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Post by luvitornot on Jan 20, 2013 14:37:07 GMT -5
Yup and that's what makes him so hard for me to like. I think we have seen some signs he might be starting to realize things, like his speech to Caroline about Klaus, but I'm not sure if he was raising Klaus up to his level or actually realizing he's no better than Klaus. The jury is still out on that. But this should be a turning point and it would be if I was writing it. I'd have Stefan realize the things he's done that messed up SE and the things he's done in his own life to run away from his problems and start his redemption arc because he needs one and now would be a good time for it. I just doubt it will happen because they let this character sit there and never grow. It's like he's the constant, always the same. There is three things wrong with Stefan's speech to Caroline. Which was just a load of bull of I've ever seen it.  1. Stefan cannot put himself on the same level with the likes of Caroline/Tyler/Elena or whoever else he tried to relate to. These kids may have killed a person or two in their early vamp stages, or maybe in self defense of some kind, or maybe out of blood lust. But he has murdered villages of people, dismembered them and attempted to put them back together. For him to say "how are we any better than him" is beyond laughable. As he's equating his past crimes to those of these baby vamps as if his past is no worst then theirs. He feels like he's on the same level as them, which is ridiculous. 2. Funny how Stefan can understand Klaus but not his own brother, he'll sit down and try and rationalize Klaus's behavior and chalk it up to him not having family or friends or whatever, but he's never ever ever attempted to show Damon even an ounce of understanding. Instead he continues to conclude over and over again that Damon is the worst, who is undeserving of everything. 3. Stefan was trying to make himself feel better upon realizing how similar he and Klaus are. That's the same episode he found those letters from Klaus's victims and Klaus went on a whole spiel about why they memorialize their victims. In order to feel better about himself, he has to make Klaus "less bad." Basically a bunch of baloney dressed up as some kind of self-realization. Honestly this is the only joy I get outta of watching Stefan. I enjoy watching Stefan but not because I think he's this heroic, noble figure, it's because I think he's none of those things. His character is complex in my opinion, and interesting, but not at all likable. Well likable in the sense that I like to watch him, but not likable in the sense that I'd like him as a person if he were real. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 20, 2013 14:41:08 GMT -5
I don't even like watching him because I want to reach through the TV screen and strangle him. I think you're right on the Klaus speech and he DID put himself on the same level as these vamps who have barely ever killed anyone from the get go. Klaus was right in what he said to Stefan. They are very much the same when Stefan is being a Ripper and that is a part of him that he hasn't gotten free of. |
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Post by pixiestyx on Jan 20, 2013 15:12:52 GMT -5
The thing is, I don't think anyone is really denying that Stefan shouldn't feel hurt or upset. Like with his little temper tantrum with the chess pieces. Damon has had similar tantrums. What I find appalling is that he wants to erase the entire existence of Elena from his mind. That he was so eager to do so. And as Sweet said, that he so firmly believes in the sirebond and that Elena's feelings are not real, yet he still wanted to have her erased is disgusting.
As for Damon, I call him out on the crap that he does and when he lashes out but I forgive him because he owns up to his crap, learns from it and grows as a character. Even in S1 Damon says "my actions are mine; they belong to me". The reason I'm so hard on Stefan and unwilling to cut him any slack? He shows zero remorse, ownership or any growth for what he's done. Let's look at some parallel incidents?
JSNI
I was angry with Damon when he did this, though I understood where he was coming from. Still it was no excuse. But by the end of the next episode, Damon owned up for what he did, said that he got lucky with the ring and apologized Elena. Then spent most of S2 making it up to her, along with his own overall redemption arc
Stefan's revenge plot puts Jeremy in Danger
Stefan, now uncompelled and switch flipped off, blames Klaus for everything and only wants revenge. This puts Jeremy in harms way as Klaus' hybrid nearly runs Jeremy over with a car. Elena begs Stefan to let it go;he refuses. Jeremy is not his problem. Yes, Stefan is switched off and while he's not directly attacking Jeremy his actions put Jeremy in harms way. Stefan has never, ever apologized to Elena for his actions. Then put Jeremy in harms way again by saving Connor while Jeremy bled from a gunshot wound and the rather brutal way he forced Jeremy to finish the transition of the person he turned and then killing him.
Damon force feeds Elena his blood
Another action of Damon's that I hated and disagreed with. Though once more, I understood why he did it. But he knew almost instantly what he did was wrong. He told Alaric that he screwed up. Then spent the entire episode trying to fix the mistake, saving Caroline and Matt, getting bit by Tyler in the process and then finally offering himself as the vampire for sacrifice. And when he was dying he went to see Elena to say he was sorry and ask for her forgiveness. When she asked for for time he told her take all the time she needed even though he didn't have it
Stefan force feeds Elena his blood
When Damon fed Elena his blood, it was done as a means to ensure that she would survive, even if it was as a vampire. Stefan did this for revenge and revenge only. Not only that, she tried to drive her off the same bridge that Elena nearly died on and that her parents did die on. One of the worst traumatic experiences in her life and he's forcing her to re-live it. And is completely unmoved by her tears or when he says that he has no one she tells him, yet again, that he had her (and lbr, he had Damon as well since he and Elena had been working tirelessly to bring him back). Then he leaves her alone, crying on the bridge in the middle of the night! Yes, he was switched off but he's never properly apologized for. What did he say? "I went too far" What kind of lame, half assed apology is that??
I mean even look at when Stefan screwed them over and saved Klaus. What did Damon do? Told Elena why Stefan did it (to save Damon). Has Stefan ever fessed up to the fact that he was the one who was supposed to turn Abby and Damon only did it so that his halo would remain intact for Elena? Nope.
Until they actually start showing some character growth for Stefan and an actual redemptive arc (they had a perfect chance in S3 but didn't do it for some reason), I just don't care about his man pain and barely have any sympathy for him.
EDIT: Doppel, I said this last season too Stefan does not necessarily need to be free of the Ripper but he does need to accept that it is a apart of him and not some sort of Jeckyll and Hyde thing. Until he comes to terms with it he will always be on the verge of a Ripper spree.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 20, 2013 15:27:15 GMT -5
He's going to have to learn to live with his blood lust and thus he will tame the Ripper, is pretty much what I meant by that. The way he tears people apart is not normal and should not happen. It's because he never did learn to control the blood lust that it does. Damon has said it repeatedly and he should know. Stefan needs to be working on that and should have been already, not getting Caroline to chain him up when he goes off the deep end. What is anyone gonna do at that point? He is the one that needs to do it.
I liked all those points. It was very well laid out and not a surprise that show did all those parallels so we could see that the brothers are not all that different, just in how they deal with things.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 16:33:53 GMT -5
I guess this is just turning into a Anti-stefan thread because honestly if you are going to look at Stefan so much differently than you look at Damon than there is no point talking about Stefan's motivations if you really don't care. If no matter what it was from a selfish place (not my opinion) Not really going to validate any of this with a rebuttal.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 20, 2013 16:58:10 GMT -5
I guess this is just turning into a Anti-stefan thread because honestly if you are going to look at Stefan so much differently than you look at Damon than there is no point talking about Stefan's motivations if you really don't care. If no matter what it was from a selfish place (not my opinion) Not really going to validate any of this with a rebuttal. Hey it's like you completely skimmed over my comment! In my comment I owned Damon's actions! And I asked legit questions so I'm confused?  |
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Post by Slash on Jan 20, 2013 17:06:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to look at the "I hate my Brother" line =\
At first, while watching the episode, I was disgusted/slapped by the comment but thinking about it, couldn't it just simply be a way to get Bekah to actually partner up with him? I hate my Brother since you've heard all the crap that's been going on since you were away and you hate your Brother for daggering you x amount of times and disowning you, HELL, lets work together towards a common goal of screwing them both over cause they're more than likely working together towards the same goal. We can rub it in their faces when we're done and you know, we did use to be friends.
All a ruse to the same end goal as before with Klaus: the cure. I'm sure he hates Damon to an extent but not in the context that Bekah hates Klaus. It's just fuel/fronting to get her to see what he needs her to see/believe which is siblings allying against siblings.
Stefan knows Bekah wants in on the cure. What if all this is some grand plan to get Bekah to see he's at a low point and is willing to side with her/do anything to get that cure for Elena. Endure Bekah to his cause/side with him with the "Wipe my mind" and "I hate my Brother" comments? She saw how him and Elena were when they were captured and we were told that it would make Bekah appreciate what they had so her saying 'No' to his request and then hearing him out for why he wants the cure shows that she may care to some extent and Stefan knows that.
I'm out of left field here...
EDIT: Just realized that would mean someone else is using Bekah...again. What have I done!?
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Post by Ruby2579 on Jan 20, 2013 17:08:16 GMT -5
What were your questions sweet its alot of stuff to read back into haha
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 17:32:45 GMT -5
Thing is I have always called Damon on his crap! When he killed Jeremy I made no excuses. It pissed me off that the writers wrote that and instead of justifying his behavior I blatantly recognized that he can't do that! I love Elena and at the end of the day "their anger" affects her! So there was no justifying him trying to turn Jeremy. He didn't see the ring but he knew there was blood in his system and so out of anger he took it way too far!!! I also think it was wrong when he snapped alaric's neck! His anger sucks sometimes but it is who he is! It won't make me stop loving his character but I can sit here and say "hey Damon that was f-Ed" up and not be blinded by my love for his character. When Damon killed Jessica it was one of the realist moments for him. I wanted so badly after that beautiful scene for him to have let her go. But his anger was magnified and his vamperism win. He didn't like feeling and in the end he chose to turn it off in that moment and feed. Perfect case of humanity losing to their nature. Do I wish he didn't kill her then? Yes. I think after all that seeing her fear I think he was wrong in killing her. I won't justify his actions. I can sit here and understand why the writers decided to show those two different extreme sides to him. There are times when I will say flat out Damon that was dumb or Damon you didn't have to do that! When Damon fed Elena his blood to me that was wrong but I understood his actions and in his shoes I would have made the same decision because I know that if that person died I would never see them again. I'd take the consequences for my actions like he did. But in the end was the action of doing that to Elena wrong? Yes! Elena didn't want it! I just gave multiple cases where I called Damon out and did not justify his actions even though I understood why the actions had been written by the writers. Just bc you can understand someone's struggle doesn't make the actions justifiable! I am sorry it was a lot of other post to read and I just got frustrated with Stefan hate as I am sure if it was post after post of Damon hate you would feel the same. I appreciate you being candid about Damon and his faults, but the things is I can say those same things about Damon (the positive parts) which shows that I can see from Damon's side and Stefan's side. Granted I am more likely to take Stefan's side because I tend to agree more with his way of doing things. I get that they are different people. I get frustrated when some DE fans can do what you just did with Damon and not do the same with Stefan (see it from his side). He is not any more awful to Damon than Damon is to Stefan. He is no more prone to take the easy route as far as emotions and Elena is concerned than Damon. They both make rash decisions when they are rejected by her it seems. The rest is not towards your post but towards others.... Scenarios are different and to say that Stefan and Elena's relationship was not more intimate being that they were an actual couple ( I know you did not say this) is pretty much diminishing the relationship all together. I would say now that Damon and Elena being in a relationship means something or no would care if it meant nothing. So Stefan being in a relationship with Elena for 3 seasons (off and on) and losing happiness knowing what it was like to be happy and lose that is hard. I will say this again because I not think you are thinking about this, but this is not going to be DE until the end of the show. So that smile that Damon got when Elena told him she loved him. Imagine what will happen when or if that changes and she goes back to Stefan. That will hurt more because felt that happiness. He knows what he lost. It was not wrong for Stefan to want his memories gone just because it was hurtful to Elena, it would only be "wrong" because he shouldn't lose hope that she will love him like she had. I am not getting why that would be wrong because it hurt Elena? I am pretty sure Stefan is free to make decisions just like Elena and if Elena wants to be happy with Damon even though it hurts Stefan... I am pretty sure Stefan can choose to forget her even though it hurt her feelings. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 17:43:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to look at the "I hate my Brother" line =\ At first, while watching the episode, I was disgusted/slapped by the comment but thinking about it, couldn't it just simply be a way to get Bekah to actually partner up with him? I hate my Brother since you've heard all the crap that's been going on since you were away and you hate your Brother for daggering you x amount of times and disowning you, HELL, lets work together towards a common goal of screwing them both over cause they're more than likely working together towards the same goal. We can rub it in their faces when we're done and you know, we did use to be friends. All a ruse to the same end goal as before with Klaus: the cure. I'm sure he hates Damon to an extent but not in the context that Bekah hates Klaus. It's just fuel/fronting to get her to see what he needs her to see/believe which is siblings allying against siblings. Stefan knows Bekah wants in on the cure. What if all this is some grand plan to get Bekah to see he's at a low point and is willing to side with her/do anything to get that cure for Elena. Endure Bekah to his cause/side with him with the "Wipe my mind" and "I hate my Brother" comments? She saw how him and Elena were when they were captured and we were told that it would make Bekah appreciate what they had so her saying 'No' to his request and then hearing him out for why he wants the cure shows that she may care to some extent and Stefan knows that. I'm out of left field here... EDIT: Just realized that would mean someone else is using Bekah...again. What have I done!? Oh man it would be sad for Rebekah if this is the case BUT I really like the theory! Interesting spin. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 20, 2013 18:02:24 GMT -5
This is a debate thread so I don't expect we are all going to agree, but we can all say what we think and/or feel is going on. Our opinion, pretty much. I'm not sure what was so upsetting. Yes, most of us are not very fond of Stefan. I would like to be, but what I see doesn't make me happy and it doesn't even have to do with Damon. I don't like the way he behaves toward Elena either and just his overall personality type is not my kind of guy, but I still think he is redeemable. I know he tries to do good. I don't think he's entirely horrible, just to me, quite a bit horrible. |
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Post by luvitornot on Jan 20, 2013 18:05:02 GMT -5
It was not wrong for Stefan to want his memories gone just because it was hurtful to Elena, it would only be "wrong" because he shouldn't lose hope that she will love him like she had. I am not getting why that would be wrong because it hurt Elena? I am pretty sure Stefan is free to make decisions just like Elena and if Elena wants to be happy with Damon even though it hurts Stefan... I am pretty sure Stefan can choose to forget her even though it hurt her feelings. Yeah you're right that Stefan could do whatever he wants, but it's really cowardly and a slap in the face to the entire relationship. Elena falling out of love with him while it's hurtful is not something she set out to do to purposefully hurt him, and she's a stronger person than he is, because when it was painful for her she didn't choose to have her memories erased because she thought it was worth it. She thought he was worth it! And even though she may not feel the same about him, everything they shared still means something to her, she still loves him even if she may not be in love with him. I think you're ignoring what erasing his memory pretty much means. it means everything that he and Elena ever shared was meaningless if they're no longer together, it was all worthless and he rather not remember anything about her at all. If he can't have Elena in the present, he rather never had known her at all! That's beyond extreme, and you can see how little he values/valued her presence in his life. Not much, if all it takes for him to want to forget her forever is a break up. No one is arguing that he doesn't have the right to do what he wants, but it says something about him that he'd even consider that option. And it doesn't say good things. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 18:10:19 GMT -5
This is a debate thread so I don't expect we are all going to agree, but we can all say what we think and/or feel is going on. Our opinion, pretty much. I'm not sure what was so upsetting. Yes, most of us are not very fond of Stefan. I would like to be, but what I see doesn't make me happy and it doesn't even have to do with Damon. I don't like the way he behaves toward Elena either and just his overall personality type is not my kind of guy, but I still think he is redeemable. I know he tries to do good. I don't think he's entirely horrible, just to me, quite a bit horrible. I agree! but saying you want to strangle them when they are on screen is not really debating it is just hating imo (just one example) I admit I probably over reacted a bit  BUT seriously I love this board and all of you guys  , but it is not the easiest place debate for a Stefan and SE fan so I am sorry I lost my cool. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 18:17:54 GMT -5
It was not wrong for Stefan to want his memories gone just because it was hurtful to Elena, it would only be "wrong" because he shouldn't lose hope that she will love him like she had. I am not getting why that would be wrong because it hurt Elena? I am pretty sure Stefan is free to make decisions just like Elena and if Elena wants to be happy with Damon even though it hurts Stefan... I am pretty sure Stefan can choose to forget her even though it hurt her feelings. Yeah you're right that Stefan could do whatever he wants, but it's really cowardly and a slap in the face to the entire relationship. Elena falling out of love with him while it's hurtful is not something she set out to do to purposefully hurt him, and she's a stronger person than he is, because when it was painful for her she didn't choose to have her memories erased because she thought it was worth it. She thought he was worth it! And even though she may not feel the same about him, everything they shared still means something to her, she still loves him even if she may not be in love with him. I think you're ignoring what erasing his memory pretty much means. it means everything that he and Elena ever shared was meaningless if they're no longer together, it was all worthless and he rather not remember anything about her at all. If he can't have Elena in the present, he rather never had known her at all! That's beyond extreme, and you can see how little he values/valued her presence in his life. Not much, if all it takes for him to want to forget her forever is a break up. No one is arguing that he doesn't have the right to do what he wants, but it says something about him that he'd even consider that option. And it doesn't say good things. No I get it, but Stefan (from how I saw it) did not do that purposely to hurt Elena. It was because he was hurting and did not want to hurt like that forever and he heard what Bekah had to say and thought YES please I don't want this anymore. Yes it was extreme yes all in all a bad choice, but wrong? nope. I think by saying that even though we had this beautiful relationship and even though I chose you I still am not in love you anymore was truthful and painful just like hearing the truth about how Stefan felt from the aftermath of that was probably hurtful to Elena. They both hurt each other. No one was more hurtful then the other in my opinion. I get that is probably not a common one, but if I was Stefan I would probably feel that way. |
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 20, 2013 18:53:25 GMT -5
But it is wrong if he truly feels like the sire bond is affecting her feeling! Why erase your memory and punish Elena if you think she has no control over her actions? So is she or is she not sired? Are her feelings real? Why do something rash and hurt Elena if you truly believe her actions are strictly from the sure bond? Your done with her but you still want the cure. He is confusing me!
And personally I think erasing your mind of anyone or anything is wrong and cheap! As I pointed out earlier the movie the eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. It's just a pretty f-Ed up notion. Btw if Damon pulled this I'd be angrier than hell with him! I'd feel cheated as a DE that everything I went through with them he'd want to take the easy road and erase!
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