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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 18, 2015 21:52:41 GMT -5
JP tried adding the abilities from the books but thought show wise it was too cheesy/supernatural for what they were going for so they dropped it. Stefan could also fly in that first ep as well, he tackled Damon from several feet across the room in a horizontal position and out the window. It still gets a laugh out of me because of their arms flailing as they dropped down lol. Please that was not flying! that was falling .....with style LOL I had to, yeah Stefan flew too I guess I always saw his like a leap forward with speed so like a really powerful football tackle. But yeah i guess he did. It's weird it was dropped. I asked this on the other thread but was there an in universe reason? I'm guessing not though. In universe Damon ate/drank the blood of the bird after he got out of the dungeon Stefan trapped him in so that he would have enough energy to escape. There are it's feathery remains on the floor in the episode and a joke later on from Damon about not wanting to eat anything with feathers. As for the jumps, they can still do them I believe. They just haven't in a while. We just saw Damon move lightning fast to keep Elena out of his panty drawer, so there's still that. In the books Damon had tons more cool abilities, but oh well, if the show wants to be mundane what can we do? |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 19, 2015 0:51:26 GMT -5
See that's why it seems bad as it was "life time of misery" and from episode like or 2 he tried to get in her head even controlling her dreams with that bird thing .... Speaking of WHAT THE **** HAPPENED TO DAMONS BIRD AND ABILLITY TO FLY AND CONTROL MIST? ..... sorry just whenever i rewatch from season 1 that bugs me lol Like home many situations from season 2 to 6 could damon have avoided by flying! ......but yes I agree he grew to have real feelings that is not in doubt but I always saw it as he caused it by trying to hook up with her early to spite stefan for a) katherine b) making him turn or c) cause script said lol like he'd seem all genuine then still tell stefan he hates him ect... so its hard to see it for me as anything other than he set out to steal stefans girl , he may have had real feelings but did steal her anyway. Well it seems like perhaps you are missing the real conflict that Damon was feeling about all of it and I don't know how, when we saw it in 2x08 and his honesty about it with Elena amongst many other times. You can't get stuck on how Damon started out on the show or else what's the point of any progress being made if you are going to ignore it and only see how he was the first few episodes and keep saying he's the same guy? This is what I don't understand about anti-Damon people. Do you just fast forward through the Damon scenes or just plug your ears and cover your eyes when he is onscreen? Maybe you go get a snack...LOL I'm joking, but really I've had these same arguments with Stelena fans for 6 years now and we never get anywhere and the topic is ELENA and if she's changed, not Damon so we're way off topic now. I'm sure there's a Damon bashing thread somewhere in debates or anti-boards or you can make one if there isn't but now we need to get back on topic. I'm not Anti-Damon! I have said before now hes my one of my favourite characters! I'm just saying he's not always consistent 2x08 he may seem he's changed (and had) but then after it he'll still alk about and act like he hated stefan at times so it was hard to see if his intentions were always pure. But yeah the topic was Elena and if she's changed but it's equally tied to Damon as she really changed season 4 to me because the writing her for her was so all over the place not because of Delena not cause shes a vampire just odd. like season 1 to 3 I felt for Elena. season 4 + I wanted the character to just die or become her old-self. I just feel they right less scenes where i can feel sympathy for her. Even when Damon died my thought is "Why did he and Bonnie die and Elena live!" |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 8:55:17 GMT -5
Season 1-3 is always going to feel like the better season overall for better written characters than in season 4-6. Especially the first season, that season was character driven and all our main characters were present each episode and got fleshed out with episodes focused on them. KW was also on board and helping to co-write with JP at the time. He left sometime during season 2.
The reason the characters feel 'inconsistent' is because the focus stopped being about the characters and more about pointless shock value and how much they could top the next big bad and being used for plot convenience when they need them to act a certain way for the story. It now also feels like there's multiple big bads a season instead of just one. I long for the season 1 days were Katherine was the build up big bad all season until her surprise at the end, same with Klaus in season 2. He gets a mention in the beginning of the season and doesn't show up till the last half.
Though since then TVD has become so engrossed in their guest stars that get more screen time than the characters who have been there since season 1. This is why we're losing characters like Jeremy and Tyler. They may not be as popular as the main trio or Caroline and Bonnie but I'm certainly more attached to characters faces I've been seeing since season 1 than random guest stars like Jo who only have been introduced this season and yet has shown up in more episodes than Tyler has. Really the list of guest stars is as lengthy as the main cast, taking time from the lesser characters like Bonnie/Matt/Tyler and even Caroline sometimes (the only people who show up in every episode, every season is Damon, Stefan, and Elena).
The writers from TVD also change every season and sometimes every episode and JP also drafted some of her better writers from TVD so that they could write for TO instead. That helps with the inconsistencies as we can get a giggly Elena with Damon in the kitchen one episode and then the next episode she's going behind his back to get Stefan to snap his neck so she could go on with the plan she wanted without Damon interfering. How's that for inconsistency in a character that we're told is compassionate for others?
Though I certainly don't think you can have it both ways. You can't constantly cheer for Elena's death and for Caroline to take over her role and at the same time complain how horribly written Elena is. She's horribly written because the writers have been sidelining her since season 4. Just look at Elena's character in season 6. So the writers knew before the start of the season that Nina was going to leave, yet instead of giving Elena an empowering storyline for a great sendoff, half of her character gets erased (literally and figuratively) and she's instead sidelined for the rest of the season as Kai/Gemini witches take the stage and now fan favorite no humanity Caroline along with Steroline. If Elena only shows up in like five scenes just to shout Caroline or Stefan's name, how is that even really decent writing to compare to how she was in season 1? Caroline's been given more freedom to actually be herself (and the writers always use her to 'one up Elena' to cater to fans who love her and hate Elena) without dumb supernatural crap while every season since 4 has found some way to take away Elena's agency so that she's 'Not really herself' or 'Know what she's talking about'.
Here's the reminders: Season 4 was the sire bond and no humanity Elena, season 5 was the Doppelganger curse and Katlena body possession, and now season 6 Elena straight off the bat loses her memories so she's not really even herself and the characters treat her as a punching bag and take out their anger on her cause and every character that does manage to inflict some pain on Elena is met by a cheering fandom who wants Elena to die cause she's annoying or want their ship to happen which is why I'll be glad to leave this fandom at the end of the season and never look back, moving on to show's with better writers who treat their characters and their fans with way more integrity than TVD will ever do.
I think I'll end this post (and being in this thread in general) by answering the question. If a show starts off with characters in season 1 and season 6 they're the exact same characters, with the exact same ideologies despite their experiences over the season, then those show runners are horrible writers (unfortunately some characters are still like they're season one counterparts so eh...) I expect characters to change over the seasons as they gain proper development not spout the same things over the course of several seasons.
Obviously Elena has changed as a character that you would expect to throughout all these experiences over the seasons, when the writers actually cared about her more as a character and less as shipping fanbait. Going from a sheltered girl who had to put on this happy front after the death of her parents and was afraid to disappoint her friends and go after what she wanted to a confident girl who's now comfortable in her own skin and can actually stand her ground when it comes to sticking to her decisions and talk back to her friends and defend herself when they're spouting nonsense they know nothing about (like Caroline who hasn't experienced all the private moments that Elena has with Damon).
So when you put it that way, Elena has changed. But when you make it all about the 'shipping' like 'Since Damon?' that's just coming off more like anti fans of Delena who are still angry and upset that Elena dared to break up with Stefan so now they say she's a completely different character and call her every name in the books since she's moved on and has since never looked back.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 19, 2015 9:06:14 GMT -5
Well it seems like perhaps you are missing the real conflict that Damon was feeling about all of it and I don't know how, when we saw it in 2x08 and his honesty about it with Elena amongst many other times. You can't get stuck on how Damon started out on the show or else what's the point of any progress being made if you are going to ignore it and only see how he was the first few episodes and keep saying he's the same guy? This is what I don't understand about anti-Damon people. Do you just fast forward through the Damon scenes or just plug your ears and cover your eyes when he is onscreen? Maybe you go get a snack...LOL I'm joking, but really I've had these same arguments with Stelena fans for 6 years now and we never get anywhere and the topic is ELENA and if she's changed, not Damon so we're way off topic now. I'm sure there's a Damon bashing thread somewhere in debates or anti-boards or you can make one if there isn't but now we need to get back on topic. I'm not Anti-Damon! I have said before now hes my one of my favourite characters! I'm just saying he's not always consistent 2x08 he may seem he's changed (and had) but then after it he'll still alk about and act like he hated stefan at times so it was hard to see if his intentions were always pure. But yeah the topic was Elena and if she's changed but it's equally tied to Damon as she really changed season 4 to me because the writing her for her was so all over the place not because of Delena not cause shes a vampire just odd. like season 1 to 3 I felt for Elena. season 4 + I wanted the character to just die or become her old-self. I just feel they right less scenes where i can feel sympathy for her. Even when Damon died my thought is "Why did he and Bonnie die and Elena live!" Well you write just like one! If you like Damon how have you missed all the progress he's made? Of course he'd have setbacks. That is realistic! Not ever having setbacks wouldn't be. But as the seasons have gone on he has learned from his mistakes and made less mistakes. Will he totally revert back to bad!Damon? Without Elena, maybe, but a lot of fans wouldn't be happy about it after all he's done to be a better person. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 19, 2015 9:10:53 GMT -5
Season 1-3 is always going to feel like the better season overall for better written characters than in season 4-6. Especially the first season, that season was character driven and all our main characters were present each episode and got fleshed out with episodes focused on them. KW was also on board and helping to co-write with JP at the time. He left sometime during season 2.
The reason the characters feel 'inconsistent' is because the focus stopped being about the characters and more about pointless shock value and how much they could top the next big bad and being used for plot convenience when they need them to act a certain way for the story. It now also feels like there's multiple big bads a season instead of just one. I long for the season 1 days were Katherine was the build up big bad all season until her surprise at the end, same with Klaus in season 2. He gets a mention in the beginning of the season and doesn't show up till the last half.
Though since then TVD has become so engrossed in their guest stars that get more screen time than the characters who have been there since season 1. This is why we're losing characters like Jeremy and Tyler. They may not be as popular as the main trio or Caroline and Bonnie but I'm certainly more attached to characters faces I've been seeing since season 1 than random guest stars like Jo who only have been introduced this season and yet has shown up in more episodes than Tyler has. Really the list of guest stars is as lengthy as the main cast, taking time from the lesser characters like Bonnie/Matt/Tyler and even Caroline sometimes (the only people who show up in every episode, every season is Damon, Stefan, and Elena).
The writers from TVD also change every season and sometimes every episode and JP also drafted some of her better writers from TVD so that they could write for TO instead. That helps with the inconsistencies as we can get a giggly Elena with Damon in the kitchen one episode and then the next episode she's going behind his back to get Stefan to snap his neck so she could go on with the plan she wanted without Damon interfering. How's that for inconsistency in a character that we're told is compassionate for others?
Though I certainly don't think you can have it both ways. You can't constantly cheer for Elena's death and for Caroline to take over her role and at the same time complain how horribly written Elena is. She's horribly written because the writers have been sidelining her since season 4. Just look at Elena's character in season 6. So the writers knew before the start of the season that Nina was going to leave, yet instead of giving Elena an empowering storyline for a great sendoff, half of her character gets erased (literally and figuratively) and she's instead sidelined for the rest of the season as Kai/Gemini witches take the stage and now fan favorite no humanity Caroline along with Steroline. If Elena only shows up in like five scenes just to shout Caroline or Stefan's name, how is that even really decent writing to compare to how she was in season 1? Caroline's been given more freedom to actually be herself (and the writers always use her to 'one up Elena' to cater to fans who love her and hate Elena) without dumb supernatural crap while every season since 4 has found some way to take away Elena's agency so that she's 'Not really herself' or 'Know what she's talking about'.
Here's the reminders: Season 4 was the sire bond and no humanity Elena, season 5 was the Doppelganger curse and Katlena body possession, and now season 6 Elena straight off the bat loses her memories so she's not really even herself and the characters treat her as a punching bag and take out their anger on her cause and every character that does manage to inflict some pain on Elena is met by a cheering fandom who wants Elena to die cause she's annoying or want their ship to happen which is why I'll be glad to leave this fandom at the end of the season and never look back, moving on to show's with better writers who treat their characters and their fans with way more integrity than TVD will ever do.
I think I'll end this post (and being in this thread in general) by answering the question. If a show starts off with characters in season 1 and season 6 they're the exact same characters, with the exact same ideologies despite their experiences over the season, then those show runners are horrible writers (unfortunately some characters are still like they're season one counterparts so eh...) I expect characters to change over the seasons as they gain proper development not spout the same things over the course of several seasons.
Obviously Elena has changed as a character that you would expect to throughout all these experiences over the seasons, when the writers actually cared about her more as a character and less as shipping fanbait. Going from a sheltered girl who had to put on this happy front after the death of her parents and was afraid to disappoint her friends and go after what she wanted to a confident girl who's now comfortable in her own skin and can actually stand her ground when it comes to sticking to her decisions and talk back to her friends and defend herself when they're spouting nonsense they know nothing about (like Caroline who hasn't experienced all the private moments that Elena has with Damon).
So when you put it that way, Elena has changed. But when you make it all about the 'shipping' like 'Since Damon?' that's just coming off more like anti fans of Delena who are still angry and upset that Elena dared to break up with Stefan so now they say she's a completely different character and call her every name in the books since she's moved on and has since never looked back.
You nailed it with this first bolded paragraph...and that particular episode (Dangerous Liasons) was the first one in which I was fuming mad at Elena for the way she treated Damon, written by Caroline Dries by the way. That should have told us something! It was completely inconsistent with her behavior in prior episodes and it really started rolling downhill from there to the finale of season 3.
And in the second bolded paragraph I agree with you. Elena finally knows what she wants and what she wants is Damon. For Stelena fans that meant Elena wasn't herself. Elena changed into a worse version of herself. No, she didn't. She changed who she loved. She became more confident. She knows what she wants now. If you really liked the Elena that didn't know what she wanted, was afraid to choose, afraid to decide, afraid to disappoint her friends, afraid to freaking live her life, made choices based upon obligation and not her true desires, then I don't know what to say about that! That Elena frustrated the hell out of me. This Elena is a better version of herself. This Elena grew up and took responsibility for herself and stopped running away from what she wanted for herself. This Elena makes decisions and sticks with them. (Unless they character assassinate her now, which is always possible, but I digress.  )
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Post by vampirelust on Apr 19, 2015 11:14:02 GMT -5
Fantastic debate/discussion going on here, and like most of you, I have spent years having the same old arguments with SE fans and Elena haters, which are really DE/Damon haters. It is no coincidence to me that this uprising against Elena coincided with her commencing a relationship with Damon, shocker.
Again, I agree that Elena has changed somewhat, that is only to be expected, but she has changed for the better for the reasons already covered so well here, but I would counter that some of the behavior that is cited by the antis is behavior that we have seen Elena display consistently from S1. The most common themes cited are that she has become selfish, she doesn't care about her friends or Jeremy, she has become darker and less compassionate, every thing is all about her or her relationship with Damon. I would just like to explain my reasons for why I think the above has been true of Elena since S1 and throughout.
Elena was selfish way back in S1,the very fact that she continued a relationship with a vampire (Stefan), and was willing to embrace all that he is even after seeing his capabilities and flaws, and witnessing his lies and manipulations, all the while seeing how her relationship with vamps was bringing death and destruction to her friends and family is the epitome of selfishness. Elena placed her relationship with Stefan first, above her friendship with Bonnie, and above her relationship with her brother even. Elena and Stefan, both continued that theme into S2, and the result was Aunt Jenna got compelled to stab herself, matt was put in danger, Tyler became a werewolf, and Caroline became a vampire. All these things happened because of the SE relationship, and their selfishness in not wanting to give each other up for the greater good. The above was all prior to Elena finding out that she was a doppelganger, so as far as she knew, all these bad things were happening to her friends and family, because she had encouraged supernaturals into her life, and she finally got that when Jenna was hurt, and ONLY then did she break up with Stefan.
Elena has a moral code/center that applies to who she loves most, she loves a lot of people, but she prioritises that love, just like everyone else does in MF, and she always did, even as a human.
Elena also showed us just how manipulative and ruthless she could be to achieve her goals ie Stabbing Rebekah in the back, lying to Damon about helping him open the tomb, getting Stefan to snap Damon's neck, manipulated Damon to help her find info at Duke, daggering Elijah etc, in fact Damon pointed out just how "Katherine" Elena could be, he saw that in her, he saw her darkness, he knew exactly what Elena was capable of, he always did.
Elena is also capable of huge amounts of compassion, empathy and forgiveness too as a human and vampire. Elena has forgiven Stefan, Damon and Katherine for all the terrible things they have inflicted on her over the years, even forgiving Kat on her deathbed for killing Jeremy.
As a vampire Elena showed how her compassion was still ever present in her interactions with April Young, Aarron Whitmore, her ability to empathize with his situation was a substantial plot point in S5. Elena was willing to exchange herself for Caroline when the hybrids took her in the plot against Klaus in S4, even though Caroline had that very evening, upset her in a massive way.
This season is a little harder to discuss because of how little POV we have had from Elena since the first couple of Episodes which was very much centered on her struggle with the loss of Damon. Since her memory wipe, we have seen little to none of her thoughts or motivations, but we have seen her trying to reach out to Caroline during the Liz arc, being there for her as a support and friend. Elena was only one tuned in the fact that Caroline was acting strange at the funeral, and went to help her (so much for the "it's all about me). Elena has been involved in getting Bonnie back from 1994, aside from Damon, she has done the most, and was visibly happy to have her back.
IDK, but this latest SL seems a little rushed with cure and everything, but I guess we know why now.
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 19, 2015 12:39:31 GMT -5
I write like one because I like him. I dont miss his process but there are times the writing is all over the place with him. I like the fact he's not perfect it's easier to relate. It's like with Elena i complain so much because I liked her and they dropped the ball. I constantly find ways of bringing up Katherines death because I loved that character. You'll come to find i'm one of those that likes to look at good and bad with what I like. I cant just blindly be "I like damon so i cant see the writers messed up a few times" (like season 4 he seemed cartoonish at times.
Soon i'm doing video reviews of each boxset of TVD (i need to binge watch each one first) I'll post them here when I do maybe that'll clear it up as I joined this site more season 5 which added more complaints than praise so maybe I seem overly negative a times but I'm also a WWE fan lol we tend even if we like a superstar (wrestler) to complain at booking , moves , promos , new attires because passion in a product I feel is looking at ALL parts not just good.
As for what AnbuPrincess said. See I dont see her be sidelined I see it the opposite. I see her shoved down our throats. Like season 1 - Elena's self discovery , Season 2 - Her learning about her doppleganger stuff , season 3 learning to finally accept she loved both brothers. This is cool this is delevopment. Season 4 - everyone wants Elena to get cure so they are all willing to give up what they want and after they go through all that she's like "Nope didnt want it. U mad bro?" POINTLESS! She still drove the show but now it was because she was so perfect everyone had to start giving up everything to save her or make her happy.
It's not she's sidelined it's just they use her wrong. She should drive the story BUT because it makes sense to her character. She is now just inserted way to much into everything. If they used her like they did Caroline who was sidelined. Cool i could have dealt. But this was just as i've said before Lana Lang in Smallville bad (who there is reason she kept topping polls as most hated CW character durring smallville maybe of all time) and i dont like it. It makes the character have nothing redeemable and makes her just selfish , pathetic and worse to watch than Tyler trying to do stand up ...... scratch the last one as i would PAY to see that lol but still early on she was a regular girl thrown into the middle of this vampire world. Now she is the centre of everyones world and the thing everything moves around. She's a plot device now.
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 19, 2015 12:55:23 GMT -5
Fantastic debate/discussion going on here, and like most of you, I have spent years having the same old arguments with SE fans and Elena haters, which are really DE/Damon haters. It is no coincidence to me that this uprising against Elena coincided with her commencing a relationship with Damon, shocker. See it's also the same time Kevin Williamson left. As he still helped plan season 3. As a child of the late 80's and 90's i have to say it's not unexpected. Look at dawsons creek Kevin Williamson left and the series was down hill fast. Joey/Pacey were still the best couple ever to come from it BUT the heart of the series was lost. Like Jack coming out the closet in Dawsons creek makes me cry everytime im not ashamed to admit. TVD Season 1+ 2+3 was soooo good. Stelena was not the reason I was cheering Delena but Kevin Williamson knows story telling. I mean compaire season 2 to season 5 and you have to see a difference Kevin Williamson was writing and Delena had stuff like the I love you compulsion and "I wanted it to be real" after road trip. He leaves and we get sire bond where every Delena scena was a)sex or b) is this real? .... thats boring. Season 6 Memory wipe! it's like Kevin Williamson made subtle things for them to overcome and real things. With out him they have to create and force big huge things to overcome which is lazy writing. When Kevin Williamson was around it was a show about characters in an super natural world. When he left it became Ships in a supernatural world. The characters became second to which ship #s they could make trend. So rest assured it is NOT the relationship with damon that has caused it to me it's just a horrible shame that Delena happened to happen with the exit of Kevin Williamson |
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Post by vampirelust on Apr 19, 2015 13:54:27 GMT -5
Fantastic debate/discussion going on here, and like most of you, I have spent years having the same old arguments with SE fans and Elena haters, which are really DE/Damon haters. It is no coincidence to me that this uprising against Elena coincided with her commencing a relationship with Damon, shocker. See it's also the same time Kevin Williamson left. As he still helped plan season 3. As a child of the late 80's and 90's i have to say it's not unexpected. Look at dawsons creek Kevin Williamson left and the series was down hill fast. Joey/Pacey were still the best couple ever to come from it BUT the heart of the series was lost. Like Jack coming out the closet in Dawsons creek makes me cry everytime im not ashamed to admit. TVD Season 1+ 2+3 was soooo good. Stelena was not the reason I was cheering Delena but Kevin Williamson knows story telling. I mean compaire season 2 to season 5 and you have to see a difference Kevin Williamson was writing and Delena had stuff like the I love you compulsion and "I wanted it to be real" after road trip. He leaves and we get sire bond where every Delena scena was a)sex or b) is this real? .... thats boring. Season 6 Memory wipe! it's like Kevin Williamson made subtle things for them to overcome and real things. With out him they have to create and force big huge things to overcome which is lazy writing. When Kevin Williamson was around it was a show about characters in an super natural world. When he left it became Ships in a supernatural world. The characters became second to which ship #s they could make trend. So rest assured it is NOT the relationship with damon that has caused it to me it's just a horrible shame that Delena happened to happen with the exit of Kevin Williamson I don't think you will get many people arguing with you about the decline in the quality of writing in the last few seasons, but that wasn't what we were discussing specifically. My point was about Elena and how she has changed and not changed. There was a notable increase in viewer hate against Elena from S4 upwards, mostly from the SE fandom, which is understandable, but for me, the arguments leveled at her characterization were flawed, because as I pointed out in my original post, these same fans accepted and loved Elena, with all these same traits when she was with Stefan, or at least overlooked them, whilst hating on her for similar actions after they broke up, furthermore, the anger and hatred is disproportionate to her actions IMO. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 19, 2015 14:05:09 GMT -5
I know  my point was thats when people like me who liked her started to hate her because she was written so badly due to the thing I mentioned. The new writers dont do subtle which Elena + her relationships had. So she seems like a worse character as she is not written as well so the flaws seem to be amplified and the strength of the character less shown. It's writing 101. So many times Stefan or Damon or Caroline or Bonnie or Matt ect... mention Elena is so compassionate or Elena is so kind. They tell dson't show now which is a mistake. They talk about her been a good person more than she acts like one and that makes it grain and the hate build. As now it's like Elena can no wrong now Elena is always right or it feels that way. As a result Elena has gone from great character I loved to mary sue. But the quality of writing is the main reason in my end as it's not like she just forgot how to act but When elena with humanity off is not that different to Elena who is meant to have humanity, there is a problem. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 19, 2015 14:55:20 GMT -5
I know my point was thats when people like me who liked her started to hate her because she was written so badly due to the thing I mentioned. The new writers dont do subtle which Elena + her relationships had. So she seems like a worse character as she is not written as well so the flaws seem to be amplified and the strength of the character less shown. It's writing 101. So many times Stefan or Damon or Caroline or Bonnie or Matt ect... mention Elena is so compassionate or Elena is so kind. They tell dson't show now which is a mistake. They talk about her been a good person more than she acts like one and that makes it grain and the hate build. As now it's like Elena can no wrong now Elena is always right or it feels that way. As a result Elena has gone from great character I loved to mary sue. But the quality of writing is the main reason in my end as it's not like she just forgot how to act but When elena with humanity off is not that different to Elena who is meant to have humanity, there is a problem. Well maybe it IS the acting and maybe that is why she isn't coming back for season 7. I mean I agree that the writing has sucked and it did somewhat coincide with KW leaving the scene but also with JP leaving the scene for her new baby TO, while stealing some of the best writers and actors from TVD. Ian was not happy about that as some may recall. She basically cherry picks the best off TVD for her other ventures now and that's a problem. Anyway there's tons of things wrong with TVD and the writing, but I agree with the others that Elena has not changed that much and especially has not become a worse character. The topic is that she changed since turning or loving Damon and I don't think that is true. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 19, 2015 17:53:03 GMT -5
Yeah it is. The topic is that she changed since turning or loving Damon as you said which I'm on the stance she has BUT loving Damon + Turning is not why. it just happened to be at the same time. It's the writing and she has changed because of it to been a nasty horrible character. Like if I'm playing Jenga and knock the tower down then there is an earthquake at that exact second. Jenga is not the reason for the earthquake and can still be enjoyed as a game, It's just a horrible coincidence. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 19, 2015 18:20:54 GMT -5
Yeah it is. The topic is that she changed since turning or loving Damon as you said which I'm on the stance she has BUT loving Damon + Turning is not why. it just happened to be at the same time. It's the writing and she has changed because of it to been a nasty horrible character. Like if I'm playing Jenga and knock the tower down then there is an earthquake at that exact second. Jenga is not the reason for the earthquake and can still be enjoyed as a game, It's just a horrible coincidence. How is she a nasty horrible character? That is the question really. I don't think she is a nasty horrible character. I think she actually has improved overall. Now I'm not saying that she hasn't done annoying stuff from time to time but so have the others. But what I don't get is what makes people say she is a nasty horrible person now. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Apr 19, 2015 18:33:24 GMT -5
It's because like i mentioned near start of this convo there seems to more selfishness with less of her good ones so the balance is off. It might just be how I see it but most of the good psrts I see are so far and few between that its just that negative side before I felt it was 50/50 or at least 40/60 which was still ok now its like 10/90 or 20/80
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Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 19, 2015 18:54:42 GMT -5
It's because like i mentioned near start of this convo there seems to more selfishness with less of her good ones so the balance is off. It might just be how I see it but most of the good psrts I see are so far and few between that its just that negative side before I felt it was 50/50 or at least 40/60 which was still ok now its like 10/90 or 20/80 Give me an example. I hear this argument all the time but I don't hear why. Give me your laundry list of examples because you must have one since you feel so strongly anti-Elena. I think people are oversensitive about Elena mainly because for some she left Stefan, for others she's in the way of their ship, but their reasons don't make sense to me. It seems like a lot of people just jump on the hate Elena bandwagon without actually thinking it all out, same as the Damon haters. They see other fans hating and they jump right on and ignore any possible explanations other than that the character sucks. They sometimes don't look deep enough into the character's reasoning. Elena has pissed me off from time to time but overall I think she's been just as decent a character as any of the other ones and at times she's been way better than some of the other ones so I don't see what is so awful and terrible about her. |
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my point was thats when people like me who liked her started to hate her because she was written so badly due to the thing I mentioned. The new writers dont do subtle which Elena + her relationships had. So she seems like a worse character as she is not written as well so the flaws seem to be amplified and the strength of the character less shown. It's writing 101. So many times Stefan or Damon or Caroline or Bonnie or Matt ect... mention Elena is so compassionate or Elena is so kind. They tell dson't show now which is a mistake. They talk about her been a good person more than she acts like one and that makes it grain and the hate build. As now it's like Elena can no wrong now Elena is always right or it feels that way.