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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 20, 2015 14:43:26 GMT -5
An example That'll be easy i could joke and say every episode from season 4 to 6 BUT lets go through some
Elena turns off humanity and tries to kill Caroline. Then when her humanity is back what does she do? She refuses to talk to caroline because it's too hard for ELENA. **** moment imo as Elena always tried to talk to people. She tried talking to Katherine in tomb , she tried reasoning with the originals but now it was hard for poor Elena she refuses to talk, lets forget the fact SHE TRIED TO KILL CAROLINE, thats something worth talking about. Ignoring your feelings is more a Damon responce not at ALL how Elena was. That imo is really telling as Elena now does NOT react as the old sweet kind Elena once did. If something is hard for Elena she ignores it.
Bonus example this season Damon is trying to save bonnie. Bonnie the girl that Elena claimed to care about and Elena's reaction? Oh damon must be doing this to get back with me, there is no way anyone would try to save Bonnie, thats silly every man does everything to get in my pants. Now some might say "oh she had memory wipe so wouldn't know damons changed" that is correct but skip back to season 2 shall we? When the only way to save loved ones was a deal she took it and acted in secret to the others. Why? because she cared more about her friends and loved ones than herself. Now? She makes it about her even when they go to help her she spent most of it talking about HERSELF "this was my home" "this is how I feel been been here" not once was it the speech about her best friend been alone her and how it might effect her. That's not Elena that's Elena as a prop to further the script. Ahhhh its ok right as they are teasing Delena? NO I want story and logic not ship teases. Elena been with Damon at the motel giving him looks and watching him drink was PERFECT for how she should react in situation. It furthered story and hurt nothing. This one? this was just ship bate that only blind fanboys/fangirls can excuse and defend and was NOT Elena
See the examples are there its in every episode as shes not reacting or responding as Elena now but as a plot device
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 20, 2015 17:52:00 GMT -5
Context is everything....and I think this tumblr post might cover several points quite well and frankly I don't really have the energy to try to fight all the anti-Elena rhetoric that is out there because that's what it is. If you hear something enough times you believe it, right? But if you really go back and look at the incidents and consider WHY Elena acted the way she did it makes more sense. Emotions are complex and people are complex and vampires that have turned off and then back on their emotions have to deal with the consequences of what they have done and they aren't all going to just be, "Oh, gee, sorry I tried to kill you, now let's go party," just like that, and how would that really help anything? In this detailed tumblr post we see Elena's conflict and her horror about the things she did while her emotions were off and how she dealt with it when she first turned them back on. I think we're going to see Caroline not handle things so well either when her switch gets flipped back on and that's the point. It isn't easy to deal with the things they do when they are emotionally shut off. Tumblr post, re Caroline: findmysoulasigohome.tumblr.com/post/58821320562/if-youre-looking-for-an-apology-youre-notAs for Bonnie, Elena was not in 1994 for her health. She went there to help get her best friend back, just because she commented that she didn't think Damon was there to get her best friend back doesn't mean she was making it about herself. From her position at the time she still saw Damon's actions as manipulations because all she remembered was when he behaved like that. Remember that she had asked him to help her get Bonnie back so in her mind he was there to help her, not the other way around and not so much to save Bonnie but because she asked him to. He did set her straight on that. I really don't even understand why people made such a big deal about this conversation they had WHILE they were trying to rescue Bonnie. Did people forget why she was there in the first place? |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 20, 2015 19:16:18 GMT -5
That's ok I guess people just see things differently
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Post by missmystic on Apr 21, 2015 8:51:11 GMT -5
Fantastic debate/discussion going on here, and like most of you, I have spent years having the same old arguments with SE fans and Elena haters, which are really DE/Damon haters. It is no coincidence to me that this uprising against Elena coincided with her commencing a relationship with Damon, shocker. See it's also the same time Kevin Williamson left. As he still helped plan season 3. As a child of the late 80's and 90's i have to say it's not unexpected. Look at dawsons creek Kevin Williamson left and the series was down hill fast. Joey/Pacey were still the best couple ever to come from it BUT the heart of the series was lost. Like Jack coming out the closet in Dawsons creek makes me cry everytime im not ashamed to admit. TVD Season 1+ 2+3 was soooo good. Stelena was not the reason I was cheering Delena but Kevin Williamson knows story telling. I mean compaire season 2 to season 5 and you have to see a difference Kevin Williamson was writing and Delena had stuff like the I love you compulsion and "I wanted it to be real" after road trip. He leaves and we get sire bond where every Delena scena was a)sex or b) is this real? .... thats boring. Season 6 Memory wipe! it's like Kevin Williamson made subtle things for them to overcome and real things. With out him they have to create and force big huge things to overcome which is lazy writing. When Kevin Williamson was around it was a show about characters in an super natural world. When he left it became Ships in a supernatural world. The characters became second to which ship #s they could make trend. So rest assured it is NOT the relationship with damon that has caused it to me it's just a horrible shame that Delena happened to happen with the exit of Kevin Williamson
I actually agree with this completely. Its one of those things that's always said about the art of writing: don't explain your characters to the audience, make their actions be the explanation. Show, don't tell. Just like the song from My Fair Lady  "Don't talk of stars glistening above, if you're in love show me! Haven't your arms longed for my touch? Don't say how much, show me!"
This has really been the biggest disappointment and heartbreak about the show for me. The reason I fell in love with this show wasn't because of Delena. Obviously I was completely swept away by Delena the moment Damon stood by her bed and gently touched her cheek for the first time. But I already loved the show by then, and that was because of the writing. I was blown away by the well crafted storytelling, the complex characters, and, honestly, with the female lead. I loved Elena's character. Because she wasn't just a goody goody nice girl. She had a little darkness, she understood loss, but she was compassionate and insightful and full of understanding. And she had honor. And those things were not explained to us in those first seasons, they were shown to us by the things she said and did. Most especially by her ability to see through Damon's evil act and realize the heart he was hiding within, when no one else did.
But the sad fact is, and I've had a hard time facing it because of how much I loved the show in the beginning, but the truth is that JP and CD are just bad writers. And the team they have working for them are obviously no better. Either that or they are all spineless idiots who are afraid to tell the boss when she's wrong. These people don't know the first thing about subtle storytelling, nor do they really seem to understand character progression or development.
So yeah, I do think Elena has changed. But not the way the haters say she has. During last season Anbu posted a scene from the season 2 finale, with Elena and everyone at Jenna's funeral, and she pointed out the difference in quality from that scene compared to what we were getting in season 5. The level of acting by Nina in that scene is beyond stellar. She was fantastic. So we all know what she is capable of, or at least was capable of. I don't know for sure if its just the writing that's the problem, or if it's Nina herself as well, but my instincts say that its both. I think when she and Ian broke up she lost her taste for the show and has been phoning it in ever since. But beyond her lack of A game, its the writing that has really changed Elena. But not on purpose. And you can see that that's the fact of the matter for the very reason that you mentioned earlier, that they keep telling us over and over how great Elena is. They have to keep saying that because they don't know how to write it, because they suck at subtlety. Elena's character changes were not on purpose. She hasn't changed as a result of the progression of the story, or because of Damon, or because she's a vampire. She changed because the writers are writing her terribly.
She is still a good person who tries to help people and cares about her friends. I don't agree with you that she is awful now and self centered and unkind. They give her the wrong lines all the time because they don't understand the subtle things those lines end up implying. I guarantee you that the scene in 1994 with Damon when she calls him out about being there for her was meant to convey how the memory wipe had affected her opinion of him, and that's all it was meant to imply. But because the writers are stupid and clearly terrible at their jobs, they didn't realize what ELSE that scene was saying. And yeah, it came off as self centered. But not because Elena is self centered.
Again, same with after she got her humanity back and couldn't bring herself to talk to Caroline. Another case of miscalculations by the writers. That was clearly meant to show the deep regret and horror Elena felt for her actions, but instead it made her look cowardly and selfish. A good writer would never have written her that way. If they had really meant her to have changed in that way there would be a lot more actions and dialog that discussed or conveyed the fact that Elena was becoming callus, or unsympathetic. There would be story that went along with the character changes. For example, Willow's character arc in season 6 of Buffy. Suddenly our beloved and sweet Willow was mouthing off to Giles, and controlling Tara, and putting Dawn in danger, things that were totally out of character for her. And under different circumstances the audience could have been like, wow she sucks now, what the hell happened? Except that Joss actually knows what he's doing, and the story explained her development. She had an addiction, she lost her way, she messed up. It was made clear by the storytelling.
But that's not what they've done here. Instead they write bad lines for her, and then try to fix it by telling us over and over how great she is. It's not the character that's changed, its the way they are writing her. Because they don't know what they are doing. Kevin Williamson leaving this show was the death notes of the song. He was obviously the only person on the creative team who really understands good storytelling. It's been one mistake after another since then. It's just really sad, and hard to admit. But it's the truth. At least it is in my opinion.
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Post by vampirelust on Apr 21, 2015 16:18:41 GMT -5
Exactly how I see it missmystic. I think you just explained what I was trying to say, but so much better. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 21, 2015 17:35:08 GMT -5
Well honestly people have hated Damon since day one because of Stelena and then when Delena came along suddenly they hated Elena, too, so I think it's just the way some people want to see it because they don't like how that all happened and they weren't really paying attention to all the nuances of DE approaching in earlier seasons because they didn't care, again, because they are Stelena fans. So for them Delena came out of the blue and either was a result of the sire bond (which believe it or not some Stelenas are still hanging on to)or she changed because of Damon or because of becoming a vampire when actually she just grew up and made up her mind to go for it with Damon whom she grew to love by 3x01. Yes the writing is bad, but people choose to see the worst case scenario in everything she says because they don't like her for the above reasons mostly. She's way less ambiguous now then she was in the earlier seasons when her standard line was, "I don't know what I want."
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 21, 2015 21:28:00 GMT -5
is it not possible for people to have loved Delena then hate how they were written? 3 years of build up to get Sire bonds , memory wipes and more plus since the break up they have no chemistry plus writing for me. It's like Star wars after all those years of waiting was Episode I worth it? Hell no. but you still love 4 5 6.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 21, 2015 22:10:00 GMT -5
is it not possible for people to have loved Delena then hate how they were written? 3 years of build up to get Sire bonds , memory wipes and more plus since the break up they have no chemistry plus writing for me. It's like Star wars after all those years of waiting was Episode I worth it? Hell no. but you still love 4 5 6. Well the writing is bad all around. Nobody is disputing that. I mean when you have all these characters being used to bad mouth Delena, even ones who weren't around to see Delena or know anything about Delena then the writing is bad, very bad. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 21, 2015 23:00:47 GMT -5
i can agree (for season 5) season 4 still had originals to save it (any time Klaus is on screen = win) and season 5 (at end) but 6 so far has done more. Though I though Silas was cool but was suddenly gone way to fast only to lead to that ****ing death of katherine ..... god i hated 5 but 4 + 6 so far have had some redeeming qualities. but yes overall its not on par with its prime.Season 3 was great and Damon been so happy to finally get the girl and toasting Alaric in shock was great one of the best scenes. (like number 2 , number 1 for me is still klaus killing Tylers mothers with christmas music lol only klaus can make christmas music bad ass)
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 22, 2015 8:02:51 GMT -5
i can agree (for season 5) season 4 still had originals to save it (any time Klaus is on screen = win) and season 5 (at end) but 6 so far has done more. Though I though Silas was cool but was suddenly gone way to fast only to lead to that ****ing death of katherine ..... god i hated 5 but 4 + 6 so far have had some redeeming qualities. but yes overall its not on par with its prime.Season 3 was great and Damon been so happy to finally get the girl and toasting Alaric in shock was great one of the best scenes. (like number 2 , number 1 for me is still klaus killing Tylers mothers with christmas music lol only klaus can make christmas music bad ass) That's just it, some of us are going to like one scene/interaction and some another. I notice the guys we've had on the boards always enjoyed the Originals a lot and the guy interaction along with one or two particular females and hated the rest of them... They also aren't usually very much into the romance aspect of the show whereas women are much more interested in that and the interactions between the characters so there's that to consider as well. Since the audience is primarily female they will cater more to what women want to see which are the ships/romances, human interactions. I am unusual in that although I love the romance (usually only one per show that I really get into, if any) I also love the action and hate it when the show gets too bogged down with drama and no action and that's where we are right now. I'm the kind of girl who would rather go to an action movie than a romance movie but if you can give me a little of both in one setting I'm thrilled! Which is why I loved this show so much and what I think is lacking now is the action, the adventure, the dire circumstances that this show is famous for. Sirebonds are stupid, erasing of emotions is stupid, gratuitous killing just for the heck of it is boring. I mean give us a real reason to feel worried about the characters we love. Give us a real threat and make it hard for them to prevail this time. It's really not that hard! So when they have to just keep writing these interactions between characters and drama drama drama angst, the show gets stale as hell. Maybe these witch/vamps will spice things up but I doubt it because they waited until so late in the season to haul them out. Chances are the gang will easily defeat them so they can get back to that ho hum drama...blah Or maybe they will kill Elena off since something like that is coming and then disappear like the plot devices they are. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 22, 2015 10:16:35 GMT -5
Yeah the romances made the show like the slow build up of Delena was great. Then they started doing things like Elena turning off Emotions yet was still jealous of Caroline been near Stefan .... WHY? YOU HAVE NO EMOTIONS YOU SHOULDN'T CARE! It's like I like as you mentioned Action like say the movie "The Avengers" But i dont like transformers movies as its actions and effects for the sake of it. I feel after a certain point TVD was not about the story and ship teases for the sake of it.
When do write like i said I cheered seeing Damon get the girl (i felt bad for him that it was always stefan and he was second) That build up was natural and intresting and kept me hooked. Then once together it's like they thought "meh Delena fans are stupid lets just give them forced odds" and they may have not been wrong as if you question it your instantly by some fans branded "Stelena" fans .... thats dumb as it's just you have a fault. Thats like "oh you dont like Star Wars Episode I the phantom menace? It cant be due to Jar Jar and bad writing nah, your just star trek fanboys!" lol
But the slow build up damon learning to change and fall for Elena = Interesting. Elena been Sired to him so Delena is both together yet keeping the Will they/wont they. i get the why. the Why makes sense on paper but on screen it's awkward and it's like "stop it! let them be together for a season with no forced odds to overcome.
Like this topic was about Elena was great but she seems worse now (as do others) as she is just a set piece designed to fit any story. I like the characters to be characters.
It's like I get why Caroline or Jeremy or Bonnie or Stefan may have hated damon season 2-4 as season 1 he was villain. But why dont they hate Tyler? He spent a good year or 2 been Klauses **** (wolf humour!) I feel Tyler ends up on the opposite side of the group like teaming with werewolves, Klaus , Hybrids , witch ect... so often that if i lived in TVD universe and a big bad started rising up i'd just kill Tyler now before he betrays me inevitably in like 2 weeks.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 22, 2015 10:41:31 GMT -5
Yeah the romances made the show like the slow build up of Delena was great. Then they started doing things like Elena turning off Emotions yet was still jealous of Caroline been near Stefan .... WHY? YOU HAVE NO EMOTIONS YOU SHOULDN'T CARE! It's like I like as you mentioned Action like say the movie "The Avengers" But i dont like transformers movies as its actions and effects for the sake of it. I feel after a certain point TVD was not about the story and ship teases for the sake of it. When do write like i said I cheered seeing Damon get the girl (i felt bad for him that it was always stefan and he was second) That build up was natural and intresting and kept me hooked. Then once together it's like they thought "meh Delena fans are stupid lets just give them forced odds" and they may have not been wrong as if you question it your instantly by some fans branded "Stelena" fans .... thats dumb as it's just you have a fault. Thats like "oh you dont like Star Wars Episode I the phantom menace? It cant be due to Jar Jar and bad writing nah, your just star trek fanboys!" lol But the slow build up damon learning to change and fall for Elena = Interesting. Elena been Sired to him so Delena is both together yet keeping the Will they/wont they. i get the why. the Why makes sense on paper but on screen it's awkward and it's like "stop it! let them be together for a season with no forced odds to overcome. Like this topic was about Elena was great but she seems worse now (as do others) as she is just a set piece designed to fit any story. I like the characters to be characters. It's like I get why Caroline or Jeremy or Bonnie or Stefan may have hated damon season 2-4 as season 1 he was villain. But why dont they hate Tyler? He spent a good year or 2 been Klauses **** (wolf humour!) I feel Tyler ends up on the opposite side of the group like teaming with werewolves, Klaus , Hybrids , witch ect... so often that if i lived in TVD universe and a big bad started rising up i'd just kill Tyler now before he betrays me inevitably in like 2 weeks. Oh don't get me started on the selective hate/love for characters. I do understand why they didn't like Damon in the beginning but I would think by now and after as many times as he has saved ALL their asses they would be able to see that he isn't all bad and stop ragging on him/about him to Elena. It makes them seem stupid that they don't see it or ungrateful for the times he saved them, like when he helped Caroline and got bitten by Tyler. At that point I think Caroline should have been thankful to him for that and maybe start shifting from hate to thinking, well, maybe he has some good points, at the least! But nope, gotta keep the hate coming for the sake of keeping the angst in Delena but as a Damon fan it makes me dislike a lot of the characters. I also think they should stop with acting like Stefan is some perfect guy when he is a ripper. He has issues and it's like they don't even acknowledge that and talk about how 'good' he is all the time. It's unrealistic and force feeding the fans to think a certain way about the characters and it doesn't work for me. I can think for myself and look at the characters as the flawed individuals they are, all of them. Nobody is all good and nobody is all bad. Caroline killed a dozen witches and nobody blinked an eye....that sort of thing is selective hate/love for certain characters. I think it has the opposite effect on me and makes me dislike those characters more because they get away with it and it's hypocritical to me when those same characters will rag on Damon like he's the worst thing ever. I would love it if Damon ever said, "Oh excuse me Caroline but did you not murder a dozen witches? Now who's bad?" or something similar to Stefan about the hundreds he dismembered in his lifetime. I mean get over yourselves, you sicken me with your hypocrisy! So that's how I see it when stuff like that happens and yes Elena has had her moments too, but they all have! |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 25, 2015 18:10:29 GMT -5
Stefans I can sorta of agree with though its more addiction like I don't blame Damon when he was ripper but I do think stefans should be adressed more yes. Caroline i disagree with. She killed them to save lives and didn't know them or really know they were linked. It's like i hate Katherine's death and I hate Elena however I don't blame Elena for it as it was self defence. I dont blame damon for killing mason as he was an enemy in his eyes. I blame for Bonnie's mother as they know Bonnie. I blame Elena for Kol as she planned and ploted to kill him (and thousands in his bloodline) I blame stefan for killing Damons "girlfriend" (quotes as compelled sex doll might be harsh) as it was to "send a message" hey stefan 2010s called we have e-mail now  Klaus killing tylers mother was great BUT i'd still blame him. I'm not sure if this makes sense lol Like I don't blame damon for any self defence or to save kills if he doesnt know victim. Killing Jeremy cause Elena hurt his feelings I think was 1000x worse than say Elena killing katherine in self defence during a fight. Like Damon trying to kill Kai (up to where I am in 6) makes sense as Kai was a threat. Stefan killing due to addiction he only really fully gave into to save damon or in past was addicted, I can forgive. Stefan walking her off a plank to show damon "dont **** with me" was bad That might just be my logic  |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 25, 2015 21:22:33 GMT -5
Stefans I can sorta of agree with though its more addiction like I don't blame Damon when he was ripper but I do think stefans should be adressed more yes. Caroline i disagree with. She killed them to save lives and didn't know them or really know they were linked. It's like i hate Katherine's death and I hate Elena however I don't blame Elena for it as it was self defence. I dont blame damon for killing mason as he was an enemy in his eyes. I blame for Bonnie's mother as they know Bonnie. I blame Elena for Kol as she planned and ploted to kill him (and thousands in his bloodline) I blame stefan for killing Damons "girlfriend" (quotes as compelled sex doll might be harsh) as it was to "send a message" hey stefan 2010s called we have e-mail now Klaus killing tylers mother was great BUT i'd still blame him. I'm not sure if this makes sense lol Like I don't blame damon for any self defence or to save kills if he doesnt know victim. Killing Jeremy cause Elena hurt his feelings I think was 1000x worse than say Elena killing katherine in self defence during a fight. Like Damon trying to kill Kai (up to where I am in 6) makes sense as Kai was a threat. Stefan killing due to addiction he only really fully gave into to save damon or in past was addicted, I can forgive. Stefan walking her off a plank to show damon "dont **** with me" was bad That might just be my logic No it's pretty good logic overall but that was my point really, is that they have all killed for one reason or another. Elena got slammed for killing whatever his name was the vamp eater when he attacked Damon. Well Damon was in danger right? So by that rule it is less of a crime. Kol was coming after the Gilberts to kill them so he was a threat. Bonnie's Mom was a kill neither brother wanted to do but were forced to do by The Originals so to me that is not so bad either in the end as they had no time and no choices. They chose the lesser of the evils. I don't consider an addiction an excuse for murder, though, just as in the real world if you drink, drive and kill someone you are going to jail. Being an addict doesn't give you a 'get out of jail free card.' Stefan is responsible for those deaths and just as guilty as any of the rest of them who have killed, for doing it.
The point of all of this for me is that they are all guilty. I don't pick and choose who to hate for killing in this show because they've all done it and if I let one do it without thinking they deserve consequences then I have to let them all do it without consequences and that's sort of how I look at it frankly. I don't really get all bent out of shape about the killing because they are all guilty of it and it's to be expected in a vampire show. If not, you're watching the wrong genre of TV show. But I don't like it when people pick and choose who to accuse of being horrible and who is 'good' when none of them are. There are no 'good' vampires. They are all killers and people should just get over it when *shock* they kill someone but don't tell me one is better than the other based upon some warped idea that murder this way is better than that way. It's all bad. Some ways may be easier to forgive sooner. That's about the only difference for me.
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 25, 2015 22:15:25 GMT -5
Fair Enough I can see that my point was to me some are more ethical with their killing but all did do bad too |
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"Don't talk of stars glistening above, if you're in love show me! Haven't your arms longed for my touch? Don't say how much, show me!"
Klaus killing tylers mother was great BUT i'd still blame him. I'm not sure if this makes sense lol 
