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Post by Slash on Jan 20, 2012 22:07:09 GMT -5
We kind of touched on this in Chat but really, does Stefan have grounds to punch Damon?
This is a guy who terrorized Elena just a few days ago (or however long in the show) with the possibility of going off the bridge her parents drove off of and also told her he didn't care about Jeremy's safety when Klaus was going after him. He's taken every chance to let Elena know that he doesn't care about her anymore. Then, come last night's episode, she told him that *SHE* kissed Damon, not that Damon kissed her and then he proceeds to act like a broken/shattered man, after all the crap he's done. Few hours later, he heads home and punches Damon.
So was he just going off the idea that he knows that Damon has a huge interest in her and is assuming Damon initiated (although we as the viewers know Damon did initiate) or is it the fact that he's not going to punch Elena and can't do squat after the crap he's pulled towards her? I mean, she *DID* kiss him when he was on his death bed but I know she wasn't referring to that.
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seersha
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Post by seersha on Jan 20, 2012 23:01:01 GMT -5
Stefan and Damon beat on each other - that's kind of their thing, when they're emotional, they react by violence. Damon has recently beat on Stefan a couple of times now as a reaction to certain information he's discovered, and I've never blinked, or gotten mad at Damon. I guess I'm used to Damon having those reactions - regardless of if he had "grounds" for said punches at the time. ((Depending on how lively this debate goes, I may even go back and re-watch some of those more recent scenes to see what provoked Damon exactly, right before he slugged Stefan.))
Also, Damon seemed like he was expecting the punch/reaction: "I get it, you're mad," he said, and didn't retaliate.
At this point, I think that this is sort of their (Stefan/Damon) dynamic; they don't sit down and have emotional chats, they punch out their issues, LOL. To me, a punch between these two is not such a big deal since they've been punching things out for the last year or so.
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Post by Slash on Jan 20, 2012 23:10:20 GMT -5
Last time Damon beat down on Stefan, Stefan took a shot at Damon and his attachment to his humanity (after Damon had freed him from the dungeon and their run-in with Mikael). Actually, not sure if you'd count Damon dragging him out of the old house and then sticking him with a branch 2-3 times when Damon wanted to know why Stefan botched his plan to kill Klaus. Before that, the last 'emotional' confrontation they had that I can remember is when Stefan got in Damon's face about Andie and told him he'd never have Elena's respect. I think the last time Stefan laid into him was after Damon gave Elena blood (Damon had to stick him again).
This seems like a 'peculiar' case though because of the stuff leading up to it on Stefan's behalf and from the info he was told. Elena said she kissed Damon but Damon takes the hit? I do see it as the 'norm' between them but I also see it as Stefan not wanting to bring it up entirely on Elena either cause he's been a Grade-A Ass Hat to her as of late so he'll fall back to punching Damon and neither will think nothing of it cause it's their thing.
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seersha
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Post by seersha on Jan 20, 2012 23:38:38 GMT -5
Well, I just re-watched the scene and here is how I read it:
Stefan came home, and chatted with Damon briefly about Klaus. He turned away and I think, intended to leave the room. He probably wanted to be alone, frankly.
Then Damon asks if Elena is OK. 'Elena' is obviously a sore spot for Stefan in that moment, also since now the fact that his brother is wondering after her wellbeing could mean so, so much more.
So he turns and punches Damon. I got it wrong above, Damon doesn't acknowledge that Stefan's mad, but he does seem to know that Elena has obviously told him about their kiss, and says, "I take it you don't want to talk about it. Noted."
Then they move on to the topic of Elijah. Damon doesn't retaliate with a punch, or seem that surprised by the punch. He just rolls with it - as if, yeah, he knew that when Stefan found out, he was going to punch him.
Stefan acted out of emotion, impulsively, but it's not like he came barrelling into the house shouting at Damon or looking for a fight. In fact there is an odd 'calmness' to that scene, even with the punch in there.
Personally, I still don't see it as a big deal after re-watching. I maintain that this has now become part of the 'normal' Damon/Stefan dynamic - reacting with a punch and/or violence - and that it's happened too many times now, regardless of motives or "grounds," that it doesn't really phase me much. Actually, I think it seems pretty consistent with their dynamic so far...
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Post by Slash on Jan 21, 2012 0:01:53 GMT -5
It's actually kind of no different than the 'humanity' thing with Damon from earlier. Damon was leaving, Stefan made a comment about Damon and his humanity and then Damon turned around and took some shots. Elena may be a sore spot for Stefan but he left Damon with watching out for her and Damon knew Stefan had followed Elena so of course he'd ask to check up on things cause Elena was kind of blowing him off to begin with.
I'm actually now tempted to see how often this happens. One goes to walk away, a 'trigger' word is used, someone takes a few hits and then that's that with little struggle from the other side.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 21, 2012 9:22:32 GMT -5
I guess the question was, "Did he have grounds?" No, he did not have grounds. He and Elena were split up. However, having said that, it's obviously a pretty emotional thing. Stefan has suddenly found that Elena is reciprocating the feelings he knew Damon had for her all this time. It shouldn't come as a surprise to him and it doesn't. I think he just hoped it wouldn't happen, maybe that their 'love' was strong enough that it wouldn't. Whatever logic he used, even if it makes no sense to me after everything he's done, it probably makes sense to him. Then, of course, Damon being the receiver of said returned feelings he's gonna get the brunt of it with a fist to the face. Yes Damon saw it coming and had already decided how he was going to deal with it. Had he not expected it, or didn't feel like he should take it, they would have had a much bigger scuffle. Damon does not back down from a fight, but he did this time. That says he felt it was justified or that he understood why Stefan did it. Damon admitted feeling guilty so it made sense that he took it the way he did, maybe even welcomed it as payback for his 'crime' against his brother because he does feel guilty about his feelings for Elena, but at the same time it cleared the air between the brothers and got it over with in a relatively quick and painless way. It could have been much much worse. They've gone at it before in a way that if someone hadn't come between them, usually Elena, one of them might have killed the other, but not this time. So, even though it wasn't justifed given the current situation, it was bound to happen but both of them understood the other's position enough that it didn't become some horrible huge fight between them. We'll see how they deal with each other from here on out and if they ever DO actually talk about it. I'm inspired to make a thread with all their various fight scenes.  I will say one thing from memory, Stefan tends to sucker punch Damon, not that there isn't a reason, but that nothing is said about anything before Stefan attacks. It's not like Damon was provoking him by asking about Elena. |
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Post by Slash on Jan 21, 2012 11:34:48 GMT -5
Hoped it wouldn't happen? You mean treat her like crap this entire time and hope that nothing happened between her and Damon so that when he got through this Klaus thing and was on his way back to regaining his humanity, he could 'patch up' things with Elena and things would go back to normal? With the way Elena is trying to brush off Damon as before, eh. I know Damon feels guilty given the situation (Stefan being where he is cause he saved Damon's life so Damon doesn't want to make that move on Elena cause he's the reason in part that they're separated) but I think he realized a bit that the 2 of them will constantly be doing this (saving each other) and feeling guilty will be the sole reason he'll never try and go all the way with Elena (despite his devotion to her) so that's why he kind of made the move to kiss her that night. Stefan has saved his life twice in the past 2-3 months and it's just really a conflicting issue for him with Stefan saving his life and Damon not wanting to feel guilty about hooking up/making a move on Elena cause of the reason they broke up/are apart. That last paragraph may be confusing/jibberish |
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Post by thebabe20 on Jan 21, 2012 11:38:16 GMT -5
I guess the question was, "Did he have grounds?" No, he did not have grounds. He and Elena were split up. However, having said that, it's obviously a pretty emotional thing. Stefan has suddenly found that Elena is reciprocating the feelings he knew Damon had for her all this time. It shouldn't come as a surprise to him and it doesn't. I think he just hoped it wouldn't happen, maybe that their 'love' was strong enough that it wouldn't. Whatever logic he used, even if it makes no sense to me after everything he's done, it probably makes sense to him. Then, of course, Damon being the receiver of said returned feelings he's gonna get the brunt of it with a fist to the face. Yes Damon saw it coming and had already decided how he was going to deal with it. Had he not expected it, or didn't feel like he should take it, they would have had a much bigger scuffle. Damon does not back down from a fight, but he did this time. That says he felt it was justified or that he understood why Stefan did it. Damon admitted feeling guilty so it made sense that he took it the way he did, maybe even welcomed it as payback for his 'crime' against his brother because he does feel guilty about his feelings for Elena, but at the same time it cleared the air between the brothers and got it over with in a relatively quick and painless way. It could have been much much worse. They've gone at it before in a way that if someone hadn't come between them, usually Elena, one of them might have killed the other, but not this time. So, even though it wasn't justifed given the current situation, it was bound to happen but both of them understood the other's position enough that it didn't become some horrible huge fight between them. We'll see how they deal with each other from here on out and if they ever DO actually talk about it. I'm inspired to make a thread with all their various fight scenes. I will say one thing from memory, Stefan tends to sucker punch Damon, not that there isn't a reason, but that nothing is said about anything before Stefan attacks. It's not like Damon was provoking him by asking about Elena. Agree with this completely. Couldn't have said it better.  |
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Post by ruby2579 on Jan 21, 2012 11:50:24 GMT -5
I think he had grounds. I actually like Stefan good or bad. It just shows he is not as perfect as he tried to make himself feel. Even though he feels he has lost Elena, it doesnt mean that he still doesnt love her him being an ass or not. I really like that whole scene from when Elena told him about her and Damon to him punching Damon because it finally shows STEFAN not the Ripper but Stefan and I loved it. I loved how he was on the verge of crying before he left Elena (letting the guilt of what he's done to her break through his face) Damon knew it would happen sooner or later thats why he didnt react badly to it. he knew the consequences wouldnt be too great but thats Damon =) and to him a kiss for a punch is well worth it haha
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 21, 2012 13:17:57 GMT -5
I think he had grounds. I actually like Stefan good or bad. It just shows he is not as perfect as he tried to make himself feel. Even though he feels he has lost Elena, it doesnt mean that he still doesnt love her him being an ass or not. I really like that whole scene from when Elena told him about her and Damon to him punching Damon because it finally shows STEFAN not the Ripper but Stefan and I loved it. I loved how he was on the verge of crying before he left Elena (letting the guilt of what he's done to her break through his face) Damon knew it would happen sooner or later thats why he didnt react badly to it. he knew the consequences wouldnt be too great but thats Damon =) and to him a kiss for a punch is well worth it haha What were the grounds given that they were broken up and have been for a while now? Still loving someone is not grounds for punching the next guy out. It certainly happens, but it's not justified simply because you still love someone. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 21, 2012 13:19:28 GMT -5
Hoped it wouldn't happen? You mean treat her like crap this entire time and hope that nothing happened between her and Damon so that when he got through this Klaus thing and was on his way back to regaining his humanity, he could 'patch up' things with Elena and things would go back to normal? With the way Elena is trying to brush off Damon as before, eh. I know Damon feels guilty given the situation (Stefan being where he is cause he saved Damon's life so Damon doesn't want to make that move on Elena cause he's the reason in part that they're separated) but I think he realized a bit that the 2 of them will constantly be doing this (saving each other) and feeling guilty will be the sole reason he'll never try and go all the way with Elena (despite his devotion to her) so that's why he kind of made the move to kiss her that night. Stefan has saved his life twice in the past 2-3 months and it's just really a conflicting issue for him with Stefan saving his life and Damon not wanting to feel guilty about hooking up/making a move on Elena cause of the reason they broke up/are apart. That last paragraph may be confusing/jibberish ^ This sums it up quite nicely. Although, the reason SE split up wasn't Damon. Elena probably would have waited a long time for Stefan if Stefan had given her any hope that he would be back. But it was completely something Stefan decided to do for his own reasons, whatever they were. He's always as clear as mud to me, but regardless, he decided to split up with Elena and tell her to get lost several different times. Just last week he told her he didn't care what she thought of him, etc. etc. Even with being dumped on her butt several times and humiliated she held out hope for a long while, really until a couple episodes ago. Now all of the sudden he cares cause his brother might get the girl? I call foul. It feels kind of like one of those, 'I don't really want her, but I don't want you to have her even more' kind of things. Why'd he treat her like complete and utter caca if he really still cares and why the sudden 180? Because she might move on to his brother and oh no, we can't have THAT. Damon happy? Not gonna happen on Stefan's watch. There's alot of different ways one can look at his motives. |
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Jan 21, 2012 13:29:09 GMT -5
Ground Nah! No one EVER has ground to put their hands on someone else physically. It's a TV show so different rules I guess.
But I actually just kinda watched that and laughed. Almost expected it in a sense.... Everyone went crazy on twitter and I was thinking to myself really guys? We know who this guy is right now at this time. you knew he would punch him.
Before all of this happened and at the start of season 3 I wondered how Stefan would react. I thought well since Stefan has asked Damon to take care of Elena and I will throw this out there "knowing his feelings for her were love" maybe when the time came he would be like well, I kinda should expect this since I did keep them together. I asked Damon to be the one to protect her because I knew Damon loved her the way I did so he would protect her. It's not a fair thing to do so I thought maybe he would take this understanding and kinda just show more of an emotional sadness when it happened.
But Stefan has been someone different lately. So when he punched Damon I laughed. And When Damon shot back "so I take it you and Elena had a heart to heart" I laughed! It was kinda silly.
Someone said it was Stefan coming through but I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure if the Stefan who punched Damon is the true Stefan or just a frustrated with everything, has the weight on his shoulder, Klaus told him he had no friends left, Elena doesn't even want me around and it's all starting to unfold in me Stefan.
Look this episode was telling. His actions are pushing people away. Even Klaus told him "look around" and really who out there is Stefan's friend at this point? I Mean Damon loves his bro, he will do anything but he doesn't quite like him. Elena doesn't want to deal with him for obvious and GREAT reasons. Bonnie is there because she feels she has to. The council is pissed at him and I'm sure Tyler and Care thank him for that bite. Jer is gone bc he wont help her keep him safe and I'm sure Alaric thinks he's a grad A douche for getting hit. Stefan realizes this in this episode! Before he even finds out about the kiss.
He realizes Elena lied to him so she wouldn't have to deal with him and that she kissed his brother. he is realizing that he really is losing everything because of the coffins. So I expected him to hit Damon yes.
I wont lie if I didn't say I felt it was a bet self righteous. But do I understand sure. Did I expect it. Yep! Do i think he was justified NOPE!
I wont make excuses for Stefan's actions but I can dissect them to understand them more I guess.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 21, 2012 13:40:02 GMT -5
Ground Nah! No one EVER has ground to put their hands on someone else physically. It's a TV show so different rules I guess. But I actually just kinda watched that and laughed. Almost expected it in a sense.... Everyone went crazy on twitter and I was thinking to myself really guys? We know who this guy is right now at this time. you knew he would punch him. Before all of this happened and at the start of season 3 I wondered how Stefan would react. I thought well since Stefan has asked Damon to take care of Elena and I will throw this out there "knowing his feelings for her were love" maybe when the time came he would be like well, I kinda should expect this since I did keep them together. I asked Damon to be the one to protect her because I knew Damon loved her the way I did so he would protect her. It's not a fair thing to do so I thought maybe he would take this understanding and kinda just show more of an emotional sadness when it happened. But Stefan has been someone different lately. So when he punched Damon I laughed. And When Damon shot back "so I take it you and Elena had a heart to heart" I laughed! It was kinda silly. Someone said it was Stefan coming through but I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure if the Stefan who punched Damon is the true Stefan or just a frustrated with everything, has the weight on his shoulder, Klaus told him he had no friends left, Elena doesn't even want me around and it's all starting to unfold in me Stefan. Look this episode was telling. His actions are pushing people away. Even Klaus told him "look around" and really who out there is Stefan's friend at this point? I Mean Damon loves his bro, he will do anything but he doesn't quite like him. Elena doesn't want to deal with him for obvious and GREAT reasons. Bonnie is there because she feels she has to. The council is pissed at him and I'm sure Tyler and Care thank him for that bite. Jer is gone bc he wont help her keep him safe and I'm sure Alaric thinks he's a grad A douche for getting hit. Stefan realizes this in this episode! Before he even finds out about the kiss. He realizes Elena lied to him so she wouldn't have to deal with him and that she kissed his brother. he is realizing that he really is losing everything because of the coffins. So I expected him to hit Damon yes. I wont lie if I didn't say I felt it was a bet self righteous. But do I understand sure. Did I expect it. Yep! Do i think he was justified NOPE! I wont make excuses for Stefan's actions but I can dissect them to understand them more I guess. Self righteous? Nah Stefan would NEVER be self-righteous. A bit of the old Stefan rearing it's ugly head there I guess. Ick I shudder at the combination of old and 'new' Stefan combined into one, a self-righteous ahole who doesn't give a crap...sounds lovely. It seems to me he's only starting to care because it's starting to effect HIM. Prior to that it was, 'not my problem,' as the standard answer coming out of his mouth. |
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Post by ruby2579 on Jan 21, 2012 13:48:51 GMT -5
well its not about Stefan punching the next guy out, its punching his brother who loves the same girl he loves again. Even ELena feels guilty about falling for both brothers. thats why she told Damon its not right even if she wants it to be right and thats why she told stefan because she feels no matter how much of an ass he has been he still has a right to know which i give credit to elena for. she is not trying to pull another katherine here
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 21, 2012 13:55:12 GMT -5
She said she didn't feel guilty about kissing Damon, even to Stefan. I think with her it's a matter of tying up loose ends with Stefan so she can move on, or in the possible opposite direction, finding out if it's really over in her heart. There's loose ends, that's why it's 'not right,' not because of guilt, because Elena doesn't lie and she certainly wouldn't lie about that to Stefan. I can see why she wanted him to know. There's no reason to keep that secret and have it be between the brothers and she didn't want that but it doesn't mean much other than that she'd prefer honesty between them.
As far as punching Damon because he loves her, he's known he loved her for a long time now. He didn't punch him for that. He punched him because Elena returned his feelings by kissing him. It was misplaced anger but where else could he have put them? As far as he knew from what Elena told him, Elena kissed Damon and not the other way around.
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