth of the story that this becomes a catalyst for character growth and change for both of them. There is a lot they have to overcome in order to build the incredible bond that they eventually build. And he does eventually understand exactly how bad it was from her point of view, and it really changes his perspective. Those are all the reasons I can say that it doesn't bother me. But I can also understand that for some women, it just isn't ok, period. Oh I know none of you guys agree with it. I think we are all on the same page here. We don't like it but historically we understand it and don't fault Jamie as a character for it. I agree with everything everyone has said here in regards to the whole spanking situation. It sucks because I hate the idea of it but it's not going to make me put the book down because I also understand it from the historical standpoint. |
|
|
|
Post by Sweetluv4DE on Oct 9, 2014 14:21:39 GMT -5
As long as we are allowed spoilers here...can we talk about BJR and Wentworth? I don't know what is wrong with me but I really can't wait to see that. I think they'll do it like the wedding where it will Jamie telling Claire what happened. It is going to be brutal, not so much the actions of BJR but the aftermath and how it almost breaks Jamie entirely. I had a really hard time recovering from that read and I just said "no, no, no" over and over again. Ok so since we are talking spoilers..... Doppel this is what I thought you were talking about earlier so if you don't wanna know don't read on......... So in regards to Randall's punishment. All I read was that it was sexual abuse to Jamie. I haven't read the books but someone says he calls him was it Alexander? Some speculate it was his brother. That Randal was in love with his brother? Anyway so the sexual abuse is it Randal having sex with Jamie or does he make jamie do stuff to him? I need to be prepared when I read it. I'd rather know the ins and outs beforehand so I can process it then read it. And how Jamie endured all this for Claire is beyond me. Claire is a very strong heroine. I love her inside and out. She's way better than any fictional female I have read lately and I respect her soooo much. But a part of me is just waiting to see how she handles and processes what Jamie endured for her. Does she do it the way we all want her to? I have the book but I'd love to get the audio book. I wonder if iTunes has it. |
|
|
|
Post by missmystic on Oct 9, 2014 15:15:06 GMT -5
As long as we are allowed spoilers here...can we talk about BJR and Wentworth? I don't know what is wrong with me but I really can't wait to see that. I think they'll do it like the wedding where it will Jamie telling Claire what happened. It is going to be brutal, not so much the actions of BJR but the aftermath and how it almost breaks Jamie entirely. I had a really hard time recovering from that read and I just said "no, no, no" over and over again. Ok so since we are talking spoilers..... Doppel this is what I thought you were talking about earlier so if you don't wanna know don't read on......... So in regards to Randall's punishment. All I read was that it was sexual abuse to Jamie. I haven't read the books but someone says he calls him was it Alexander? Some speculate it was his brother. That Randal was in love with his brother? Anyway so the sexual abuse is it Randal having sex with Jamie or does he make jamie do stuff to him? I need to be prepared when I read it. I'd rather know the ins and outs beforehand so I can process it then read it. And how Jamie endured all this for Claire is beyond me. Claire is a very strong heroine. I love her inside and out. She's way better than any fictional female I have read lately and I respect her soooo much. But a part of me is just waiting to see how she handles and processes what Jamie endured for her. Does she do it the way we all want her to? I have the book but I'd love to get the audio book. I wonder if iTunes has it. So I have to admit it has been a really long time since I read the book, so the details are a little fuzzy. But here's how I remember it: BJR is in love with Jamie, or as close to love as he is capable of. It's really more like obsession. He is also a sadist (the author has mentioned in interviews that she sees him as an equal-opportunity sadist, so he isn't exclusively gay, but he IS obsessed with Jamie). I don't remember the Alexander thing you are talking about. That IS his brother's name, but as far as I remember there is no incestual feelings towards his brother. I'm pretty sure his brother is actually the only person he ever seems to show real respect or kindness for. But anyways, as far as what happens, yes Jack ****s and tortures Jamie. Repeatedly. There is all kinds of physical abuse, including broken bones and many other things. Jack is a very twisted man. It is pretty hard to live through. I can't imagine what it will feel like to actually see it happen. But I will say, for your peace of mind, Jamie will be ok, and Claire gets to be his champion for once! |
|
|
|
Post by Sweetluv4DE on Oct 9, 2014 15:52:27 GMT -5
Ok so since we are talking spoilers..... Doppel this is what I thought you were talking about earlier so if you don't wanna know don't read on......... So in regards to Randall's punishment. All I read was that it was sexual abuse to Jamie. I haven't read the books but someone says he calls him was it Alexander? Some speculate it was his brother. That Randal was in love with his brother? Anyway so the sexual abuse is it Randal having sex with Jamie or does he make jamie do stuff to him? I need to be prepared when I read it. I'd rather know the ins and outs beforehand so I can process it then read it. And how Jamie endured all this for Claire is beyond me. Claire is a very strong heroine. I love her inside and out. She's way better than any fictional female I have read lately and I respect her soooo much. But a part of me is just waiting to see how she handles and processes what Jamie endured for her. Does she do it the way we all want her to? I have the book but I'd love to get the audio book. I wonder if iTunes has it. So I have to admit it has been a really long time since I read the book, so the details are a little fuzzy. But here's how I remember it: BJR is in love with Jamie, or as close to love as he is capable of. It's really more like obsession. He is also a sadist (the author has mentioned in interviews that she sees him as an equal-opportunity sadist, so he isn't exclusively gay, but he IS obsessed with Jamie). I don't remember the Alexander thing you are talking about. That IS his brother's name, but as far as I remember there is no incestual feelings towards his brother. I'm pretty sure his brother is actually the only person he ever seems to show real respect or kindness for. But anyways, as far as what happens, yes Jack ****s and tortures Jamie. Repeatedly. There is all kinds of physical abuse, including broken bones and many other things. Jack is a very twisted man. It is pretty hard to live through. I can't imagine what it will feel like to actually see it happen. But I will say, for your peace of mind, Jamie will be ok, and Claire gets to be his champion for once! Ugh I'm gonna hate this part soooo much!!! Here check out this link: outlanderbookclub.freeforums.org/dia-bjr-who-is-his-alex-in-outlander-t711.htmlIt's a thread where they talk about Randall calling Hamie Alex while he's abusing him and who Diana meant for that??? I have a friend obsessed with outlander so I'm gonna ask her too what she thought. |
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Oct 9, 2014 16:04:35 GMT -5
Wow this book series is just full of surprises...that sounds like it will be hard to watch/read. The 100 lashes on a 100 lashes was awful...I thought I was watching the Passion of the Christ for a minute there...ugh
|
|
|
|
Post by Sweetluv4DE on Oct 9, 2014 16:21:10 GMT -5
Wow this book series is just full of surprises...that sounds like it will be hard to watch/read. The 100 lashes on a 100 lashes was awful...I thought I was watching the Passion of the Christ for a minute there...ugh Ya people say this is the hardest part of the books. Just the idea of it makes me quiver!!! |
|
|
|
Post by missmystic on Oct 9, 2014 16:22:20 GMT -5
Wow this book series is just full of surprises...that sounds like it will be hard to watch/read. The 100 lashes on a 100 lashes was awful...I thought I was watching the Passion of the Christ for a minute there...ugh I know right?? She has some seriously heavy stuff in there, these poor people go through so much! But there are so many wonderful moments that balance out the terrible ones. And the love story is just so powerful. But yeah, that stuff is going to be really brutal. Luckily it will be a while before we have to endure it, and there will be a lot of good and interesting stuff to enjoy before that happens. |
|
|
|
Post by missmystic on Oct 9, 2014 16:27:00 GMT -5
So I have to admit it has been a really long time since I read the book, so the details are a little fuzzy. But here's how I remember it: BJR is in love with Jamie, or as close to love as he is capable of. It's really more like obsession. He is also a sadist (the author has mentioned in interviews that she sees him as an equal-opportunity sadist, so he isn't exclusively gay, but he IS obsessed with Jamie). I don't remember the Alexander thing you are talking about. That IS his brother's name, but as far as I remember there is no incestual feelings towards his brother. I'm pretty sure his brother is actually the only person he ever seems to show real respect or kindness for. But anyways, as far as what happens, yes Jack ****s and tortures Jamie. Repeatedly. There is all kinds of physical abuse, including broken bones and many other things. Jack is a very twisted man. It is pretty hard to live through. I can't imagine what it will feel like to actually see it happen. But I will say, for your peace of mind, Jamie will be ok, and Claire gets to be his champion for once! Ugh I'm gonna hate this part soooo much!!! Here check out this link: outlanderbookclub.freeforums.org/dia-bjr-who-is-his-alex-in-outlander-t711.htmlIt's a thread where they talk about Randall calling Hamie Alex while he's abusing him and who Diana meant for that??? I have a friend obsessed with outlander so I'm gonna ask her too what she thought. It's also possible that I didn't really pick up on everything that was going on in those scenes when I first read them. For one thing, unless I'm mistaken, you don't really know anything about BJR's brother yet at that point, so it wouldn't have really registered. But Alexander is also Jamie's name, so it could be confusing because of that. As I said, the stuff that I remember between BJR and his brother didn't give me an impression of anything like that. But I might have just missed it. I was, honestly, way too young for a lot of the subject matter in these books when I first read them. There's probably a lot of stuff I didn't really understand. I guess we will see how the show handles it! |
|
|
|
Post by iansfan on Oct 9, 2014 17:13:17 GMT -5
BJR is one sick twisted f**k but he loves his brother Alex very much. I don't know if it's in a sexual way. Alex never seems to act as though it was and has kindness towards BJR.
BJR does call Jamie by Alex at some point during the Wentworth prison business and Jamie thinks it odd that he would call him by his second name. BJR is begging him to tell him that he loves him and calls him Alex. I've read to the end of the third book and nothing is mentioned of the incest.
What BJR does to Jamie is so .... not even sure I have the words. Sadistic yes, sexual yes. But I believe his major goal in all of it was to ruin Jamie for Claire forever. And it almost does. He uses a lot of mind games and wears Jamie down then assaults him sexually then makes him cry, hurts him physically then starts all over again. He talks to Jamie like he is Claire, touches him like he is Claire. The other thing Jamie has a real hard time with is that he was aroused. It is 50 Shades on crack. Afterwards when he finally gets out of there he is no longer the Jamie we know and love and it is up to Claire to help him but truly it seems like there is no way that will happen. I don't want to give too much away but suffice to say it is epic. I mean really epic not Stefan and Elena "epic". I've never felt so awful for a ficticious character before in my life. Brutal.
|
|
|
|
Post by missmystic on Oct 9, 2014 17:43:20 GMT -5
BJR is one sick twisted f**k but he loves his brother Alex very much. I don't know if it's in a sexual way. Alex never seems to act as though it was and has kindness towards BJR. BJR does call Jamie by Alex at some point during the Wentworth prison business and Jamie thinks it odd that he would call him by his second name. BJR is begging him to tell him that he loves him and calls him Alex. I've read to the end of the third book and nothing is mentioned of the incest. What BJR does to Jamie is so .... not even sure I have the words. Sadistic yes, sexual yes. But I believe his major goal in all of it was to ruin Jamie for Claire forever. And it almost does. He uses a lot of mind games and wears Jamie down then assaults him sexually then makes him cry, hurts him physically then starts all over again. He talks to Jamie like he is Claire, touches him like he is Claire. The other thing Jamie has a real hard time with is that he was aroused. It is 50 Shades on crack. Afterwards when he finally gets out of there he is no longer the Jamie we know and love and it is up to Claire to help him but truly it seems like there is no way that will happen. I don't want to give too much away but suffice to say it is epic. I mean really epic not Stefan and Elena "epic". I've never felt so awful for a ficticious character before in my life. Brutal. Oh man ... I really did forget a lot of the details of just how psychological the torture is. UCH ITS GOING TO BE SO HORRIBLE. I just have to hold onto the fact that Jamie is strong, and Claire is strong, and together they are stronger. |
|
|
|
Post by iansfan on Oct 9, 2014 17:48:30 GMT -5
That's so true. Miss. The only thing that got me through it was knowing there were 8 more books in the series and he couldn't possibly spend the rest of them this way.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sweetluv4DE on Oct 9, 2014 18:00:54 GMT -5
BJR is one sick twisted f**k but he loves his brother Alex very much. I don't know if it's in a sexual way. Alex never seems to act as though it was and has kindness towards BJR. BJR does call Jamie by Alex at some point during the Wentworth prison business and Jamie thinks it odd that he would call him by his second name. BJR is begging him to tell him that he loves him and calls him Alex. I've read to the end of the third book and nothing is mentioned of the incest. What BJR does to Jamie is so .... not even sure I have the words. Sadistic yes, sexual yes. But I believe his major goal in all of it was to ruin Jamie for Claire forever. And it almost does. He uses a lot of mind games and wears Jamie down then assaults him sexually then makes him cry, hurts him physically then starts all over again. He talks to Jamie like he is Claire, touches him like he is Claire. The other thing Jamie has a real hard time with is that he was aroused. It is 50 Shades on crack. Afterwards when he finally gets out of there he is no longer the Jamie we know and love and it is up to Claire to help him but truly it seems like there is no way that will happen. I don't want to give too much away but suffice to say it is epic. I mean really epic not Stefan and Elena "epic". I've never felt so awful for a ficticious character before in my life. Brutal. This whole post makes me wanna cry!!!!! I just don't think I'll be able to handle this! |
|
|
|
Post by iansfan on Oct 9, 2014 18:56:06 GMT -5
Oh Sweet, I feel you!
I think they handle it much like the wedding episode with Jamie telling Claire the story and we see it in flashbacks. Which is pretty much what was done in the book. Hearing Jamie tell it just seems worse and to hear it in his voice will be crushing.
They haven't held back in any of the more intense scenes, the wedding, the whipping, I can only imagine the same attention will be given to Jamie and BJR's time in Wentworth.
Perhaps it's best to be prepared. aye?
|
|
