The Anti Defan Thread

[Deleted]

I hate the Damon and Stefan 'bromance' relationship and find it really hilarious when people think Defan is endgame and are quick to say, 'Bros before hoes' or 'Family above all'.

If that were the case then Stefan and Damon would have been out of Elena's life a long time ago. They both know what happened with Katherine and now they're in the same situation again.

Stefan clearly knows that his brother is in love with Elena just as much as he is and it obviously hurts Damon to see them together and yet Stefan, is still in a relationship with Elena.

Let's see they don't understand each other. 4x02's 'memorial' segment speaks for itself. They're always fighting/arguing over everything (plans, methods of feeding, Bonnie's magic etc.) and they never agree with each other. As in it's always, 'I'm right you're wrong.' Then they each go their separate ways with Damon usually being right anyways. It's incredibly one sided.

I was wondering whether I should put a topic like this in the debate thread then I realized just thinking about the fail of this relationship gets me really angry and all I want to do is just vent about how much it sucks.

[Slash]

Put me in this camp. The extent of their relationship, aside from the blood/family tie, is that they'll argue with each other over anything to hell and back and they can't lose the other. Besides that, whatever brotherly aspect they try to parade in front of us, the viewer, amounts to nothing/is worthless.

Alaric, got Damon. They had their squabbles but Alaric was there when Damon needed help and vice versa. The 2 would go out to drink afterwards and Damon could actually talk about certain things with him, things he didn't talk to Stefan, his own brother about because their relationship is that bad. These 2 should know when they shouldn't poke each other during certain times and should actually be supportive but it's not there. This past episode with the telling Stefan about the Elena bloodsharing and Stefan punching Damon after being shot? Shouldn't have happened. Any of it.

I also agree that these 2 should have walked away from Elena a long time ago. Stefan was watching her for months and Damon came back for Katherine and it's just a sad series of events that lead to both of them being in town at the same time again and leading to falling in with Elena. If they had seen the writing on the wall and thought back enough to Katherine and what it did to both of them nearly 150 years ago, one of them would have bowed out of the pursuit.

I think part of the problem off all this though is I see Stefan and Elena as manipulative in the early going with wanting Damon to help/protect them and do things for them and I think they played on his brotherly/Katherine feelings to do that so in a way, they continued this on and built up an attachment for Damon to stick around or become emotionally attached. If Stefan being captured had still happened and Damon went to Alaric for help and they still bonded but Elena made no attempts to fall for him and didn't manipulate him like she was interested (the touches, the talks), hell, made it very clear that they're friends, nothing more and then Rose came along, I think as far as make up goes, they'd be better off.

Stefan would still be his brother but the fights would be less cause he wouldn't be pursuing Elena, Alaric would take up the 'Bro' role more permanently and Rose would have been his girl. I think with all this, 'Defan' would have been possible but I'm still disregarding the whole 'Stefan manipulating Damon to protect Elena' aspect. If Stefan didn't have the "Damon loves Elena" leg to stand on and Damon just did all this out of the goodness of his heart that these people were friends, I'd think that'd take the wind out of a lot of the arguments with them. I think Stefan may also be a key figure in getting the others to ease up on the Damon hate and Damon could just fit right in and feel like all around, he's in a place that loves and respects him as a 'person'. He'd have friends, a girl, a bro figure and a bro he wasn't fighting with over the same girl and I think people would also take his plans seriously the first time around instead of doubting him for Stefan. At the most, Stefan would add some input to Damon's plans and they'd adjust accordingly but none of this totally opposite plans they've had going.

This went on in a different direction but the 'Defan' relationship is horrible as it currently is due to Elena's involvement and I think it could have turned out better if Elena herself was more sure footed in making things apparent with Damon to get him to back off and not aggravate what little was left of the Salvatore family bond.

[Deleted]

Yeah I agree things are a mess with Elena's involvement as you said with the touches and mixed signals and most of their disagreements center around Elena.

Although to be fair Stefan and Damon came into Elena's life and not the other way around like with Kat. Also Kat purposely two timed the brothers where as Elena is trying to be faithful to Stefan. But even then my problem with Defan isn't Elena it's Stefan.

I know from the Delena angle we're always wondering why Elena doesn't defend Damon or disagree with her friends about how 'bad' Damon is but Stefan is his brother and he's usually the one leading that parade.

More so than Elena Stefan has also had those scenes with Damon where he's vulnerable and expresses/admits something and most of the time Stefan keeps quiet about it and doesn't tell Elena or anybody and still turns around and barks, 'Damon doesn't care/can't be trusted/shut off his humanity."

Also I agree with the consistency. I don't even pay attention to the Defan scenes as you know it's going to be undone by the next episode or so.

You had a really good Defan moment in season 3 when Damon told Stefan that Stefan was all he had and that he would help him with his blood problem and then what do you get. Stefan making a deal that whoever Elena chooses the other would just leave town. Obviously for Stefan Elena loving only him is more important than his bond with Damon. Of course Damon had to agree with it or he'd look like a jerk in comparison.

A real Defan moment would have been Stefan saying, "No matter who Elena chooses we'll always be there for each other." and they bump fists or something. Of course even if he said that I'd still roll my eyes cause I know it would just get undone anyways.

And I honestly don't know how people can't see how manipulative Stefan is in regards to Damon. He's always trash talking Damon and putting him down and I hate how Damon keeps quiet about it most of the time and come next episode it's like nothing happened and he's there for Stefan again. I can just think of so many quotes.

"There's nothing human left in Damon. No Good. No Kindness. No Love. Only a monster who must be stopped."

"All I can remember is hating you."

"You're better than him. You're better than both of us."

"You can be in love with Elena all you want if it means you'll protect her."

"I have the one thing you never will. Her respect."

"Why are you trying to save him? He's never going to change don't you see that?"

"You're not capable of trust."

This doesn't even scratch the surface and you can't even argue that oh well he said that in early season 1. Well he still said these things about his own brother which ended up being wrong and goes back to my point that the two of them don't really understand each other well.

[Doppelgänger]

I'm with you. This relationship is a fail and it comes from both sides, but I think Stefan is worse because even when Damon is trying to work with him he lashes out at him. I can't think of a time that Stefan gave Damon the benefit of the doubt or wanted to work with him. Even the lanterns ceremony seemed to be a dig to me. Some people said it was him forgiving Damon but I say it wasn't. It was him reminding him that he sucks in Stefan's eyes. He's still pissed off over Damon blood sharing with Elena so why would he suddenly want to forgive him for killing Lexie or Zach? No, it was him taking yet another shot at him in front of Elena to try to show his superiority.

[Doppelgänger]

Oh and Stefan did make it clear he was using Damon to do the dirty work a long time ago. Damon, being used to dirty work and cleaning up after his brother just went along with it. For this alone I have some serious hate for Stefan.


Case in point:

"You can be in love with Elena all you want IF IT MEANS you will PROTECT HER, but I have the one thing that you will never have, her respect."

So he was cool with knowing Damon loved her just so he didn't act on it or he'd come down on him like a hammer (punch him while he is down). Stefan shows all the traits of being a loser, big time.

Poor Damon was always delegated to scraps boy and clean up crew with his Dad and now with his brother who thinks he is far superior to Damon when he is nothing of the kind.

Hate him...ugh...talking about it just reminds me how much...

[Deleted]

Another problem with Defan is that some people want to have their cake and eat it too. As in oh I want a Stelena endgame with Defan or something.

I think if Defan is endgame at all (which it isn't as the premise of the show is based on a love triangle and will feel like a big troll at the end of the series) it would have to be Defan and that's it.

No Stelena or Delena. Or at least them with other girls besides Elena. People need to stop comparing Sam and Dean to Stefan and Damon because the situations are not the same. I don't watch Supernatural but I know enough of it that Sam and Dean are not in the middle of a triangle in love with the same girl and that it's more of a monster of the week thing where they are partners and depend on each other.

If Damon and Stefan were put into Sam and Dean's place in that type of scenario they would be awesome together and they can work together well going by what happened in Masquerade when they were taking down Kat.

If JP cared at all for Defan it would be getting at least half the development that they give to Delena but they don't. Stefan and Damon are always at odds and it's just a tiring action to have to witness each episode.

I also think that memorial scene wasn't about Stefan forgiving Damon or whatnot. It just seemed like a big heroic display that he put up in front of everybody to see and Damon walking off of course looked like the jerk but he doesn't handle loss well and at this point I think Stefan should know that.

What would have made that Dalaric moment even more awesome is if at the end of it Stefan, Elena, or even Jeremy just came to sit down with him. That could have been a really good Defan moment for Stefan to just come back and just sit there with his brother but of course Damon always grieves alone on this show.

[Slash]

That S3 moment near the end was just pointless to even include. Damon told Stefan that he's all he had at that point and the Writers swept it under the rug after that. Stefan was coming back down off the Ripper and did some horrible things to Elena and the gang and this would have been a perfect time to take Elena romantically out of the Brothers' lives while they got stuff together. Damon could have used the time to distance himself from Elena (since she was wanting him to screw up to make her decision easier) and Stefan could have used that time to reflect on what he did and to make amends (for stuff that seems nonexistent in their universe as the viewers are the only ones who know what happened -_-). This could have been a time for Elena to take some time to think about the Brothers without that weight and it would have been perfect for Damon to help Stefan get that control aspect down.

Didn't happen. None of it. Everything was rushed. Stefan gets 'control' again, Elena makes a choice, Damon is forced back into the same mess, etc..

I also agree about the Lantern scene. Stefan knows Damon wouldn't have gone for something like that so he calls up the entire gang to reflect on who they lost and Damon is the only one to walk away from it and I think that was a way for Stefan to continue what he's been doing: "Damon doesn't care. Look at him, he couldn't even spare 10 minutes to remember those we've lost with the rest of us. He thinks little of all of you." He threw salt in the wound by mentioning Alaric.

I'm not cool with Stefan's stance though earlier on. The "You can be in love with her" line. He stood there knowing full well what feelings his brother had for Elena and said nothing cause he needed Damon to dirty his hands so he could keep his own clean and his 'good guy' reputation intact.

Also agree with Anbu about 'Defan'. If that's to happen, Elena can't be a part of it. To have that, one of the Brothers would have to drop her entirely and that would mean either being alone or some other interest coming in and that Brother falling entirely for her with Elena being an afterthought/regulated to 'friend' status. You can't have the Brothers be on good terms/amend things with Elena still a factor in the way she is. Damon had his out with Rose but she's gone and this was before DE ever had an actual, official relationship going.

As for the Sam & Dean thing/comparison, I think part of the benefit here is that the Brothers don't hold any ill will towards each other and their tastes probably vary enough that interests don't overlap. They travel around a lot too so they don't become too attached and with all the friends/family they've lost, they see the bigger picture of "Sam/Dean is one of the last good things/constants left in my life and I'm not going to let a girl come between us. If we're in ______ and he wants to hook up with that girl I want to for the night before we leave, I'll step aside." They have a certain bond that's quite different from the Salvatore bond and I think the biggest factor is they didn't have a 'Katherine' and that they didn't become an immortal creature who's emotions got amplified at a horrible time (the whole Katherine thing).

Don't agree with the 'Dalaric' moment being better with Stefan, Elena or Jeremy coming by. Screw Stefan, and I'd scoff at the other 2 showing up and wanting to mourn with him given how he gets treated on a regular basis. Alaric was that parental figure for the Gilberts and for Damon her personal relationship with Alaric was different from that. Alaric was a friend he's never really had for quite some time and also allowed Damon to open up with someone who was a 'regular' for him that he couldn't/wouldn't do with his Brother. He had a "Ride or Die" connection with him. Damon was in trouble or needed help, Alaric asked him what he needed and dropped everything else to help. Alaric had just lost Jenna but Stefan called him up to tell him about Damon's Werewolf bite. Alaric was there to sit it out with Damon, whether he lived or died. Alaric asked Damon not to kill/do anything bad to Andie and Damon took that into consideration cause Alaric had asked. Stefan had only poked at him about that and others judged him on it.

Eh.

[Doppelgänger]

Stefan knew exactly what he was doing by inviting Damon to that and he knew Damon wouldn't want to do it. He's not innocent of the things he does to alienate Damon on an ongoing basis with the gang. The whole thing was staged because he was pissed off at Damon. He named two people Damon killed and a third that he knew would hurt him. Like really did Stefan care about Uncle Zach? No, he didn't. He barely knew the guy.

[pixiestyx]

I want no part of Defan.

Yes, Stefan stays in a relationship with Elena even though Damon in love with her but I don’t fault him for that at all. I don’t see why Stefan shouldn’t be with Elena just because Damon’s in love with her just as I don’t think Damon shouldn’t be with Elena just because Stefan is in love with her.

I don’t think it’s fair to lay the blame on Elena, though she certainly has complicated things. Their problems are more deeply rooted than that. The fact of the matter is that Stefan doesn’t understand Damon nor does he even try to. Damon, I think, tries to reach out or understand but Stefan usually has the “I’m the good brother mantra” and puts Damon down.

95% of my problems with Defan lie with Stefan. Even in S3 he’s still pulling the same crap that he has all along. I mean….

Stefan ‘betrays’ Damon and Elena and stops Damon from killing Klaus to protect Damon. Damon explains to Elena why Stefan did it though he could have kept quiet. Compare this to when Damon turned Abby. Stefan was supposed to do it but Damon does it instead to protect Stefan’s “image”. Stefan does not clear up this misconception.

Damon is kidnapped. Elena wants to drop everything to rescue Damon. Stefan says it’s not what Damon would want. Elena says what Damon wants and what they should do are two different things. In a totally OOC moment, Stefan doesn’t respect Elena’s choice/decision and Stefan carries on with his revenge plan. Even knowing that he brother was probably being tortured and Rebekah might just kill him.

Alaric was Damon’s true brother.

[Klovin'11]

I can't stand any more Defan this season and there has only been 2 episodes. I'm sick of it. I'd rather them just not have any interaction at all. It would make the show a bit more enjoyable for me if I didn't have to deal with Stefan and his condescending attitude towards Damon. He takes nothing Damon says into consideration.. he just uses him for this, that, or the other. And while Damon is not completely innocent, I think the bigger issue is Stefan.

[Doppelgänger]

He does worse than not take it into consideration. He purposely suggests the opposite of what Damon has suggested they should do. Then he leads the entire gang down the garden path to destruction. Stefan is the reason Elena is dead. Stefan has been the reason why practically everything goes to crap when nobody listens to Damon because Stefan undermines everything Damon says and makes him out to be a controlling or uncaring jerk.

As far as his relationship with Elena, I truly believe he's only with her now so Damon won't get her. He only turned around and started to act like he even cared about her after she said she kissed Damon. What the hell was that if not him trying to keep her from Damon?

[Deleted]

As of now the Stefan being with Elena while Damon loves her doesn't bother me (well it does cause I don't want Stefan with her) but I mean if from a Defan perspective if Stefan actually cared at all for his brother's feelings, knowing that they're in love with the same girl and that either one of them would be unhappy watching their brother with the girl they love, then why still be with her?

Again I'm talking from a Defan perspective of the situation. I don't see how any two brothers or any members of a family for that matter would put themselves in such a situation unless they really didn't give a crap. If you love them, why keep doing something that hurts them is what I'm getting at.

I agree with Doppel. I think Stefan is only with Elena because he doesn't want her with Damon. Elena loving him is more important than his bond with Damon. It's obvious in the way he takes advantage of situations and makes sure that he one ups Damon and trash talks him.

As for the Dalaric moment I agree that how it played out was well done. But I think at this point in time I'm tired of seeing Damon grieving by himself, and thinking about it from a Defan perspective, would it not make sense for Stefan to go after his brother after seeing him walk off like that? To check on him, to see what was wrong? Of course that's what you'd expect but the Defan relationship is sh*t so Stefan didn't.

It also goes back to Alaric's first death scene. While Damon was sitting and sharing his last moments with Alaric, Stefan was in the gym trying to win Elena over again.

Then there's 3x18 where Elena had to insist that they drop their plans to go after Damon and then when he did go to 'rescue' Damon it was more of a bargaining thing for his ongoing revenge and it was Bekah who let Damon go. Then after that we didn't even get a scene with Stefan checking on him at the end to make sure he was alright (Elena didn't check up on him either but this is about Defan).

For brothers Damon and Stefan don't understand each other well and I don't care if they ever do. This relationship is so flawed and stupid that I'm like Klovin and don't really want to see more of it.

[Slash]

I honestly haven't been in that situation where me and another family member were interested in the same girl (Brother is gay so that's not an issue and my group of friends is quite different from my cousins who are the next closest so there isn't any overlap to be an issue within those circles). However, if the situation did arise with a family member or even a best friend, I'd step aside if things were serious and the girl was showing interest between 2 of us. If things don't work out between the 2 of them and interest is still there, I'll see about it after they've run their course, not during and if not, I'll move along but ultimately, if friction would occur, I'd avoid even after. I don't think it's worth setting fire to a friendship or causing a rift with another family member. Just my .02 on it. What I'm seeing happen between the Salvatores is mind boggling.

Damon grieves by himself cause that's the way he wants it. And why would Stefan go after him? He set up that whole lantern thing just to put Damon on the spot. The only reason he'd go after Damon is to further bring him down or to boost himself up with the gang to show a "I care about my brother Damon" moment. I'd think worse of him if that was the case. Just do your little lantern memorial that you called everyone out for and let Damon be Damon. You'd be invading his time to grieve at Alaric's grave alone if you were just trying to win brownie points with everyone else. It's a game/popularity contest for Stefan and I don't want him stepping on Damon's 'personal' toes with that bulls***.

And you further drive the point home with Alaric's first death scene where he wasn't going to transition. Stefan went to score points with Elena while everyone else went to go deal with the loss in their own way. Damon stayed with Alaric in his final moments (as did Meredith) and Stefan went to go win Elena back. The f***? Kill yourself.

The Damon being tortured thing pissed me off on a level all it's own. Stefan was more concerned with his vengeance against Klaus instead of saving Damon (everyone didn't seem to care and after Elena mentioned it, that was it =\). They knew where he was but couldn't be bothered. Only after they realized that the Stakes were trouble for them did Stefan relent and pay a visit and even then, he couldn't be bothered to free Damon when he saw the condition he was in. He called out Klaus and they conducted a pissing match where Klaus got his chance to torture Damon. Bekah of all people had to stop things cause she knew that neither of the 2 would relent and Damon would be handless if it continued. She had her fun with him but nothing that was going to remain permanent (just wanted to make a point).

So yes, just stop giving us 'Defan' moments. Mix the Brothers up in any combination with any other characters in some 'Feel Good' moments but not each other. It's just forced and amounts to nothing before the episode even ends.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2012 19:06:35 GMT -5 Slash said:

I honestly haven't been in that situation where me and another family member were interested in the same girl (Brother is gay so that's not an issue and my group of friends is quite different from my cousins who are the next closest so there isn't any overlap to be an issue within those circles). However, if the situation did arise with a family member or even a best friend, I'd step aside if things were serious and the girl was showing interest between 2 of us. If things don't work out between the 2 of them and interest is still there, I'll see about it after they've run their course, not during and if not, I'll move along but ultimately, if friction would occur, I'd avoid even after. I don't think it's worth setting fire to a friendship or causing a rift with another family member. Just my .02 on it. What I'm seeing happen between the Salvatores is mind boggling.

Damon grieves by himself cause that's the way he wants it. And why would Stefan go after him? He set up that whole lantern thing just to put Damon on the spot. The only reason he'd go after Damon is to further bring him down or to boost himself up with the gang to show a "I care about my brother Damon" moment. I'd think worse of him if that was the case. Just do your little lantern memorial that you called everyone out for and let Damon be Damon. You'd be invading his time to grieve at Alaric's grave alone if you were just trying to win brownie points with everyone else. It's a game/popularity contest for Stefan and I don't want him stepping on Damon's 'personal' toes with that bulls***.

And you further drive the point home with Alaric's first death scene where he wasn't going to transition. Stefan went to score points with Elena while everyone else went to go deal with the loss in their own way. Damon stayed with Alaric in his final moments (as did Meredith) and Stefan went to go win Elena back. The f***? Kill yourself.

The Damon being tortured thing pissed me off on a level all it's own. Stefan was more concerned with his vengeance against Klaus instead of saving Damon (everyone didn't seem to care and after Elena mentioned it, that was it =\). They knew where he was but couldn't be bothered. Only after they realized that the Stakes were trouble for them did Stefan relent and pay a visit and even then, he couldn't be bothered to free Damon when he saw the condition he was in. He called out Klaus and they conducted a pissing match where Klaus got his chance to torture Damon. Bekah of all people had to stop things cause she knew that neither of the 2 would relent and Damon would be handless if it continued. She had her fun with him but nothing that was going to remain permanent (just wanted to make a point).

So yes, just stop giving us 'Defan' moments. Mix the Brothers up in any combination with any other characters in some 'Feel Good' moments but not each other. It's just forced and amounts to nothing before the episode even ends.

It seems like Stefan can't win

But that's another thing. Why does Damon like grieving alone? Why doesn't he find comfort with his brother? Why can't he talk to Stefan about things like this? Why aren't they as close as they can be? (We kind of know why but some things are still shady).

All the development with Defan up until this point has been a joke with all the inconsistency. As it's been said plenty of times, Alaric and Damon were more like brothers with Damon sharing things with him that he couldn't with Stefan.

[Slash]

Because Stefan uses it as ammo? He threw Damon under the bus before anyone got to really know him so why give Stefan ammo for later arguments to throw in his face when Damon told him that stuff to have someone to confide in or have Stefan blurt it out to someone else cause they're getting close with Damon? That's why Alaric was such a big part for him and 'easing' his character. He could talk to Alaric like a brother and not worry about him using it as ammo in a later conversation/argument. Damon took some shots at him when he was bitten (think it was about sleeping with/turning Isabel) and Alaric simply shrugged it off and joked that neither of them were drunk enough for the conversation (if I remember it correctly).

He's been on his own for most of his Vampire life I imagine as well with a few good run-ins with others and compound that with how he was treated as a human (daddy issues with Stefan getting all the praise), for his personal/emotional stuff, he's probably used to being on his own. Force of habit on his part at this point and I don't think he feels comfortable confiding in 'children' with his problems who don't understand him to begin with. Stefan doesn't care enough to understand Damon or not put his own BS ways aside to comfort his brother for a change. Alaric was an 'adult' he could talk to and understood him.

I'd think Elijah would be a 'mature' option for a replacement, the 'misunderstood' Klaus could probably get there after taking a hammer to his own wall but aside from them, I wouldn't even bother having anyone audition for the role of 'Alaric Replacement'. Any other role that would come close would be a 'companion' and Elena has a lot of growing up to do to even get there. Alaric & Damon was a perfect alignment of the stars that formed their bond and I don't see it happening again anytime soon. Maybe another 150 years of Damon's eternal life, he'll run into someone but he's on his own for now driving the minivan and carpooling the kids from soccer.