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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Nov 10, 2012 18:56:52 GMT -5
 Amen Slash! Elena did NOTHING wrong with killing Conner and I'm sick of TVD making her all saint like. She didn't even transition right. I mean she transitioned with "dead blood". Nice COP OUT! Why does she get to transition easier than lets say Stefan or Damon. Anyway besides the point, Conner was an ASS! He did horrible things. He tried to kill all of the men she loves in MYSTIC. Jeremy, Stefan, Damon, Matt and Tyler. I mean this guy if he knew would have tried to kill her and I'm sure Care too. I'm sorry but she should have felt more guilt when her STUPID decision to go with Klaus's plan backfired and he turned Aunt Jenna then killed her. That and maybe how John died so she wouldn't be a vampire. I don't know those situations require horrible guilt but we barely saw any. The writers need to get on this because they are making her character too questionable.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2012 19:04:20 GMT -5
I do not think that Stefan would chose to feed off the vein even if he could. I think he might do it, but I think he would choose blood bags over vein. That's just my opinion.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Nov 10, 2012 19:28:47 GMT -5
We cant really say either way. I mean if he was able to have done it right off the jump you might see a different Stefan than you see today. Actually I'd bet you would. If Stefan could have adjusted the way Damon did his outlook might not be the same.
I mean Stefan really has never talked about if he was able to do it normal he would...... fill in the blank. Stefan does what he does because he cant be a normal vampire. He doesn't even know how it feels to be a normal vampire.
But I still stand by the fact that drinking off the vein without taking a life doesn't make them immoral. It makes them a normal vampire. If they chose to drink blood bags then it's because they don't want to bite people and compel people. That might make them more humane. But when it comes to their nature they are completely normal.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 10, 2012 19:30:49 GMT -5
That's just it, it's just an opinion that Stefan would drink from blood bags but there is no basis to back it up. It is natural for a vampire to feed off humans. Now we have a batch of civilized vampires drinking primarily from blood bags on the show but most of them with the exception of Stefan still drink human blood. Part of that came from not being detected as vampires in town, not necessarily from believing it was morally wrong as long as they don't kill. The whole moral thing becomes subjective, just as it does in our real lives so I think it's a slippery slope to go down. We could also say it's morally wrong to drink blood from wildlife. They are living creatures too, and it hurts them just the same as humans. See what I mean?
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Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 10, 2012 19:36:09 GMT -5
But now, I just have to say this also, playing devil's advocate with your argument. If you believe that Stefan thinks drinking from the vein is immoral then do you think then that he thinks Elena is immoral? Because then that brings this entire conversation back to the first post about how he feels about Elena now. Because you can't have it both ways, either he thinks it's immoral for all or he doesn't think it's immoral and if he does think it's immoral then he would definitely have issues with Elena going forward. Yes, he might always love her, but he might not be able to be with her anymore as a vampire and maybe that does explain why he's so hellbent on finding a cure at all costs, but let's not be mistaken then, that alot of it is about him and not her, in that case.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Nov 10, 2012 20:20:29 GMT -5
Peta would agree with you.  They would have rolled into mystic and floured his ass already.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2012 23:26:22 GMT -5
I am not suuuuure I believe Stefan thinks it is immoral but given the two options I guess I in my vision of Stefan is tgat him and the rest of clan would prefer bags out of pure ease. I mean I would not kill a chicken and eat it. I would not even watch a chicken get killed by someone else and eat it, but I eat chicken. I do not think it is wrong to eat chicken (that are treated properly) and same with other meat. I would say the blood bags are like that. It is easier and less in your face of what you are actually doing.
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Post by Ruby2579 on Nov 11, 2012 0:25:41 GMT -5
I dont think Stefan would think its immoral but more better in the sense they are not killing anyone. As someone posted being a civilized vampire.
I think what Teppy was trying to say about the Morals of Damon was that Damon loved Katherine so much there was no limit. he was willing to break his moral boundaries for her and do anything. Example the helping trap her midnight dinner and then kissing her with blood all over her face.
Human stefan wouldn't had done that. Hell if he wasnt compelled who knows if he wouldve pulled a matt and been like na no thank you lol
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Post by Slash on Nov 11, 2012 1:48:11 GMT -5
Amen Slash! Elena did NOTHING wrong with killing Conner and I'm sick of TVD making her all saint like. She didn't even transition right. I mean she transitioned with "dead blood". Nice COP OUT! Why does she get to transition easier than lets say Stefan or Damon. Anyway besides the point, Conner was an ASS! He did horrible things. He tried to kill all of the men she loves in MYSTIC. Jeremy, Stefan, Damon, Matt and Tyler. I mean this guy if he knew would have tried to kill her and I'm sure Care too. I'm sorry but she should have felt more guilt when her STUPID decision to go with Klaus's plan backfired and he turned Aunt Jenna then killed her. That and maybe how John died so she wouldn't be a vampire. I don't know those situations require horrible guilt but we barely saw any. The writers need to get on this because they are making her character too questionable. They need to find out what side of the fence Elena is walking. We're supposed to believe she's this good person but she has these flashes of being manipulative (she's done it to Damon, she's done it to others to get info/her way) and these pimp slaps of being just outright blindly stupid in decisions that will clearly lead to others stepping in to protect her cause of her own actions. I'm tired of hearing the 'she's young' excuse. Being 'young' isn't an excuse for lack of common sense. And really? A breakdown over Connor's death? She was just ready to kill Bekah a few episodes back because she was being a 'mean girl' with the high school hijinks. Bekah half-assedly tried to kill Elena (alignment of the planets and whatnot in that actually succeeding) but she's pretty much had the same "I'm pissed/bratty"/I really don't care attitude but Elena was ready to kill her. She kills Connor who did and had intentions to continue to do harm to her and her friends but I guess if she was 'OK' with killing this ass clown, we'd view it as her enjoying what she was. Right? Writers? Get your s*** and get out. I don't buy none of this. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 11, 2012 8:03:40 GMT -5
Since Damon's morals keep coming into this conversation, I wanted to say I don't think he actually enjoyed that midnight feeding trip with Katherine. I mean you could tell by the look on his face he was grossed out by it and unsure of the whole thing but he did love Katherine and that was part of who Katherine was and like Elena, he accepted her as she was. He only wanted to turn to be with Katherine. Damon seemed to me to be somewhat naive back then. As Katherine said, Sweet and Innocent.
Ironically it seemed like Stefan enjoyed being a vampire more at first while Damon had changed his mind, thinking Katherine was dead and didn't want to be a vampire at all if she was not going to be with him. She made him believe that they would be together forever and that was the only reason he was willing to turn and deal with feeding off humans. In other words she tricked him into it under false pretenses. It reminds me of Lexi's boyfriend how he turned to be with Lexi forever. If you truly loved a vampire don't you think that would be a very serious option to consider especially if they were making promises of forever?
As for Stefan it seems to me he was afraid of Katherine when he found out she was a vampire, so she compelled that out of him, but she didn't compel him to love her.
At first Damon did not get any enjoyment out of feeding off people as we see when he met Sage that he felt it was just a necessary thing to survive and it was. I don't think it was so easy to get access to blood bags for most of their lives either so it wasn't an option. They had no choice.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2012 9:37:24 GMT -5
I think we actually are saying the same things in different ways. I may say it more harshly because Damon is not my favorite character (don't get me wrong I like him and in the last episode I actually enjoyed many of his one liners), but the way I word things about his character and his morals will not side in his favor because I do not really care how it sounds. Stefan on the other hand is my favorite character and if Bonnie was brought up in the conversation it would be the same thing. I care about Stefan how is talked about because he is my fave and I think he is often misinterpreted. I am sure many of you feel thte same way about Damon. I read back at many of the statements and to me that what seems like... like we change the wording , but not really the meaning.
I actually think Elena breaking down over Conner was appropriate though. It was not that it was Conner it was that she was able to kill someone like she did. It was defense, but it wasn't. She probably had a right to do, but the humane side of her was telling her that it was wrong. Whether it was wrong or not only Elena can decide that. Only Elena can say if she morally thought it was wrong for her to do. By her reaction she thought so or was just shocked she could do it to easily. Now, I do think the end was dream manipulation by Katherine. I am not sure she even took that shower--she may have, but we know Katherine likes to get inside peoples heads and that has Katherine dream manip all over it.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 11, 2012 10:16:09 GMT -5
Very well put. Yes we do spin it differently depending on which character we are talking about and how much we like them. I think in the end we know that they both (Stefan and Damon) never wanted to have to feed off humans. While Damon had his, don't care if I kill you, period, so did Stefan when he repeatedly went Ripper over the years.
Now really, they are both trying to minimize hurting and/or killing people to feed. Unfortunately, Elena is stuck having to feed from the vein so Damon was trying to teach her in the best way he knew how so that she wasn't completely horrified by having to do it and he was successful in that. She has to, to survive, so it may as well be done in as pleasant a way as possible.
Damon having done it for a good long time and not enjoying it understands where she is at right now. It wasn't until Sage came along that Damon learned that it didn't have to be a horrible thing to have to do. Morals kind of had to get pushed aside in light of survival so that's always how I think about it when it comes to vampires and what they need to do. Blood bags didn't come into being really plentiful until the late 1970's, early 80's.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Nov 11, 2012 10:18:43 GMT -5
As for Katherine, it doesn't appear that this is a trick of hers given that Klaus talked about the hallucinations as a result of killing a Hunter, which he killed all five of them so I think her hallucinations are because of that and not Katherine playing around. In fact, it's possible Katherine can help her adapt since she also was a Doppelganger. Now whether she will or not is another thing.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Nov 11, 2012 17:10:04 GMT -5
I still think it's silly for her to break down over Conner. He was just as bad as klaus, Luca's dad, the tomb vamps or any other threat they tried to kill or killed to save someone. I get being upset at the shock of snapping a throat but to be ok with everyone else killing to protect others then acting like when u did it, it somehow meant something more bc ur so humane is ridiculous. Maybe being shocked that she did it but come on. It was dramatic. And it was about her not the loss of life bc if it was about Conner than regardless if she did it or not she wld have reacted that way over every characters death like mason. She didn't even bat an eye over his or The tomb vamps. It's only sad when she has to snap the neck. Yes sure it's traumatizing but how did she get to live this far? People had to die and other people had to do the killing. Like slash said she was all about killing Bekah and that was in anger over her being a vamp. Conner has tried to kill every man she loves in mystic! Get over it Elena! And I love Elena! She is one of my faves. But I have to call her on it too!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2012 17:52:33 GMT -5
As for Katherine, it doesn't appear that this is a trick of hers given that Klaus talked about the hallucinations as a result of killing a Hunter, which he killed all five of them so I think her hallucinations are because of that and not Katherine playing around. In fact, it's possible Katherine can help her adapt since she also was a Doppelganger. Now whether she will or not is another thing. I totally forgot about that. I would love a Kat and Elena team up-- get the boys out of a it little and get some girl power in the show. |
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