"I'm fine with her either way."

[Deleted]

This quote rubbed me the wrong way and I will explain why.

Damon starts the conversation

Why do you want to cure her? (okay confusing for me and obviously Stefan)--- Is he really insinuating that Stefan intentions are selfish?

Then he goes further and asks STEFAN if he can't love her if she is one. --- REALLY? I mean that seems a little far fetched given everything, but fine he is being protective of Elena.--NOW stefan could have been mad because if you were in Stefan's shoes and your own brother was questioning your love for a girl that you have basically done everything for. Stefan told Elena that he had thought about her being a vampire and how if it was his choice he would want to be with her forever. DAMON asked him he could not love her this way and Stefan calmly, not offended. although he had every right to be, explains himself. he says,

"I will ALWAYS love her, but she is not meant to be this way. I don't want her to be"--TRANSLATION- I love her enough to know this life is not her. He will love her vampire or not, but he does not want to see the person he loves unhappy, just surviving, not ever truly happy because she hates who she is-- like Stefan-- he does not want the person he loves to end up like him.

Then Damon goes " I am fine with her either way brother." Insinuating that Stefan is not "fine" with her either way. Stefan is "fine" with her either way too.

I like that he said he was doing it for Stefan and I get that is what the writers wanted to end with, but they could made it less about who loves her more and more about THEM. I just want to see a brother moment between them that is not Elena focused. That is them focused.

What are your thoughts on this scene? Am I too protective of Stefan? Was this just poorly written?

[Ruby2579]

Ive been thinking about this scene for a while too. And although the words Stefan says sounds selfish (I dont want her to be) damn you writers..lol I do not think he meant it in a selfish way.

He knows how much Elena did not want to become this person. He knew it since she thought she was going to turn in season two.

He doesnt want this life for her if she cant come to terms about it. We have been reminded over and over by her confirming her feelings. The diary writing. Even after she was with Damon in the party. SHE didnt tell stefan she didnt enjoy it. She told him youre right i got caught up in it. That although she was having fun...i think bonnie or no bonnie there she would have snapped back to reality eventually and freaked out no matter what bc her emotions wouldve kicked in.

Damon wants her to accept it and move on with it. So do i dear lol and I think thats where Damon is coming from. He will love her human...vampire or full on vampire and believes they can bring her back. But Stefan knows her well. He has been saying it from the beginning of the season.

If she kills someone...its going to destroy her bc shes full of compassion etc etc Damon said lets just get it over with.

When she killed Conner she freaked out. She is still grieving everyone who has died and she just added to the list.

You saw her pain and stefan and Damon saw it too. Damon looked destraught but Stefan saw it coming. He knew it would end up happening he just didnt want that for her to feel the guilt and the pain.

[Doppelgänger]

I don't think anyone who first turned, at least anyone with any humanity to begin with, enjoys being a vampire at first. Elena is no different right now as a baby vamp, but it's possible even with this cure out there that she will remain a vampire and that is the line of thinking Damon has, in that it would be great if she could turn back but that is no sure thing and in the meantime she needs to learn to deal with what being a vampire means and adjust to it, accept it and learn to live with it.

Stefan never has learned to live with it. He still doesn't accept it so when he does get a taste of the blood he can't control himself because he never learned how. Damon doesn't want that to happen to Elena, but Stefan does not understand because he never learned it properly himself.

Some people have been saying Damon is awful for taking Elena to that party and feeding off people. Maybe they don't remember that Damon has been on blood bags for a while now so the only reason he did it was to be there for Elena to help her learn how to feed in the only way she is able to feed and try to make it fun and guilt free so she could see that it doesn't have to be a horrible experience. Some people also don't remember that Damon said he missed being human. Damon never wanted to be a vampire either but he had to learn to live with it and control it and he has.

So, I think that conversation was multi-faceted. Damon recognizes that Stefan never learned to accept, live with and control his vampirism. He doesn't accept himself, so Damon naturally wondered if he would be able to accept Elena as a vampire. To me it seems as if Stefan is projecting his own fears and issues onto Elena when he says she can't handle it.

Elena is a strong woman. She has survived things most people would have buckled under and I think she is fully capable of surviving this, learning to adapt and deal with it in whatever way she finds that makes her feel comfortable with it. Whether it be, seeking out the guilty, like the boy at the party to feed on or whatever.

Elena will survive and Damon will help her survive and no matter how dark it gets with her, Damon will still love her and be there for her. Stefan loves her, too, but it's like he told Caroline it is hard for him to be around her now because it might trigger the Ripper and so he can't fully be there with her without risking going off the rails. This is a major problem for him, so naturally he is motivated to find a cure.

I personally believe that Stefan is having a crisis when it comes to Elena. He wants to be able to love her like this, but he can't be around her like this. That's a big problem in a relationship if you can't be there for the person who is struggling with something. He can't help her learn to feed and to control herself because he doesn't know how. He will never be able to be around her when she's feeding without possibly losing it. Big problem!

As for what he said, nobody was meant to be that way, not just Elena. Being a vampire isn't exactly a natural thing to be for anyone who was human once, so his statement could apply to any human turned vampire. But most of them do learn to adapt and so can she.

Now for the controversial part of my opinion, I believe that when Stefan said he would always love her, it felt like when someone loses someone and they say that. They will always love that person, BUT things changed and they had to move on. I think Damon picked up on the meaning behind his words, thus his response.

He knows his brother better than anyone and he apparently doesn't believe Stefan can love her as a vampire. Stefan is singularly motivated to find that cure, even risking Jeremy's life to keep the Hunter alive and teaming up with Klaus. He isn't JUST doing it for Elena, because:

A/ He hasn't even talked to her about it and whether or not she'd really want it.

B/ He is willing to risk everything for it, even Jeremy's life, not even knowing for sure that she'd want it.

C/ Knows Klaus is only in this to get his Doppelganger blood back thus basically making Elena his blood slave.

So, if he's just doing it for Elena, why would he risk Jeremy like that knowing she would never want that? He's doing it for himself as well, and he's doing it to keep Elena because if he can't live around her and her vampirism then their relationship is as good as dead and he knows it.

[Deleted]

I agree with portions of what you said Doppel BUT with all that being said if there was a way for her NOT to have survive it deal with it handle it or whatever why would you want her to? I mean if you loved her. If she wanted, like everyone else on the show, to have a human life.

That is why I was annoyed. Of course Stefan will accept it and of course he will love her even though BUT why not have hope for her not to have live like Damon and him? Why not try fight for her to have the best life, the life she wanted? Stefan has seen what being a vampire did to him and to Damon and so has Elena. Elena saw the good in both of them and still did not want that life. Even though she loved them. Even though she be with Stefan forever. She wanted to be human. I am all with Stefan wanting keep hope for that for her. I am with Stefan saying that she was not meant to be a vampire (even if that applies to everyone).

I do not agree that Stefan can't be around Elena with how she is without going off the deep end, but I do think he would never be able to enjoy it because of his morals, which is why Elena can;t enjoy it either. I mean Damon, as a human, helped Katherine kill two people on the side of the road. You can say his morals have always been a little skewed when it comes to love.

Plus this whole theory in her needing to feed on people because of the doppleganger thing doesn't make any sense. I would also be trying to figure that out too. I know some people think Elena was hallucinating Katherine but I think Katherine was manipulating her dreams. I think that was most def. Katherine in the previews and I will be happy to get more insight on why Elena can't feed on blood bags.

[Slash]

The way it was written on Stefan's end made it sound selfish. We know he was the one who knew Elena didn't want this life, that she wanted a family and to grow old and we know he feels he's responsible in part for this happening to Elena (although pretty much everyone plays a role in it happening).

So I think in some regard, it does sound selfish/look a bit different cause Damon wants Elena to just accept it already (as do I) and get used to it. Look at the good with the bad and make the most of what you are now. Damon loves her either way, Stefan does too but as a Vampire, she complicates things for him and their relationship and he knows (and everyone knows) this isn't the life she wants.

Don't care for the 'not meant to be this way' line. That goes for *ALL* of them. The Originals didn't want this, their parents did this to them and created Vampires. Katherine turned cause she was trying to get away from Klaus and void her use to him. Damon & Stefan didn't want this but it happened. Caroline was blindsided by it as well. So the whole 'not meant to be thing' is kind of 'please shut up' moment for me cause none of them chose it but those like the Originals (sans Finn), Damon, Katherine and Caroline have made the most of what they are now. They may miss certain aspects of being human or have their own 'Vampire problems' but they're holding it together pretty well and making good for themselves for what they've become (like Caroline being a better person as a Vampire).

I do agree that they should have just made this a Salvatore brother moment but you know these Writers: got to throw Elena in there to but them at odds somehow. It would have been a fine episode on the brother front if they left Elena out of this particular conversation and steered it elsewhere. Stefan wants to bring Damon into the Klaus plan cause he knows he needs the help, Damon had caught onto the Stefan-Klaus pairing earlier in the episode and Stefan puts Damon down, Damon reaches into Stefan's chest and when Damon finds out what's the end game, he relents and tells him he'll help because of Stefan. I'm really just kind of tired of this pissing match that's thrown in between the brothers over Elena.

[Deleted]

Well said. I do as I said above believe it is still worth fighting for if it is in arms reach, but now that Jeremy is the new hunter I don't think it is worth hurting Jeremy or anyone else close to Elena to get it because that won't make her happy either.

I too am very sick of the writers giving us these Defan moments just to ruin them with throwing some triangle talk in the midst of it.

[Sweetluv4DE]

DOPPEL beautiful post!

I just want to come in here and say first I'm not here to fight. This is truly just my opinion and I invite anyone to debate it.

So now that I said that I will have to disagree on some things. Stefan does love Elena and he will always love Elena no matter who she is or what she is but is it the same kind of love? I don't think so. I don't think Stefan can give Elena the same kind of love or love her the same way that he does or did when she was human now that she is a vampire. This is why I think he is "more" desperate to find the cure. Not only to turn her human because he knows she wants to be human but because lets face it, he is doing it more because he fears his feelings for her will change if she stays a vampire.

All Damon did was recognize that. Like Doppel said Damon knows his brother better than anyone and I think he knows his love for Elena pretty well. Damon watched Stefan desperately try to find the cure even teaming up with Klaus, keeping it a secret and vervaining Damon trying to find the cure. Damon has seen a change in Stefan that I have seen. It's a subtle change that I believe the writers have intentionally placed there to show that there is a difference in this Stefan toward this Elena than this Stefan towards human Elena. Damon has picked up on it and as his brother and as a man who loves Elena just as much as Stefan does he wants to protect both. That is why he asked the question and that is why he agreed to help his brother. She picked Stefan. Damon got crushed. If he can see perhaps a change in his brother toward the woman he loves he has a right to ask. Especially after EVERYTHING they have been through.

By him telling Stefan he likes her either way is showing Stefan exactly what Doppel said. He's letting Stefan know it's ok to like/love her this way. That at the end of the day deep down she is still Elena. I don't think he was essentially trying to say "You don't" "I do". I think he was trying to show him it's ok to love her both ways and to not feel guilty about it. Remember he doesn't even think the cure is real but he said he would do this suicide mission for Stefan. Stefan after Damon said that didn't say anything back not because he was mad and was holding back his anger to be the "bigger" person. That was never expressed through his face/body or emotions.

Stefan Felt plain guilty and Damon knew it and that is why Damon told him what he did. Damon knows Stefan has reservations and concerns. He knows Stefan deep down doesn't want this for Elena not just for Elena but for also he doesn't want this for him.

This is the buildup to the SE breakup. SE is going to breakup and right now the writers are telling us this story. They are showing Stefan's doubts and his desperation to hold onto a human Elena. His doubts and feelings will ultimately be the thing that tears them apart. I don't think we are imagining this from Stefan. The writers have been showing it to us. They have been showing this guilt, rift, desperation, sadness, hesitation in Stefan when it comes to Elena.

I think the reason for all of it is essentially to slowly pull SE apart. We know they breakup and they have to have a slow progression to that breakup and this is it. Now whether or not I feel like Stefan is being selfish is my own opinion. I do think a part of him is being selfish. His entire motivation in all of this is not purely and innocently just about Elena. There are parts of this that scream ME, I WANT. And whenever you are going out of your way to do something that benefits another yet you include your wants and needs it's selfishness. It might not be a horrible thing but it is selfishness none the less. Your intentions maybe so good but if you include your wants and needs in another persons lively-hood it is what it is.

At the end of the day Elena isn't dead. She is alive. Focus on that make her the best vampire she can be while looking for a cure. Make her happy now. Don't let her be miserable, show her this life can be good too. Don't put all your eggs in one CURE basket that you might never find. Have a plan A. Plan A should be make Elena the best vamp. Help her adjust. Plan B should be the cure.

Stefan is putting the cure first and Elena the vamp second essentially.

[Sweetluv4DE]

In regards to Slash and the last conversation between Damon and Stefan... I don't think it was a bad conversation. I think Damon was asking him not to start an argument and told him how he felt not to show him he was the better choice and that Stefan sucked. I think Damon asked to bring out Stefan's true feelings. Look this didn't come out of left field. He had been reading Stefan's diary too. So the question was legit after that day and after reading his diary. I seriously think Damon was concerned and I think it hurts him that he loves this girl who chose his brother and all he wants to do is help her while his brother broods over how "she wasn't supposed to be this" and "I don't want it for her" attitude. I think he really was trying to get Stefan to be honest about it. I liked the convo. At least they are talking about it. They aren't keeping it from each other and they are being honest with one another. That is the problem with the Salvatores and their pissing match over Elena they are always assuming and keeping secrets. They are always walking on eggs shells and swimming past the issues. They never just sit down and have a conversation. AN HONEST conversation. To me this was as honest as they have been with one another since Elena changed. I enjoyed that convo so much just the way it was.

[Slash]

I actually entirely forgot about Damon reading Stefan's journal That's part of what prompted the question/discussion for them so yes, it is nice to see some honesty between them but I wish it was over 'more' than just Elena or her being the centerpiece of discussion for them. They're brothers, they have a lot of crap between them over the past century and I guess I'd like to see them clear the air on non-Elena stuff of all things. Elena keeps a lot of the bad blood going between them and I find it a bit much that she ends up being the piece that gives them these moments of 'come-togetherness/understanding'.

"Hey Damon, remember when you did ____ to me back in 19xx? Lets talk about that."
"Ok Stefan. If we talk about that, I want to talk about when you ______."
"Fair enough."

I hate The Elena Diaries Thank God Katherine is coming back though.

[Deleted]

I agree I can't wait for Katherine to come back. Maybe it will lessen the blow if this a build to an SE break up. I sure hope not. Especially if it is for the reasons stated above. I think it would completely go against the SE love story, but that's just an SE fan talking . Does anyone remember what Klaus said about Damon in the beg. of the episode?

[Doppelgänger]

I think it's highly possible that they are using the cure storyline to break up SE and I'll tell you why. Stefan, when he gets a plan in his head, will go like a bull in a china shop to reach his goal. We saw it in the end of season 3 when he was willing to sacrifice everything to get revenge on Klaus and that was swept under the rug. It appears to me, at least thus far, that he is taking the same approach here and it will bite him in the ass if so. Elena already recognized that his secret plan put Jeremy in unnecessary danger. How many times can she forgive him for that? Maybe this time she won't be so willing.

Also, I don't remember which episode it was where Stefan talked to Caroline about his concerns about Elena but it sure sounded to me like he didn't think he could remain in control around Elena if she was feeding off human blood and that was his main concern. I don't recall him talking about his morals being in the equation but maybe you can refresh my memory.

I don't think Stefan's morals are the reason he doesn't drink human blood. It's because he can't control himself, goes off the deep end and becomes a ripper which in and of itself could be the death of him if he got caught. Last time Damon went around cleaning up his mess. I wonder how often THAT has happened over time. I went back to the 1864 confrontation they had the other day about it and that's what Damon said. It would get him killed.

So I think his main motivation, when he consciously tries not to be the ripper is because he can't be going on like that mass murdering people and getting away with it. Yes he has remorse later, as well he should. I don't know what makes him a Ripper but it's pretty seriously messed up.

I also find it humorous that people call Stefan moral when he has killed hundreds upon hundreds of people, sometimes all in one giant mass killing spree. I don't really try to put morals on vampires. They're not meant to have them and Stefan certainly doesn't have them. Remorse does not equal morals. He would not be able to blindly kill mass amounts of people the way he has if he truly had morals. There is nobody to blame for that but Stefan and if we can suspend belief and call Stefan moral, then I guess Damon is a saint because he is certainly not a Ripper.

[Doppelgänger]

One thing we can all agree on is that we want Katherine back to mix things up like she is so good at and maybe to explain what is going on with Elena.

[Deleted]

Nov 10, 2012 16:57:06 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

I think it's highly possible that they are using the cure storyline to break up SE and I'll tell you why. Stefan, when he gets a plan in his head, will go like a bull in a china shop to reach his goal. We saw it in the end of season 3 when he was willing to sacrifice everything to get revenge on Klaus and that was swept under the rug. It appears to me, at least thus far, that he is taking the same approach here and it will bite him in the ass if so. Elena already recognized that his secret plan put Jeremy in unnecessary danger. How many times can she forgive him for that? Maybe this time she won't be so willing.

Also, I don't remember which episode it was where Stefan talked to Caroline about his concerns about Elena but it sure sounded to me like he didn't think he could remain in control around Elena if she was feeding off human blood and that was his main concern. I don't recall him talking about his morals being in the equation but maybe you can refresh my memory.

I don't think Stefan's morals are the reason he doesn't drink human blood. It's because he can't control himself, goes off the deep end and becomes a ripper which in and of itself could be the death of him if he got caught. Last time Damon went around cleaning up his mess. I wonder how often THAT has happened over time. I went back to the 1864 confrontation they had the other day about it and that's what Damon said. It would get him killed.

So I think his main motivation, when he consciously tries not to be the ripper is because he can't be going on like that mass murdering people and getting away with it. Yes he has remorse later, as well he should. I don't know what makes him a Ripper but it's pretty seriously messed up.

I also find it humorous that people call Stefan moral when he has killed hundreds upon hundreds of people, sometimes all in one giant mass killing spree. I don't really try to put morals on vampires. They're not meant to have them and Stefan certainly doesn't have them. Remorse does not equal morals. He would not be able to blindly kill mass amounts of people the way he has if he truly had morals. There is nobody to blame for that but Stefan and if we can suspend belief and call Stefan moral, then I guess Damon is a saint because he is certainly not a Ripper.

On contrary, Damon let people die without needing to be a vampire to do it. He helped and then kissed the person that did it.

I think it is obvious that morals come to play with everyones actions vampire or not in this show. I think it has been made obvious that Stefan does not want to hurt people. I'm lazy so I am not going to find the quotes. but I am pretty sure he has said it more than once as the reason he does not want to lose control is because he does not want to hurt anyone. Stefan did not chose to be a ripper that can't control himself under bloodlust. I have always thought (maybe I am wrong), but I thought Stefan being a Ripper was not anything Stefan could control, that it was a defect in his vampirism. That even though he has morals he can't control that he has a Ripper part of him and his transition was that much more difficult because he was not only a newbie, but a ripper on top of it. Which is why Lexi helped him. Because she saw the good in him.

I do not think Damon is this awful immoral vampire, but I think he works off a separate set of morals for sure and he especially gets questionable when it comes to the people loves. Not saying Stefan is not capable of that, BUT from what we have seen Damon is more prone to questionable/impulsive behavior.

I would not watch this show if I thought the Vampires were not meant to have morals so therefore I would not expect it out of them. The story, in my eyes, has been all about the humanity (morals) that is left in a vampire. To fight what is not them (the vampire) to hold onto what makes them more than monsters. killers.


the Caroline thing you are right he did confide that he was having a difficult time with it, but the reason we saw this conversation was to show he went to her so she could help him because he was not sure Damon would. And yes this scene also shows that Stefan may not bite people because he scared to lose control, but that was not what I was talking about. I was talking about consciously killing someone for the heck of it without attempting or hoping for another option. Stefan makes it clear that he does truly care about other people other than Elena and not just because Elena cares for them because on his own he has gain their trust and bonded with both Bonnie and Caroline.

Also I think remorse does equal morals. One without remorse shows that they do not believe they did anything wrong (like serial killers) people that have remorse for their actions show that they believe what they did was wrong morally. IMO I mean case in point Damon killing Jeremy or Katherine killing that girl in the party no remorse at all therefore felt justified in their actions (in my eyes) Stefan killing that vampire in the lunch room (i think the 50s dance) he did not care. BUT elena killing Conner she showed remorse showing that she knew what she did was wrong and therefore against her morals. It makes a difference.

[Slash]

I think Damon's makeup at that point in time was a setup for what he was willing to become. A disapproving father, having been to war and seen people die/probably killed some people then to survive and then falling in love with Katherine knowing what she was? I think the 'war' aspect of him made the Vampire thing easy on him. He loved Katherine and if he did kill on the frontlines as a soldier, he was most likely used to the mentality "kill to survive" so as a Vampire, he'd be fine with it if that was the case (but he's got control aside from the impulses). He was fine with becoming a Vampire as long as he could be with Katherine and killing some random people before he made that transition was peanuts to him.

The whole moral issue is a screwed up side-effect of being what they are, coming from what they were. Trying to holding onto some semblance of who they are while having this new aspect applied to their lives. Damon's moral compass, as with other Vampires, is a combination of their human self/morals and trying to keep/tweak them with the Vampire stuff thrown in. Stefan however is an odd case cause of the whole Ripper thing. He can't control himself and he does come off as quite a bit selfish at times (the latter could be explained carrying over from his human nature but the Ripper thing still needs to be brought to the forefront). I'd say Damon's moral behavior...is in line from what little we've seen of him as a human. He's consistent to say the least. Stefan is venn diagram that isn't a venn diagram. He's one shade or the other and it's really my conflict with the character as he needs to consolidate somewhere with the 2 personalities (I'm off topic now) but as teppy touches on, this may be out of his control or maybe just something he hasn't tried. Ripper Stefan is an aspect that 'human' Stefan wouldn't want to be involved with and the Stefan we're used to is probably closer to the human Stefan. So where does he want to draw the line to even allow someone like Ripper Stefan to have an everyday place in his life? That Stefan thrives on all the things he despises and represents his 'dark' years which go on for decades at a time (honestly, story stuff like this is what I want from Stefan's character. I want a closer look at how damaged he is but the Writers won't give me this).

On Elena killing Connor, she's overreacting. What she did wasn't wrong. Connor threatened her only living relative, Jeremy, the only thing she has left. He threatened Matt and April at the same time (Matt on multiple occasions) and he's harmed Tyler 3 times (jacking his venom, shooting him twice). Damon's been shot by him and the guy made it clearly obvious that he was going to kill them all cause it was his 'job'. She did everyone a favor before they ended up burying another one of their own. They just buried Alaric. I don't see anything 'wrong' with what Elena did but who am I? A spectator. For her first kill, she did better than most by not killing an innocent (cue the whole right/wrong discussion about taking a life not being some mortal's place...).

[Sweetluv4DE]

Stefan doesn't have more morals than Damon and vice versa. Damon and Stefan both handle being a vampire different. If Stefan could drink human blood without going off the deep end would he eat bunnies and bambi? I highly doubt it. he would drink off a blood bad and probably off a human host without killing like normal vampires do. Stefan doesn't hate who he is because he is a normal vampire. He doesn't hate normal vampires. he hates himself because he is a ripper, because he cant drink human blood the way a vampire is supposed to be able to without hurting human life.

Damon was not drinking off the vein for awhile there. He was strictly drinking blood bags until he helped Elena with the whole "learning" thing. Damon HAS to make drinking enjoyable and fun. he has to make it easy so that it will be easy for him. he has to make it carefree like going out to dinner with friends and enjoying a good cocktail. This is his way of not losing self control. I don't see anything wrong or inmoral with the way he drinks off the vein.

If we are talking morals or true vamperisim. True vamperisim you drink off the vein. It's in their makeup. It's their way of life. Damon can do this easily without killing anyone. Stefan cant. Just want to point out that because Stefan cant do this or he will rip people to shreds in the process so him drinking a bunny or bambi doesn't make him have morals. It makes him vampire handicapped.

He is not the Cullens. He doesn't chose this lifestyle because he doesn't want to drink from the vein. And even the Cullens don't because of their venom killing the person. So if they didn't have venom would they drink off the vein if they could do it easily without taking human life? I'm just trying to show how a vampire is supposed to act. You can care about humanity and not kill them but survive the way you have to survive.

I think if Stefan could drink from the vein he would. I haven't seen anything in 4 seasons to show me that if he could control himself he wouldn't drink a blood bag or off the vein properly and without taking life.

When he says he doesn't want to hurt anyone it's in reference to his ripper-ism. Otherwise he would have broke up with Elena the minute they learned she could only drink off the vein. I mean since he would think it was so so immoral and all. Right? I mean... That's how I've diagnosed his "problem".