|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 13, 2016 13:21:01 GMT -5
Another example of something that pisses me off is the way Stefan was angry with Damon for not knowing he was missing all summer after he went off in a mope to lick his wounds when Elena got with Damon. I mean he LEFT town. How was Damon to know? On the other hand, Damon was missing for 5 whole years and Stefan never even came looking for him once. Yet Damon did not condemn Stefan for basically completely forgetting about his existence. Hell, who knows when Stefan ever checked back in again after that. I just don't know how anyone can ignore the disparity between the brothers. When I hear that there will be some Defan scenes I cringe anymore because I know it means Stefan will be made to be superior to Damon in some way or other and yet he's way worse in my book.
|
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on Jan 13, 2016 18:38:37 GMT -5
And just like that all the wounds are re-opened and raw. lol. I've often wondered why JP has failed to write Stefan multi-layered and instead has had PW play other characters instead. If Stefan is supposed to feel things more deeply, where is his guilt? Why don't we ever get to see it? The Rebekkah compulsion is in my top "things to hate about the writing on TVD." You have to tell the truth under compulsion. Stefan says they broke up because "she slept with Damon." That sentence means Stefan thinks they broke up BECAUSE she slept with Damon, which means he is delusional because they broke up and then she slept with Damon. He could have answered honestly that they broke up because she wanted to sleep with Damon, but instead they write it like we didn't see the scene on the porch. I think Delusional Stefan would be more interesting and less irritating.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 20:07:53 GMT -5
And just like that all the wounds are re-opened and raw. lol. I've often wondered why JP has failed to write Stefan multi-layered and instead has had PW play other characters instead. If Stefan is supposed to feel things more deeply, where is his guilt? Why don't we ever get to see it? The Rebekkah compulsion is in my top "things to hate about the writing on TVD." You have to tell the truth under compulsion. Stefan says they broke up because "she slept with Damon." That sentence means Stefan thinks they broke up BECAUSE she slept with Damon, which means he is delusional because they broke up and then she slept with Damon. He could have answered honestly that they broke up because she wanted to sleep with Damon, but instead they write it like we didn't see the scene on the porch. I think Delusional Stefan would be more interesting and less irritating. Apparently Stefan has the super power to change canon at will. That being one of many instances where he said things that were flat out not true (even to characters that experienced said moments with him and know better) but still get accepted as absolute fact. I still can't believe he managed to get away with saying that under compulsion. This sounds like a very psychotic character to me. And like you mentioned, they talk about how Stefan's ability to feel remorse and guilt for others is amplified. But when you see Stefan acting like he did towards Elena in 4x11 it sure as heck feels like I missed something somewhere in this show because that's not how I expect someone who feels everyone's pain as his own to act. Elena felt more remorseful in that scene than Stefan did. Worst is that Stefan is the one who broke up with her on mutual terms but he acts like Elena went out and slept with Damon behind his back or something. Imagine showing someone this scene blindly and pointing out, 'That's the good brother. He feels everyone's pain.' It's just ridiculous writing all around. |
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 14, 2016 7:30:44 GMT -5
And just like that all the wounds are re-opened and raw. lol. I've often wondered why JP has failed to write Stefan multi-layered and instead has had PW play other characters instead. If Stefan is supposed to feel things more deeply, where is his guilt? Why don't we ever get to see it? The Rebekkah compulsion is in my top "things to hate about the writing on TVD." You have to tell the truth under compulsion. Stefan says they broke up because "she slept with Damon." That sentence means Stefan thinks they broke up BECAUSE she slept with Damon, which means he is delusional because they broke up and then she slept with Damon. He could have answered honestly that they broke up because she wanted to sleep with Damon, but instead they write it like we didn't see the scene on the porch. I think Delusional Stefan would be more interesting and less irritating. Apparently Stefan has the super power to change canon at will. That being one of many instances where he said things that were flat out not true (even to characters that experienced said moments with him and know better) but still get accepted as absolute fact. I still can't believe he managed to get away with saying that under compulsion. This sounds like a very psychotic character to me. And like you mentioned, they talk about how Stefan's ability to feel remorse and guilt for others is amplified. But when you see Stefan acting like he did towards Elena in 4x11 it sure as heck feels like I missed something somewhere in this show because that's not how I expect someone who feels everyone's pain as his own to act. Elena felt more remorseful in that scene than Stefan did. Worst is that Stefan is the one who broke up with her on mutual terms but he acts like Elena went out and slept with Damon behind his back or something. Imagine showing someone this scene blindly and pointing out, 'That's the good brother. He feels everyone's pain.' It's just ridiculous writing all around. Sometimes I have to wonder if they really meant to write Stefan so self-absorbed and delusional about himself and the people around him. I remember once we talked about the show ending with Stefan being a mental patient in a straight jacket relaying this story of his life and everything has been from his sick and twisted point of view. It would make a lot more sense to think the writing happened on purpose than that we really are supposed to believe he's this fantastic good person despite so much evidence to the contrary. But then we have Caroline who has acted like the sun rises and sets because of Stefan and I think, nope, the writing is probably just that bad and the delusional one is JP. I mean how does a person write a story so perfectly wrong so that everything being said is the opposite of the actual truth? It makes me scratch my head sometimes. As I've said before she's either a genius or the worst writer ever. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 9:25:50 GMT -5
Apparently Stefan has the super power to change canon at will. That being one of many instances where he said things that were flat out not true (even to characters that experienced said moments with him and know better) but still get accepted as absolute fact. I still can't believe he managed to get away with saying that under compulsion. This sounds like a very psychotic character to me. And like you mentioned, they talk about how Stefan's ability to feel remorse and guilt for others is amplified. But when you see Stefan acting like he did towards Elena in 4x11 it sure as heck feels like I missed something somewhere in this show because that's not how I expect someone who feels everyone's pain as his own to act. Elena felt more remorseful in that scene than Stefan did. Worst is that Stefan is the one who broke up with her on mutual terms but he acts like Elena went out and slept with Damon behind his back or something. Imagine showing someone this scene blindly and pointing out, 'That's the good brother. He feels everyone's pain.' It's just ridiculous writing all around. Sometimes I have to wonder if they really meant to write Stefan so self-absorbed and delusional about himself and the people around him. I remember once we talked about the show ending with Stefan being a mental patient in a straight jacket relaying this story of his life and everything has been from his sick and twisted point of view. It would make a lot more sense to think the writing happened on purpose than that we really are supposed to believe he's this fantastic good person despite so much evidence to the contrary. But then we have Caroline who has acted like the sun rises and sets because of Stefan and I think, nope, the writing is probably just that bad and the delusional one is JP. I mean how does a person write a story so perfectly wrong so that everything being said is the opposite of the actual truth? It makes me scratch my head sometimes. As I've said before she's either a genius or the worst writer ever. Yeah I wish this was something that was leading to the plot twist of all time of this show but as you said, we just have to chalk it up to bad writing since we'll have things like the witches talk about how pure and good hearted Stefan is or other randoms that guest star for one episode stroking Stefan's ego and then the way JP talks about Stefan in interviews and her constant 'hero hair' phrase, she really believes that there's nothing wrong with the way that she's been writing Stefan and he's really this good, pure hearted hero character. She would personally have to hate Damon/Elena too if she doesn't find anything wrong or hypocritical about the stuff he says to them and like a typical Stefan stan, brush it off as if all is right. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 9:34:16 GMT -5
Remember that JP said her favorite character to write was Caroline and we can see how much that character is all about singing praises for Stefan and guilt tripping Elena about Stefan and being best friends with Stefan.
|
|
|
|
Post by missmystic on Jan 14, 2016 10:56:10 GMT -5
And just like that all the wounds are re-opened and raw. lol. I've often wondered why JP has failed to write Stefan multi-layered and instead has had PW play other characters instead. If Stefan is supposed to feel things more deeply, where is his guilt? Why don't we ever get to see it? The Rebekkah compulsion is in my top "things to hate about the writing on TVD." You have to tell the truth under compulsion. Stefan says they broke up because "she slept with Damon." That sentence means Stefan thinks they broke up BECAUSE she slept with Damon, which means he is delusional because they broke up and then she slept with Damon. He could have answered honestly that they broke up because she wanted to sleep with Damon, but instead they write it like we didn't see the scene on the porch. I think Delusional Stefan would be more interesting and less irritating.
This was my exact same reaction reading everyone's recent posts here lol.
I feel like this topic is just a constant thorn in our side, because there is no way to reconcile it. If I had any trust in JP that she really knew what she was doing, I would be 100% convinced that Stefan was a sociopath, and that it would all be laid out clearly by the end of the story. If Joss Whedon was writing this show, there would be not a shred of doubt that that's exactly what was going on. It's written so brilliantly, every little hint, every subtle clue. The way Stefan compulsively lies, even under compulsion. The way he lets little pieces of that part of him slip out every now and then when he's not being as guarded as usual (like the way he casually backhands Elena with his comments about "you don't know what I look like when I'm not in love with you"). Or how hard he works to keep his less than shining moments under wraps (like the fact that he never told anyone that Damon took the fall for him in killing Bonnie's mother, or when he told Elena that he could tell it was Katherine and not her, even though he had no idea until Caroline figured it out). Or the way he constantly brings up Damon's worst offenses and puts him down as a screw up and lacking morality, even though he claims to love him.
Its all this very carefully crafted web of control he's created in order to keep everyone around him seeing what he wants them to see. Its honestly terrifying, if it was all done on purpose. And it would be pretty spectacular writing that I would give a great deal of respect to.
HOWEVER ..... there is, unfortunately, no evidence to support the idea that JP is actually creating this storyline on purpose. At this point in time, I feel like I have no choice but to accept the fact that JP is the delusional one, and that she doesn't understand this story or these characters half as well as we would like her to. I can't even tell you how much I would love for her to surprise us all and prove me wrong. But it seems pretty unlikely at this point. I really think she just sucks.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 14, 2016 18:17:07 GMT -5
And just like that all the wounds are re-opened and raw. lol. I've often wondered why JP has failed to write Stefan multi-layered and instead has had PW play other characters instead. If Stefan is supposed to feel things more deeply, where is his guilt? Why don't we ever get to see it? The Rebekkah compulsion is in my top "things to hate about the writing on TVD." You have to tell the truth under compulsion. Stefan says they broke up because "she slept with Damon." That sentence means Stefan thinks they broke up BECAUSE she slept with Damon, which means he is delusional because they broke up and then she slept with Damon. He could have answered honestly that they broke up because she wanted to sleep with Damon, but instead they write it like we didn't see the scene on the porch. I think Delusional Stefan would be more interesting and less irritating.
This was my exact same reaction reading everyone's recent posts here lol.
I feel like this topic is just a constant thorn in our side, because there is no way to reconcile it. If I had any trust in JP that she really knew what she was doing, I would be 100% convinced that Stefan was a sociopath, and that it would all be laid out clearly by the end of the story. If Joss Whedon was writing this show, there would be not a shred of doubt that that's exactly what was going on. It's written so brilliantly, every little hint, every subtle clue. The way Stefan compulsively lies, even under compulsion. The way he lets little pieces of that part of him slip out every now and then when he's not being as guarded as usual (like the way he casually backhands Elena with his comments about "you don't know what I look like when I'm not in love with you"). Or how hard he works to keep his less than shining moments under wraps (like the fact that he never told anyone that Damon took the fall for him in killing Bonnie's mother, or when he told Elena that he could tell it was Katherine and not her, even though he had no idea until Caroline figured it out). Or the way he constantly brings up Damon's worst offenses and puts him down as a screw up and lacking morality, even though he claims to love him.
Its all this very carefully crafted web of control he's created in order to keep everyone around him seeing what he wants them to see. Its honestly terrifying, if it was all done on purpose. And it would be pretty spectacular writing that I would give a great deal of respect to.
HOWEVER ..... there is, unfortunately, no evidence to support the idea that JP is actually creating this storyline on purpose. At this point in time, I feel like I have no choice but to accept the fact that JP is the delusional one, and that she doesn't understand this story or these characters half as well as we would like her to. I can't even tell you how much I would love for her to surprise us all and prove me wrong. But it seems pretty unlikely at this point. I really think she just sucks.
Yeah that's the sad, but it seems by now, obvious, truth of it. It's all just accidentally poor writing and there is no reason for any of it other than a complete lack of continuity of the story. This shows in so many other ways as well so that now we know it isn't intentional, but yeah, it would be brilliant if that was the end game, to show that all of this came out of Stefan's head and is from his own twisted perspective. Oh well, that's what fan fictions are for I guess...lol |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 18:57:40 GMT -5
And just like that all the wounds are re-opened and raw. lol. I've often wondered why JP has failed to write Stefan multi-layered and instead has had PW play other characters instead. If Stefan is supposed to feel things more deeply, where is his guilt? Why don't we ever get to see it? The Rebekkah compulsion is in my top "things to hate about the writing on TVD." You have to tell the truth under compulsion. Stefan says they broke up because "she slept with Damon." That sentence means Stefan thinks they broke up BECAUSE she slept with Damon, which means he is delusional because they broke up and then she slept with Damon. He could have answered honestly that they broke up because she wanted to sleep with Damon, but instead they write it like we didn't see the scene on the porch. I think Delusional Stefan would be more interesting and less irritating.
This was my exact same reaction reading everyone's recent posts here lol.
I feel like this topic is just a constant thorn in our side, because there is no way to reconcile it. If I had any trust in JP that she really knew what she was doing, I would be 100% convinced that Stefan was a sociopath, and that it would all be laid out clearly by the end of the story. If Joss Whedon was writing this show, there would be not a shred of doubt that that's exactly what was going on. It's written so brilliantly, every little hint, every subtle clue. The way Stefan compulsively lies, even under compulsion. The way he lets little pieces of that part of him slip out every now and then when he's not being as guarded as usual (like the way he casually backhands Elena with his comments about "you don't know what I look like when I'm not in love with you"). Or how hard he works to keep his less than shining moments under wraps (like the fact that he never told anyone that Damon took the fall for him in killing Bonnie's mother, or when he told Elena that he could tell it was Katherine and not her, even though he had no idea until Caroline figured it out). Or the way he constantly brings up Damon's worst offenses and puts him down as a screw up and lacking morality, even though he claims to love him.
Its all this very carefully crafted web of control he's created in order to keep everyone around him seeing what he wants them to see. Its honestly terrifying, if it was all done on purpose. And it would be pretty spectacular writing that I would give a great deal of respect to.
HOWEVER ..... there is, unfortunately, no evidence to support the idea that JP is actually creating this storyline on purpose. At this point in time, I feel like I have no choice but to accept the fact that JP is the delusional one, and that she doesn't understand this story or these characters half as well as we would like her to. I can't even tell you how much I would love for her to surprise us all and prove me wrong. But it seems pretty unlikely at this point. I really think she just sucks.
It is terrifying as you put it. Stefan is a straight up compulsive liar. He bends the truth in every situation so that he comes out looking good in the end. Like you said it's almost written brilliantly with every little piece falling into place. The implications have been there since season 1. It sounds almost rehearsed. 'I don't hurt people. I don't do that I'm the good brother.' You don't say you're 'something' unless you're trying to convince yourself of that. As in a good person doesn't have to come up to you and say, 'Hey nice to meet you! I'm a good person!' lol. It shows through your actions, not your words. This is the segment that took place before the former. It really matches up with your remark of how hard he works to keep his less than shining moments under wraps. Here he mentions how drinking the human blood has been screwing with his head and how how, 'She knows now. She wasn't supposed to find out. I didn't want her to find out now everything is ruined.'Again he really sounds like a calculated psychopath and this was from the first season. You can also feel signs of the ripper from his words before that ever came into play. It's almost sad, this was a brilliantly acted moment by Paul Wesley, and it made Stefan interesting. But JP never capitialized on that. Heck, now it seems like Stefan doesn't even have much of a problem when it comes to blood anymore. None of us would have any problem if Stefan did have some form of psychological problem like that. We could care less if he was portrayed less than perfect. The main issue of concern is that he gets away with habitual lying, puts his revenge before people close to him multiple times, and gets lines where he puts down other characters/defame their character etc. without any form of consequence and at the end of the day, he's still praised as the pure hearted/hero of the story. It's so aggravating. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 19:06:34 GMT -5
And then when you think about Damon's speech in 1x22, which is the complete contrast of Stefan's 1x19 speech. I can see how in the moment, before any other seasons were even made at that point, one could think, oh I see! So the good brother is actually the 'bad' one, while the bad one is actually the 'good' one. I mean things synced up that well too bad the writing just turned out lackluster in the end to even grasp such a concept.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Jan 14, 2016 21:42:06 GMT -5
Oftentimes they tell you a lot about a character in the very first episode and this is what Stefan said:
Stefan: "I had a plan. I wanted to change who I was. Create a life with someone new, someone without the past."
Stefan: "Someone alive."
Right from the beginning it was all about Stefan and what HE wanted for himself. He didn't even care that he was risking Elena's life and complicating it in ways that would change her forever all for the sake of 'pretending' he was something he wasn't...
Stefan: "I shouldn't have come home. I know the risk, but I had no choice. I have to know her."
He had to know her because she looked just like Katherine and for no other reason. He didn't care about Elena when he made that decision. In contrast Damon met her, too, and he left her alone on that road and wished for her to have the life she wanted, the life that she deserved...even then when we were supposed to believe Damon was evil and Stefan was good, Damon did the right thing and Stefan didn't.
Stefan: "I lost control today. Everything I've kept buried inside came rushing to the surface. I'm simply not able to resist her."
He didn't even know if he would be able to resist hurting her but he takes that risk anyway...right from episode one he was really NOT behaving as a hero would behave.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 21:59:33 GMT -5
Oftentimes they tell you a lot about a character in the very first episode and this is what Stefan said: Stefan: "I had a plan. I wanted to change who I was. Create a life with someone new, someone without the past." Stefan: "Someone alive." Right from the beginning it was all about Stefan and what HE wanted for himself. He didn't even care that he was risking Elena's life and complicating it in ways that would change her forever all for the sake of 'pretending' he was something he wasn't... Stefan: "I shouldn't have come home. I know the risk, but I had no choice. I have to know her." He had to know her because she looked just like Katherine and for no other reason. He didn't care about Elena when he made that decision. In contrast Damon met her, too, and he left her alone on that road and wished for her to have the life she wanted, the life that she deserved...even then when we were supposed to believe Damon was evil and Stefan was good, Damon did the right thing and Stefan didn't. Stefan: "I lost control today. Everything I've kept buried inside came rushing to the surface. I'm simply not able to resist her." He didn't even know if he would be able to resist hurting her but he takes that risk anyway...right from episode one he was really NOT behaving as a hero would behave. I like how the first statement about him having a plan falls in line with his statement in 1x19 when everything started falling apart, 'She knows now. She wasn't supposed to find out. I didn't want her to find out now everything is ruined.' Really as mentioned, it's crazy how things just seem to line up as if this was the plan all along. It's not even about Elena, it's more about him at the end of the day. It's just asinine how the things Stefan says just never get questioned or addressed ever. Even Stefan himself doesn't question any of this almost psychopathic like behavior. Which again shows that's it's all just stupidly coincidental. And as missmystic says, this will just be a thorn in our side and it'd be a miracle to expect the ending to come all together and address any of this behavior and chalk it up to some form of psychological problem. None of the characters on the show even think something is wrong with Stefan so the ending arc for Stefan's character will just be unsatisfactory as he rides off into the sunset with Caroline lol. |
|
|
|
Post by vampirelust on Apr 24, 2016 6:24:11 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I had a good old Stefan rant, so I'm hoping this will be cathartic.
He has got to be the worst character on this show now. I always knew he was a douche, but this episode just highlighted everything about him that I hate. This miserable, petty side of Stefan has been usually kept for Damon's benefit or hidden behind his various incarnations of Ripper/No humanity/ amnesia Stefan. He let it out in front of Elena when she dumped him a couple of times "You don't know what I look like when I'm not in love with you"
"You managed to use that Sire bond pretty well so far Damon", but mostly he hides his nastiness behind fake compassion and humility.
He is more selfish than Damon, he uses people for his own ends far more than Damon ever did, and discards them when they no longer meet his needs or feed his ego. Elena, Ivy, Caroline, Matt, Bonnie.
His pretend human life with Elena revolved around Elena. His fake friendships with others crumbled when they split up, because Stefan couldn't be bothered to maintain them outside of Elena. Caroline stood by him, she sought him out and defended him, because she was in love him, but he discarded her and her friendship when he couldn't deal when Damon died.
I honestly do not get him. What the hell does he want from Damon? He doesn't want him around, he doesn't want him to die, but he doesn't want him to dessicate, but he wants him to save his life. Damon can't win here, because Stefan will never be happy. Damon has rectified his wrongs and Stefan is still not happy. Damon needs to stop trying to be "worthy" of Stefan, because Stefan will only ever see himself as worthy and good.
He has zero self awareness about his actions, and has expectations of forgiveness before earning it every single time. He is an entitled brat, and his conversation with Ric was just so arrogant it was cringe worthy. I loved Ric's head butt, it has been the only time I've agreed with Ric in a long time.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Apr 24, 2016 8:42:35 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I had a good old Stefan rant, so I'm hoping this will be cathartic. He has got to be the worst character on this show now. I always knew he was a douche, but this episode just highlighted everything about him that I hate. This miserable, petty side of Stefan has been usually kept for Damon's benefit or hidden behind his various incarnations of Ripper/No humanity/ amnesia Stefan. He let it out in front of Elena when she dumped him a couple of times "You don't know what I look like when I'm not in love with you" "You managed to use that Sire bond pretty well so far Damon", but mostly he hides his nastiness behind fake compassion and humility. He is more selfish than Damon, he uses people for his own ends far more than Damon ever did, and discards them when they no longer meet his needs or feed his ego. Elena, Ivy, Caroline, Matt, Bonnie. His pretend human life with Elena revolved around Elena. His fake friendships with others crumbled when they split up, because Stefan couldn't be bothered to maintain them outside of Elena. Caroline stood by him, she sought him out and defended him, because she was in love him, but he discarded her and her friendship when he couldn't deal when Damon died. I honestly do not get him. What the hell does he want from Damon? He doesn't want him around, he doesn't want him to die, but he doesn't want him to dessicate, but he wants him to save his life. Damon can't win here, because Stefan will never be happy. Damon has rectified his wrongs and Stefan is still not happy. Damon needs to stop trying to be "worthy" of Stefan, because Stefan will only ever see himself as worthy and good. He has zero self awareness about his actions, and has expectations of forgiveness before earning it every single time. He is an entitled brat, and his conversation with Ric was just so arrogant it was cringe worthy. I loved Ric's head butt, it has been the only time I've agreed with Ric in a long time. I know Stefan is the WORST. I hated that whole Stefan/Alaric interaction actually. Alaric had no right to control Caroline like he was trying to do and Stefan's douchiness came out to play. I do think it's great that other characters are starting to see his BAD side and maybe that's a good thing. Matt hates him now and unless they scapegoat Stefan out of it, he killed Penny. So far in this series he has killed a lot of people and never paid any price for it so I hope he finally has to pay for this death. I hope that this arc isn't only about showing that Damon can do good things for others but that Stefan can do bad things and isn't the saint some of them believed. I can hope anyway! If any one of them realizes that I will be happy about that. For now everyone seems to be starting to hate on the both of them so hopefully that doesn't mean the Salvatores eventually leave town never to be heard from again and chalk it up to not being able to play well with others...lol If that's the endgame I will be pissed! |
|
|
|
Post by vampirelust on Apr 24, 2016 13:14:52 GMT -5
I think Stefan is the character that has got away with the most so far. Damon always has to pay his bills one way or another, he can't breathe without getting grief from somebody these days.
|
|
