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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 17, 2015 18:13:09 GMT -5
I'll agree to disagree as I think it's one of those things you see it one way or other. He was selfless yes but he wasn't as good as you see it either as this scene to me that's showing he wants her to still love him and wants her to feel that when his brother is back. Thats selfish to me. BUT i can see others may feel different so it's ok  |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 17, 2015 18:16:13 GMT -5
Her friend who got over real fast the fact friend (bonnie)'s mother was killed by Damon. Or all her friends blamed poor matt for Elena been vampire, or tried to take everything Caroline wanted early on. ect.... Elena is not a good friend lol BUT stefan has been to caroline. Honestly I think the reason we all pretend Stefan is not a ripper is a) he controls it more now and b) we like him. It's like we like Damon and excuse the fact he killed Jeremy , Tyler's uncle , Bonnie's mother and way more. We like them so we excuse the bad. Like Klaus. He's a main character on a spin off in which we route for him! He's done horrible things but we like him lol Bonnie or her mother had to be killed. Blame the Originals for that. Stefan could have just as easily been the one to kill her and he was supposed to be but Damon did it to spare him the guilt, once again taking the blame on himself and instead of just outright killing her, he turned her, which was a better deal all around. I don't know how people seem to forget these details and how these things happened.
Nobody pretends that Damon is flawless in the show simply because he has come so far from where he began but Stefan remains blameless for no reason at all with some of those people. He IS a ripper and he does not control it well. He's gone off a couple times now in the span of just a few years. He is dangerous when he is the ripper and that is a part of him whether they want to ignore it or not.
Not it cut her off from been a witch something that while she may have not practised was a huge part of her. She was a mess after it as she had lost herself because of it. Killing her IMO would have been more humane. I think on show they ignore it as they got to know good stefan first. First time meeting damon he was the big bad. So to them its like ripper is NOT who they know and likewise when damon changes they expect big bad to reemerge. like RL if you meet someone then they become an addict you mentally say "they are not themselves" just like irl if someone is a dick to you when you first meet you always expect them to be a dick |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 17, 2015 18:22:04 GMT -5
I'll agree to disagree as I think it's one of those things you see it one way or other. He was selfless yes but he wasn't as good as you see it either as this scene to me that's showing he wants her to still love him and wants her to feel that when his brother is back. Thats selfish to me. BUT i can see others may feel different so it's ok Well that's one of my favorite scenes. What is wrong with Damon wanting her to remember the good times they had together when Stefan was gone and that Elena felt worried for him, because that is what they were talking about there, not love. She hadn't professed her love for him at that point. He had no idea she really loved him. He also defended Stefan to her AGAIN, just as I mentioned before and promised to bring him back to her. That's pretty selfless. If he was all about bagging Elena he wouldn't have done all that. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 17, 2015 18:26:13 GMT -5
Bonnie or her mother had to be killed. Blame the Originals for that. Stefan could have just as easily been the one to kill her and he was supposed to be but Damon did it to spare him the guilt, once again taking the blame on himself and instead of just outright killing her, he turned her, which was a better deal all around. I don't know how people seem to forget these details and how these things happened.
Nobody pretends that Damon is flawless in the show simply because he has come so far from where he began but Stefan remains blameless for no reason at all with some of those people. He IS a ripper and he does not control it well. He's gone off a couple times now in the span of just a few years. He is dangerous when he is the ripper and that is a part of him whether they want to ignore it or not.
Not it cut her off from been a witch something that while she may have not practised was a huge part of her. She was a mess after it as she had lost herself because of it. Killing her IMO would have been more humane. I think on show they ignore it as they got to know good stefan first. First time meeting damon he was the big bad. So to them its like ripper is NOT who they know and likewise when damon changes they expect big bad to reemerge. like RL if you meet someone then they become an addict you mentally say "they are not themselves" just like irl if someone is a dick to you when you first meet you always expect them to be a dick Well not me. My opinion of people evolves as I see who they really are. In this show and in some of the fandom that hasn't been the case at all. If it was they'd have seen the way that Damon has changed along the way and realize that there is a dark side to Stefan as well that is dangerous and murderous in the extreme and that is why he has to be extra vigilant lest he go off the rails. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 18:33:58 GMT -5
The whole 'stealing brother's girl' thing always came off as fan interpretation to me. When fans say things are this and that yet the chaacters in the show never speak of such events, its not show canon to me. Caroline, the biggest advocator of Stelena never once ranted off about how Damon stole Elena from Stefan and Stefan himself practically yelled at Elena to admit feelings for Damon then sent her on a roadtrip with him. He was pretty much shooting himself in the foot if he thought Elena was being stolen from him.
Me saying something like Caroline is a bad friend doesn't compare since there's show canon backing up this claim, Caroline mentions how she went overboard in her hate for Damon at their 'girls gathering thing' in season 4 and they hug it out. Caroline wouldn't apologize unless she was aware she was in te wrong and was indeed a bad friend in that moment. I'm on mobile right now but I'd gladly bring up that scene when I get on a laptop lol.
And this isn't me saying 'Omg Elena's never a bad friend!'. This example is about Caroline not always in the right all the time. She can screw up and make mistakes like any other character.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 17, 2015 18:38:16 GMT -5
The whole 'stealing brother's girl' thing always came off as fan interpretation to me. When fans say things are this and that yet the chaacters in the show never speak of such events, its not show canon to me. Caroline, the biggest advocator of Stelena never once ranted off about how Damon stole Elena from Stefan and Stefan himself practically yelled at Elena to admit feelings for Damon then sent her on a roadtrip with him. He was pretty much shooting himself in the foot if he thought Elena was being stolen from him. Me saying something like Caroline is a bad friend doesn't compare since there's show canon backing up this claim, Caroline mentions how she went overboard in her hate for Damon at their 'girls gathering thing' in season 4 and they hug it out. Caroline wouldn't apologize unless she was aware she was in te wrong and was indeed a bad friend in that moment. I'm on mobile right now but I'd gladly bring up that scene when I get on a laptop lol. Well I'm just glad Caroline has chilled on the Damon hate and I can kind of sort of begin to like her again. Getting over her screeching sirebond though DEs first sex scene will be hard though...lol That's the thing of it, the writers do this crap and make them be anti-Damon, anti-Delena, anti-Elena all the time and I hate that they do that because it tarnishes otherwise decent characters for me. This past episode it was Matt. If they want us to like the other characters maybe they shouldn't use them like that! |
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Post by missmystic on Apr 18, 2015 8:16:07 GMT -5
Bonnie or her mother had to be killed. Blame the Originals for that. Stefan could have just as easily been the one to kill her and he was supposed to be but Damon did it to spare him the guilt, once again taking the blame on himself and instead of just outright killing her, he turned her, which was a better deal all around. I don't know how people seem to forget these details and how these things happened.
Nobody pretends that Damon is flawless in the show simply because he has come so far from where he began but Stefan remains blameless for no reason at all with some of those people. He IS a ripper and he does not control it well. He's gone off a couple times now in the span of just a few years. He is dangerous when he is the ripper and that is a part of him whether they want to ignore it or not.
I think on show they ignore it as they got to know good stefan first. First time meeting damon he was the big bad. So to them its like ripper is NOT who they know and likewise when damon changes they expect big bad to reemerge. like RL if you meet someone then they become an addict you mentally say "they are not themselves" just like irl if someone is a dick to you when you first meet you always expect them to be a dick I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this. First of all, it was BOTH of the brother's idea to turn her, they discussed it and then drew straws. So Stefan is in no way innocent for that situation. And secondly, Bonnie's mother CHOSE to finish the transition instead of dying. That was her decision. She could have died if she really felt like that was better. But she didn't want to. She decided to become a vampire. Her choice. So nope, clearly she herself disagreed with you. Death was not better. |
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Post by missmystic on Apr 18, 2015 8:33:29 GMT -5
I'll agree to disagree as I think it's one of those things you see it one way or other. He was selfless yes but he wasn't as good as you see it either as this scene to me that's showing he wants her to still love him and wants her to feel that when his brother is back. Thats selfish to me. BUT i can see others may feel different so it's ok
There is context to all of this stuff that I feel like you are overlooking. Stefan kept telling Damon to leave him alone and that he didn't want to come back. Now sure, he was protecting them from Klaus by doing that, but Damon didn't know that! From his point of view Stefan was acting like he was willingly choosing to leave Elena and not be with her anymore. And there Damon was, standing by her side and doing everything he could to help and protect her. He felt frustrated. Wouldn't you? If you were in love with someone and they were in love with someone else, but that person seemed like they had moved on, wouldn't you feel like, "hey, I'm right here NOT leaving you, why are you choosing him instead?"
But even still, even though it seemed like a totally unfair situation from Damon's point of view, he STILL supported Stefan and kept defending him to Elena and telling her Stefan's reasons for things so she wouldn't be mad at him. He never said, "I'm better, love me instead." He never tried to use Stefan's flaws and bad deeds against Stefan. And he could have, he could have been like Caroline and pointed out all the horrible things Stefan has ever done to convince Elena to leave him. But he never did that. Stefan did though, and so did Caroline. They were both constantly telling everyone how terrible Damon was. But Damon never retaliated. He has always supported Stefan. And he never pushed Elena either.
2 times he kissed her without her permission. The first time (when it was actually Kat), was when he was still transitioning from having been the villain. And I don't think anyone has ever said that that was a great move on his part lol. And there was plenty of fall out for it. The second time was in the midst of Stefan being gone, at a time where, like I said before, Damon thought Stefan was just gone of his own free will and didn't want to be with Elena. And he thought that maybe Elena was starting to feel something for him, and he even said he was going to feel guilty for it. And besides those 2 moments, he never did anything else to try and sway her opinion. She made her own decisions. And so did Stefan.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 18, 2015 8:51:51 GMT -5
I'll agree to disagree as I think it's one of those things you see it one way or other. He was selfless yes but he wasn't as good as you see it either as this scene to me that's showing he wants her to still love him and wants her to feel that when his brother is back. Thats selfish to me. BUT i can see others may feel different so it's ok
There is context to all of this stuff that I feel like you are overlooking. Stefan kept telling Damon to leave him alone and that he didn't want to come back. Now sure, he was protecting them from Klaus by doing that, but Damon didn't know that! From his point of view Stefan was acting like he was willingly choosing to leave Elena and not be with her anymore. And there Damon was, standing by her side and doing everything he could to help and protect her. He felt frustrated. Wouldn't you? If you were in love with someone and they were in love with someone else, but that person seemed like they had moved on, wouldn't you feel like, "hey, I'm right here NOT leaving you, why are you choosing him instead?"
But even still, even though it seemed like a totally unfair situation from Damon's point of view, he STILL supported Stefan and kept defending him to Elena and telling her Stefan's reasons for things so she wouldn't be mad at him. He never said, "I'm better, love me instead." He never tried to use Stefan's flaws and bad deeds against Stefan. And he could have, he could have been like Caroline and pointed out all the horrible things Stefan has ever done to convince Elena to leave him. But he never did that. Stefan did though, and so did Caroline. They were both constantly telling everyone how terrible Damon was. But Damon never retaliated. He has always supported Stefan. And he never pushed Elena either.
2 times he kissed her without her permission. The first time (when it was actually Kat), was when he was still transitioning from having been the villain. And I don't think anyone has ever said that that was a great move on his part lol. And there was plenty of fall out for it. The second time was in the midst of Stefan being gone, at a time where, like I said before, Damon thought Stefan was just gone of his own free will and didn't want to be with Elena. And he thought that maybe Elena was starting to feel something for him, and he even said he was going to feel guilty for it. And besides those 2 moments, he never did anything else to try and sway her opinion. She made her own decisions. And so did Stefan.
Love this, although if we're being honest we have to include where he TRIED to kiss her, the time he tried to compel her to kiss him and got slapped and in 2x01 and the fiasco that followed that. I think he did learn from that experience though, and he was still in his 'I don't give a crap about people" phase at the time, only he realized from that experience that he did give a crap and losing her would be the worst thing that could happen to him. So of course early on it appeared that he was just out to get Stefan, because he pretty much said he was out to get Stefan...lol But as time went on his purpose changed. He genuinely fell in love with Elena and with that came his selfless actions as early as 2x08 where he told her that he loved her but he didn't deserve her and from then on he tried not to interfere with Stelena and in fact supported Stelena as well as he could despite loving Elena. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 18, 2015 16:14:15 GMT -5
Not it cut her off from been a witch something that while she may have not practised was a huge part of her. She was a mess after it as she had lost herself because of it. Killing her IMO would have been more humane.
I think on show they ignore it as they got to know good stefan first. First time meeting damon he was the big bad. So to them its like ripper is NOT who they know and likewise when damon changes they expect big bad to reemerge. like RL if you meet someone then they become an addict you mentally say "they are not themselves" just like irl if someone is a dick to you when you first meet you always expect them to be a dick I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this. First of all, it was BOTH of the brother's idea to turn her, they discussed it and then drew straws. So Stefan is in no way innocent for that situation. And secondly, Bonnie's mother CHOSE to finish the transition instead of dying. That was her decision. She could have died if she really felt like that was better. But she didn't want to. She decided to become a vampire. Her choice. So nope, clearly she herself disagreed with you. Death was not better. She wanted to live not die but had this situation forced up on her. As people on here always say it was "canon" as the showed her dealing it with it and hating it. Damon chose to swallow when Stefan forced him to turn however as he mentioned he didnt want it it was moment of weakness. We saw her deal with it on the show and as they said been a witch whos about the natural been super natural messes you up. I honestly think death was better for her. Sure she wanted to live as some part of it was to be with her daughter however the act of turning her felt horrible and they showed it as been bad I mean it's the first time after all the crap they do to her bonnie did not speak to the gang except caroline ( the fact they called her for a favour was ****ing bad friends imo) but it was shown and said to be a fate worse than death |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 18, 2015 16:21:48 GMT -5
There is context to all of this stuff that I feel like you are overlooking. Stefan kept telling Damon to leave him alone and that he didn't want to come back. Now sure, he was protecting them from Klaus by doing that, but Damon didn't know that! From his point of view Stefan was acting like he was willingly choosing to leave Elena and not be with her anymore. And there Damon was, standing by her side and doing everything he could to help and protect her. He felt frustrated. Wouldn't you? If you were in love with someone and they were in love with someone else, but that person seemed like they had moved on, wouldn't you feel like, "hey, I'm right here NOT leaving you, why are you choosing him instead?"
But even still, even though it seemed like a totally unfair situation from Damon's point of view, he STILL supported Stefan and kept defending him to Elena and telling her Stefan's reasons for things so she wouldn't be mad at him. He never said, "I'm better, love me instead." He never tried to use Stefan's flaws and bad deeds against Stefan. And he could have, he could have been like Caroline and pointed out all the horrible things Stefan has ever done to convince Elena to leave him. But he never did that. Stefan did though, and so did Caroline. They were both constantly telling everyone how terrible Damon was. But Damon never retaliated. He has always supported Stefan. And he never pushed Elena either.
2 times he kissed her without her permission. The first time (when it was actually Kat), was when he was still transitioning from having been the villain. And I don't think anyone has ever said that that was a great move on his part lol. And there was plenty of fall out for it. The second time was in the midst of Stefan being gone, at a time where, like I said before, Damon thought Stefan was just gone of his own free will and didn't want to be with Elena. And he thought that maybe Elena was starting to feel something for him, and he even said he was going to feel guilty for it. And besides those 2 moments, he never did anything else to try and sway her opinion. She made her own decisions. And so did Stefan.
Love this, although if we're being honest we have to include where he TRIED to kiss her, the time he tried to compel her to kiss him and got slapped and in 2x01 and the fiasco that followed that. I think he did learn from that experience though, and he was still in his 'I don't give a crap about people" phase at the time, only he realized from that experience that he did give a crap and losing her would be the worst thing that could happen to him. So of course early on it appeared that he was just out to get Stefan, because he pretty much said he was out to get Stefan...lol But as time went on his purpose changed. He genuinely fell in love with Elena and with that came his selfless actions as early as 2x08 where he told her that he loved her but he didn't deserve her and from then on he tried not to interfere with Stelena and in fact supported Stelena as well as he could despite loving Elena. See that's why it seems bad as it was "life time of misery" and from episode like or 2 he tried to get in her head even controlling her dreams with that bird thing .... Speaking of WHAT THE **** HAPPENED TO DAMONS BIRD AND ABILLITY TO FLY AND CONTROL MIST? ..... sorry just whenever i rewatch from season 1 that bugs me lol Like home many situations from season 2 to 6 could damon have avoided by flying! ......but yes I agree he grew to have real feelings that is not in doubt but I always saw it as he caused it by trying to hook up with her early to spite stefan for a) katherine b) making him turn or c) cause script said lol like he'd seem all genuine then still tell stefan he hates him ect... so its hard to see it for me as anything other than he set out to steal stefans girl , he may have had real feelings but did steal her anyway. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 19:46:40 GMT -5
Love this, although if we're being honest we have to include where he TRIED to kiss her, the time he tried to compel her to kiss him and got slapped and in 2x01 and the fiasco that followed that. I think he did learn from that experience though, and he was still in his 'I don't give a crap about people" phase at the time, only he realized from that experience that he did give a crap and losing her would be the worst thing that could happen to him. So of course early on it appeared that he was just out to get Stefan, because he pretty much said he was out to get Stefan...lol But as time went on his purpose changed. He genuinely fell in love with Elena and with that came his selfless actions as early as 2x08 where he told her that he loved her but he didn't deserve her and from then on he tried not to interfere with Stelena and in fact supported Stelena as well as he could despite loving Elena. See that's why it seems bad as it was "life time of misery" and from episode like or 2 he tried to get in her head even controlling her dreams with that bird thing .... Speaking of WHAT THE **** HAPPENED TO DAMONS BIRD AND ABILLITY TO FLY AND CONTROL MIST? ..... sorry just whenever i rewatch from season 1 that bugs me lol Like home many situations from season 2 to 6 could damon have avoided by flying! ......but yes I agree he grew to have real feelings that is not in doubt but I always saw it as he caused it by trying to hook up with her early to spite stefan for a) katherine b) making him turn or c) cause script said lol like he'd seem all genuine then still tell stefan he hates him ect... so its hard to see it for me as anything other than he set out to steal stefans girl , he may have had real feelings but did steal her anyway. JP tried adding the abilities from the books but thought show wise it was too cheesy/supernatural for what they were going for so they dropped it. Stefan could also fly in that first ep as well, he tackled Damon from several feet across the room in a horizontal position and out the window. It still gets a laugh out of me because of their arms flailing as they dropped down lol. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 19:55:31 GMT -5
I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this. First of all, it was BOTH of the brother's idea to turn her, they discussed it and then drew straws. So Stefan is in no way innocent for that situation. And secondly, Bonnie's mother CHOSE to finish the transition instead of dying. That was her decision. She could have died if she really felt like that was better. But she didn't want to. She decided to become a vampire. Her choice. So nope, clearly she herself disagreed with you. Death was not better. She wanted to live not die but had this situation forced up on her. As people on here always say it was "canon" as the showed her dealing it with it and hating it. Damon chose to swallow when Stefan forced him to turn however as he mentioned he didnt want it it was moment of weakness. We saw her deal with it on the show and as they said been a witch whos about the natural been super natural messes you up. I honestly think death was better for her. Sure she wanted to live as some part of it was to be with her daughter however the act of turning her felt horrible and they showed it as been bad I mean it's the first time after all the crap they do to her bonnie did not speak to the gang except caroline ( the fact they called her for a favour was ****ing bad friends imo) but it was shown and said to be a fate worse than death lol when I bring up show 'canon' in arguments I'm talking in regards to the absurd fan interpretations like 'OMG Elena is a homewrecker!' or 'Ugh Damon doesn't care about his brother Stefan! All he wants to do is sleep with Elena!' dumb things like that that's obviously said from people who hates the character/pairing. It's just not logical arguments that can be debated and is irrelevant in show context. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 18, 2015 21:45:23 GMT -5
See that's why it seems bad as it was "life time of misery" and from episode like or 2 he tried to get in her head even controlling her dreams with that bird thing .... Speaking of WHAT THE **** HAPPENED TO DAMONS BIRD AND ABILLITY TO FLY AND CONTROL MIST? ..... sorry just whenever i rewatch from season 1 that bugs me lol Like home many situations from season 2 to 6 could damon have avoided by flying! ......but yes I agree he grew to have real feelings that is not in doubt but I always saw it as he caused it by trying to hook up with her early to spite stefan for a) katherine b) making him turn or c) cause script said lol like he'd seem all genuine then still tell stefan he hates him ect... so its hard to see it for me as anything other than he set out to steal stefans girl , he may have had real feelings but did steal her anyway. JP tried adding the abilities from the books but thought show wise it was too cheesy/supernatural for what they were going for so they dropped it. Stefan could also fly in that first ep as well, he tackled Damon from several feet across the room in a horizontal position and out the window. It still gets a laugh out of me because of their arms flailing as they dropped down lol. Please that was not flying! that was falling .....with style LOL I had to, yeah Stefan flew too I guess I always saw his like a leap forward with speed so like a really powerful football tackle. But yeah i guess he did. It's weird it was dropped. I asked this on the other thread but was there an in universe reason? I'm guessing not though. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 18, 2015 21:49:05 GMT -5
Love this, although if we're being honest we have to include where he TRIED to kiss her, the time he tried to compel her to kiss him and got slapped and in 2x01 and the fiasco that followed that. I think he did learn from that experience though, and he was still in his 'I don't give a crap about people" phase at the time, only he realized from that experience that he did give a crap and losing her would be the worst thing that could happen to him. So of course early on it appeared that he was just out to get Stefan, because he pretty much said he was out to get Stefan...lol But as time went on his purpose changed. He genuinely fell in love with Elena and with that came his selfless actions as early as 2x08 where he told her that he loved her but he didn't deserve her and from then on he tried not to interfere with Stelena and in fact supported Stelena as well as he could despite loving Elena. See that's why it seems bad as it was "life time of misery" and from episode like or 2 he tried to get in her head even controlling her dreams with that bird thing .... Speaking of WHAT THE **** HAPPENED TO DAMONS BIRD AND ABILLITY TO FLY AND CONTROL MIST? ..... sorry just whenever i rewatch from season 1 that bugs me lol Like home many situations from season 2 to 6 could damon have avoided by flying! ......but yes I agree he grew to have real feelings that is not in doubt but I always saw it as he caused it by trying to hook up with her early to spite stefan for a) katherine b) making him turn or c) cause script said lol like he'd seem all genuine then still tell stefan he hates him ect... so its hard to see it for me as anything other than he set out to steal stefans girl , he may have had real feelings but did steal her anyway. Well it seems like perhaps you are missing the real conflict that Damon was feeling about all of it and I don't know how, when we saw it in 2x08 and his honesty about it with Elena amongst many other times. You can't get stuck on how Damon started out on the show or else what's the point of any progress being made if you are going to ignore it and only see how he was the first few episodes and keep saying he's the same guy? This is what I don't understand about anti-Damon people. Do you just fast forward through the Damon scenes or just plug your ears and cover your eyes when he is onscreen? Maybe you go get a snack...LOL I'm joking, but really I've had these same arguments with Stelena fans for 6 years now and we never get anywhere and the topic is ELENA and if she's changed, not Damon so we're way off topic now. I'm sure there's a Damon bashing thread somewhere in debates or anti-boards or you can make one if there isn't but now we need to get back on topic. |
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