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Post by Ruby2579 on Feb 4, 2013 20:09:09 GMT -5
Yea I wasn't trying to see who was worse because we know klaus has that under his belt for the mere fact he is 1000 years old playing the bad guy and as far as we know only been in love once
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 20:10:42 GMT -5
Well, this particular conversation was talking about the past so I think the past is relevant. Again, it is what Klaus was talking about when he said that ELena has looked past the horrific things he has done. So if the show thinks it is relevant ,I think it is relevant to debate and I guess we can all agree that yes people tackle these points if they chose... that is a given I would imagine, but if you do not want to you do not have to state your opinion. The only reason Klaus picks on Damon about the horrible things he's done and uses it against him when it comes to Elena is because Klaus is in love with the Ripper and he cant ever talk smack on the horrible things Stefan has done in the same sentence as Elena because for some reason Stefan has done no wrong in his eyes. It's like he is in love with the ripper. LOL My point is that he picks on Damon about it because of just that!!! Why should Damon get picked on about the horrible crap he's done when THEY ALL DID HORRIBLE CRAP? But yet I digress... Klaus is still mad that Stefan will always pick his brother over him. I knew somehow Stefan would find his way in this debate  |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:13:38 GMT -5
One other thing I'll say, I don't think Damon's reasons will ever be completely squeaky clean. Damon's reasons usually center around only certain people or certain things and the rest of the world can go to hell and that is Damon. So, you can look at that any way you want, good, bad or otherwise. If you aren't in that circle he cares about then you are up for grabs. Alaric recognized it and even said it to him.
That's the thing about people's perspectives we all have our own and even Klaus has his own and probably feels justified and like he had good reasons. To him they were good reasons! After all he said, 'debatable,' so I think he won't really see a difference either. I think it's only by learning that some actions get a reaction you don't like that helps people learn where the acceptable line is and when Caroline rips him a new one, he might get it a little bit if he really does care about her, but he has a long journey ahead of him if he really wants to change those ingrained habits he has.
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Feb 4, 2013 20:13:58 GMT -5
Damon was a "villain" for like 10 episodes if that. Klaus IS THE VILLAIN. Let's not mistake that. I don't see the point in comparing the two because there is no comparison. Klaus continues to not care to be the BIG BAD that he was supposed to be and he could give a rats butt about it. I honestly think Damon is still mad about Carol and that is why he said he does things to be a d*ck. I honestly (and don't take this wrong) don't think it was meant to be diagnosed, examined or debated about. Damon is obviously still mad about Carol. We could make a laundry list of killings and or things these characters have done and then compare them all to one another and say who is worse? It's pointless they all did horrible crap. But at the end of the day who cares... Klaus is the villain of the show. He was written in as the villain and he isn't supposed to be compared or redeemed because of what Damon or Stefan for that fact has done in the past. We can try and understand Klaus but really he is the bad guy and until he decided to stop being the bad guy and work on himself he is not comparable in the least and doesn't come close to being less horrible than any main character on TVD. This is not a debate on who is the bigger villain (well Ruby's post wasn't at least) You're not getting my point. DAMON isn't a villain. So why are we comparing what bad stuff a non villain has done against a villain who is currently still doing crap to the gang. Damon may do bad stuff and make mistakes but he is hardly the BAD GUY anymore. Even if he likes to call himself that because lets face it Damon hates doing good but he just cant help but to do it because he really isn't a horrible guy. My point is this.... comparing a TVD main character who has flaws, issues to the villain of the show doesn't make sense to me. Sorry. Damon isn't portrayed as the villain and he hasn't been since way back in season 1. Then The tomb vamps then Isabel then Kat then Elijah then Wolves then Klaus and now Silus. I'm just saying Damon has proved himself enough to not get compared to the guy who turned Jenna and then killed her right in front of Elena, made Isabel take off her ring and burn in front of Elena and then just drowned Carol. All of those things he did were not meant to be compared to anyone on the show because they were horrible things a BIG BAD or Villain would do. Klaus stands out as a BAD guy all on his own without going tit for tat about what Damon did because lets face it Damon did DO HORRIBLE THINGS but he is not Klaus! Not by a long shot! |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:15:55 GMT -5
Anyone can state their opinion or tackle whatever part of the debate they want to debate or completely stay out of it. I don't think it is relevant to Damon as he is now and what he has learned from his past is that being bad with a purpose is the way to go. That's what I believe he was stating to Klaus. It took him a LONG time to get forgiveness for some of the things he did. He understands the differnce NOW. That is what I believe, but rehashing his long ago sins will not change who he is now or what he believes now. Well I question that if he still thinks that is why he is the "bad guy" because if that is what he thinks makes him a bad guy NOW then maybe he hasn't learned this lesson. I think when he can acknowledge why people don't like him and why he is the "bad guy" will mean he truly learned this lesson. I don't think he cares what those people think of him in the end, Teppy. That's Damon. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:18:18 GMT -5
And furthermore he has more than made up to every one of them for the things he did to them way back then and if they can't see it or refuse to see it, that is their problem, not his.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 20:18:32 GMT -5
This is not a debate on who is the bigger villain (well Ruby's post wasn't at least) You're not getting my point. DAMON isn't a villain. So why are we comparing what bad stuff a non villain has done against a villain who is currently still doing crap to the gang. Damon may do bad stuff and make mistakes but he is hardly the BAD GUY anymore. Even if he likes to call himself that because lets face it Damon hates doing good but he just cant help but to do it because he really isn't a horrible guy. My point is this.... comparing a TVD main character who has flaws, issues to the villain of the show doesn't make sense to me. Sorry. Damon isn't portrayed as the villain and he hasn't been since way back in season 1. Then The tomb vamps then Isabel then Kat then Elijah then Wolves then Klaus and now Silus. I'm just saying Damon has proved himself enough to not get compared to the guy who turned Jenna and then killed her right in front of Elena, made Isabel take off her ring and burn in front of Elena and then just drowned Carol. All of those things he did were not meant to be compared to anyone on the show because they were horrible things a BIG BAD or Villain would do. Klaus stands out as a BAD guy all on his own without going tit for tat about what Damon did because lets face it Damon did DO HORRIBLE THINGS but he is not Klaus! Not by a long shot! Because Damon himself said he was the "bad guy" Because he said that he is forgivable because he does things with purpose not to be a dick (insinuated) Because this was not comparing what Klaus has done to the world or to Elena THIS conversation was about what they have done to the person they love (Damon to Elena---Klaus to Caroline) |
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Feb 4, 2013 20:18:56 GMT -5
The only reason Klaus picks on Damon about the horrible things he's done and uses it against him when it comes to Elena is because Klaus is in love with the Ripper and he cant ever talk smack on the horrible things Stefan has done in the same sentence as Elena because for some reason Stefan has done no wrong in his eyes. It's like he is in love with the ripper. LOL My point is that he picks on Damon about it because of just that!!! Why should Damon get picked on about the horrible crap he's done when THEY ALL DID HORRIBLE CRAP? But yet I digress... Klaus is still mad that Stefan will always pick his brother over him. I knew somehow Stefan would find his way in this debate Ok Teppy... How could I not. Let's be honest he was talking about Elena and how she and STEFAN will always love each other. Are we not analyzing the whole scene or just part of it. How can you not analyze why he picks on Damon or said those things about Damon without bringing Stefan into it when he at the end talked about Damon going right back to Stefan? So yes I brought Stefan in only as it relates to why Klaus picks on Damon but did I compare Stefan to Klaus and or even to what Damon has done? NO? So why is it a big deal? I honestly think Klaus is in love with the ripper and he hates Damon and picks on Damon for this reason. Why can I not state this? I don''t get it?  Aren't we talking about Klaus's comment to Damon? Well there is always a back story and I feel this is why he even brings this crap up to Damon honestly. I even said a positive thing about Stefan.... |
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Feb 4, 2013 20:19:48 GMT -5
Ok i cant debate this right apparently so I'm out. goodnight.
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Post by Ravenwing on Feb 4, 2013 20:19:55 GMT -5
It's hard to debate the "morality" of two vampires without bringing the rest of the into the mix. They have ALL killed people for various reasons. BUT here is where I stand.
I think Klaus is a great villain, and I like seeing him go all psycho, but I find it unnervingly confusing when the writers try to make him sympathetic. I like it when he tries to reach out to Caroline but every thing he has done has made that pairing unrootable, and I do NOT want him to change. He is a better villain than he is an anti hero.
And that is where I think the difference lies. Klaus is a villain. Damon is an anti-hero.
Klaus kills and does terrible things for 3 reasons:
1)Self-serving purpose/convenience
2)Revenge on behalf of himself and his family
3)Survival (in the case of Michael)
Damon kills and does terrible things for 4 reasons:
1)To protect Elena/his brother
2)To avenge Elena/his brother
3)Survival
4)Self-destruction
I am a loudly proclaimed Damon fan, but I cannot agree with his statement that he has only been bad with purpose. He is USUALLY bad with purpose. But the one exception to this rule is when he self-destructs.
The reason I can forgive Damon, and see Elena forgiving Damon, but not forgive Klaus is because Damon SHOWS REMORSE. When he self-destructs you can see him spiraling and then you witness his regret. He hates himself. He asks for forgiveness.
Klaus does not have that kind of conscience. He does not feel bad for his actions. He only wants Caroline to forgive him because he wants HER, and that is not enough of a reason for me to sympathize with him, cute as they may be together.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 20:21:15 GMT -5
And furthermore he has more than made up to every one of them for the things he did to them way back then and if they can't see it or refuse to see it, that is their problem, not his. I don't think you can make up for those things... like Klaus said you can be forgiven--Damon can change, but make up for trying to kill both Elena's best friends and killing her brother not sure if you can make up for that. |
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Feb 4, 2013 20:22:09 GMT -5
And yes I totally hair flipped and I don't care.  |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:24:21 GMT -5
You're not getting my point. DAMON isn't a villain. So why are we comparing what bad stuff a non villain has done against a villain who is currently still doing crap to the gang. Damon may do bad stuff and make mistakes but he is hardly the BAD GUY anymore. Even if he likes to call himself that because lets face it Damon hates doing good but he just cant help but to do it because he really isn't a horrible guy. My point is this.... comparing a TVD main character who has flaws, issues to the villain of the show doesn't make sense to me. Sorry. Damon isn't portrayed as the villain and he hasn't been since way back in season 1. Then The tomb vamps then Isabel then Kat then Elijah then Wolves then Klaus and now Silus. I'm just saying Damon has proved himself enough to not get compared to the guy who turned Jenna and then killed her right in front of Elena, made Isabel take off her ring and burn in front of Elena and then just drowned Carol. All of those things he did were not meant to be compared to anyone on the show because they were horrible things a BIG BAD or Villain would do. Klaus stands out as a BAD guy all on his own without going tit for tat about what Damon did because lets face it Damon did DO HORRIBLE THINGS but he is not Klaus! Not by a long shot! Because Damon himself said he was the "bad guy" Because he said that he is forgivable because he does things with purpose not to be a dick (insinuated) Because this was not comparing what Klaus has done to the world or to Elena THIS conversation was about what they have done to the person they love (Damon to Elena---Klaus to Caroline) Well if we're going to compare just what Damon did TO Elena directly than other than feeding her his blood to keep her alive knowing she was about to die then what else did he do directly to her? His purpose was to keep the girl alive which was in my opinion a good reason to do it. Damon knows he works in shades of grey. He is not the white knight, he is the dark knight and he accepts that role knowing he will get his hands dirty and do the things other people are afraid to do. |
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Post by Ruby2579 on Feb 4, 2013 20:25:23 GMT -5
Maybe we are using the wrong word....how about we just say bad boys. Lol I.dont want everyone to get so defensive it was meant to analyze it. Ok i cant debate this right apparently so I'm out. goodnight. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:25:35 GMT -5
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Aren't we talking about Klaus's comment to Damon? Well there is always a back story and I feel this is why he even brings this crap up to Damon honestly. 
i always avoid when its on hiatus here to avoid spoilers
Jun 10, 2016 15:46:17 GMT -5
i always avoid when its on hiatus here to avoid spoilers
Jun 10, 2016 15:46:17 GMT -5