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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:26:58 GMT -5
See I knew this would go ugly real fast. I've said my peace about what I think Damon meant by saying that to Klaus and why.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:29:52 GMT -5
And furthermore he has more than made up to every one of them for the things he did to them way back then and if they can't see it or refuse to see it, that is their problem, not his. I don't think you can make up for those things... like Klaus said you can be forgiven--Damon can change, but make up for trying to kill both Elena's best friends and killing her brother not sure if you can make up for that. First of all they're all still alive, right? And second of all they're all still alive so nobody is dead. THAT makes a world of difference to actually killing someone DEAD dead and this is exactly the type of arguments I've heard for the entire series and I'm tired of arguing them. This is season 4 now guys. Damon has learned and changed whether you want to believe it or not. Elena does and she is the only one that matters. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 20:30:30 GMT -5
It's hard to debate the "morality" of two vampires without bringing the rest of the into the mix. They have ALL killed people for various reasons. BUT here is where I stand. I think Klaus is a great villain, and I like seeing him go all psycho, but I find it unnervingly confusing when the writers try to make him sympathetic. I like it when he tries to reach out to Caroline but every thing he has done has made that pairing unrootable, and I do NOT want him to change. He is a better villain than he is an anti hero. And that is where I think the difference lies. Klaus is a villain. Damon is an anti-hero. Klaus kills and does terrible things for 3 reasons: 1)Self-serving purpose/convenience 2)Revenge on behalf of himself and his family 3)Survival (in the case of Michael) Damon kills and does terrible things for 4 reasons: 1)To protect Elena/his brother 2)To avenge Elena/his brother 3)Survival 4)Self-destruction I am a loudly proclaimed Damon fan, but I cannot agree with his statement that he has only been bad with purpose. He is USUALLY bad with purpose. But the one exception to this rule is when he self-destructs. The reason I can forgive Damon, and see Elena forgiving Damon, but not forgive Klaus is because Damon SHOWS REMORSE. When he self-destructs you can see him spiraling and then you witness his regret. He hates himself. He asks for forgiveness. Klaus does not have that kind of conscious. He does not feel bad for his actions. He only wants Caroline to forgive him because he wants HER, and that is not enough of a reason for me to sympathize with him, cute as they may be together. This agree with this EXCEPT I think because this show is not about Klaus we do not see Klaus's perspective very much, but I think that scene where he kills his dad is very telling about why Klaus is the way he is. |
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Post by Sweetluv4DE on Feb 4, 2013 20:30:30 GMT -5
No don't worry about me I'm good.... Keep debating. We debate about Stefan so debate away about Damon. I'm just not understanding the points of the post so I hair flipped and u can't hair flip then come back in and explain yourself damn it!!! Lol
And I love u more doppel!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 20:32:16 GMT -5
See I knew this would go ugly real fast. I've said my peace about what I think Damon meant by saying that to Klaus and why. ugly? |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:33:43 GMT -5
And furthermore he has more than made up to every one of them for the things he did to them way back then and if they can't see it or refuse to see it, that is their problem, not his. I don't think you can make up for those things... like Klaus said you can be forgiven--Damon can change, but make up for trying to kill both Elena's best friends and killing her brother not sure if you can make up for that. By your argument too then Stefan should never be forgiven for killing countless people in Monterey and just last season around the country. How can you think Stefan is alright to be forgiven for his crimes but not Damon? |
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Post by Ruby2579 on Feb 4, 2013 20:37:10 GMT -5
I don't think you can make up for those things... like Klaus said you can be forgiven--Damon can change, but make up for trying to kill both Elena's best friends and killing her brother not sure if you can make up for that. By your argument too then Stefan should never be forgiven for killing countless people in Montereyand just last season around the country. How can you think Stefan is alright to be forgiven for his crimes but not Damon? But we are not discussing Stefan in this debate. I just wanted to analyze the bad things that Klaus and Damon have done regarding the conversation they had in 4x12 We didnt have to use the word Villain or who's done worse and we didnt have to just see who has actually done the deed and killed. It wasnt intent on bashing neither character. it was to see if what both damon n klaus said about being debatable could actually be debatable |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 20:41:15 GMT -5
I don't think you can make up for those things... like Klaus said you can be forgiven--Damon can change, but make up for trying to kill both Elena's best friends and killing her brother not sure if you can make up for that. By your argument too then Stefan should never be forgiven for killing countless people in Monterey and just last season around the country. How can you think Stefan is alright to be forgiven for his crimes but not Damon? I said that he can be forgiven but no stefan can't make up for that. He can't make that okay. That's the difference Stefan knows that. |
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Post by Ravenwing on Feb 4, 2013 20:41:17 GMT -5
It's hard to debate the "morality" of two vampires without bringing the rest of the into the mix. They have ALL killed people for various reasons. BUT here is where I stand. I think Klaus is a great villain, and I like seeing him go all psycho, but I find it unnervingly confusing when the writers try to make him sympathetic. I like it when he tries to reach out to Caroline but every thing he has done has made that pairing unrootable, and I do NOT want him to change. He is a better villain than he is an anti hero. And that is where I think the difference lies. Klaus is a villain. Damon is an anti-hero. Klaus kills and does terrible things for 3 reasons: 1)Self-serving purpose/convenience 2)Revenge on behalf of himself and his family 3)Survival (in the case of Michael) Damon kills and does terrible things for 4 reasons: 1)To protect Elena/his brother 2)To avenge Elena/his brother 3)Survival 4)Self-destruction I am a loudly proclaimed Damon fan, but I cannot agree with his statement that he has only been bad with purpose. He is USUALLY bad with purpose. But the one exception to this rule is when he self-destructs. The reason I can forgive Damon, and see Elena forgiving Damon, but not forgive Klaus is because Damon SHOWS REMORSE. When he self-destructs you can see him spiraling and then you witness his regret. He hates himself. He asks for forgiveness. Klaus does not have that kind of conscious. He does not feel bad for his actions. He only wants Caroline to forgive him because he wants HER, and that is not enough of a reason for me to sympathize with him, cute as they may be together. This agree with this EXCEPT I think because this show is not about Klaus we do not see Klaus's perspective very much, but I think that scene where he kills his dad is very telling about why Klaus is the way he is. We can only base our opinions on characters on what we have seen/know of their past - so my analysis is based on what I know about Klaus. I'm not going to speculate. I'll believe he has a conscience when I see it. So far I've only seen a desperation for Caroline to like him and that's not enough for me. But honestly I'm fine with it because he's a villain and that's what I like about him... |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:42:24 GMT -5
See I knew this would go ugly real fast. I've said my peace about what I think Damon meant by saying that to Klaus and why. ugly? Ugly, yes, two people have already left because of the way this debate is going. It's bordering on more the realm of anti boards at this point instead of a debate. But, I'm not afraid. Come at me! I'm pretty used to Damon hate by now. I'm just kind of tired of fighting the same old fights from years ago.   But anyway let's try to tone it down before nobody is willing to come voice their opinion anymore. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:43:34 GMT -5
By your argument too then Stefan should never be forgiven for killing countless people in Montereyand just last season around the country. How can you think Stefan is alright to be forgiven for his crimes but not Damon? But we are not discussing Stefan in this debate. I just wanted to analyze the bad things that Klaus and Damon have done regarding the conversation they had in 4x12 We didnt have to use the word Villain or who's done worse and we didnt have to just see who has actually done the deed and killed. It wasnt intent on bashing neither character. it was to see if what both damon n klaus said about being debatable could actually be debatable Well I'm discussing Stefan cause if we want to talk bad it's relevant...I don't like hypocrisy and I will point it out when I see it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 20:45:11 GMT -5
Okay, I am not sure what was said to upset anyone... I am sorry if I said anything that was not in good debate form... I thought I was being fair to all side actually  |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:46:00 GMT -5
By your argument too then Stefan should never be forgiven for killing countless people in Monterey and just last season around the country. How can you think Stefan is alright to be forgiven for his crimes but not Damon? I said that he can be forgiven but no stefan can't make up for that. He can't make that okay. That's the difference Stefan knows that. How do we know Stefan knows that? He goes around like he's done nothing wrong most of the time or that Damon is worse than he is. Apparently he forgot. As far as Damon goes, he had done what he can to make up for it. He doesn't care if they ever change their minds about it and consequently he's never asked them to so I believe he gets that they may never forgive him or conversely that he won't be able to 'make it up' to them. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 20:48:38 GMT -5
This agree with this EXCEPT I think because this show is not about Klaus we do not see Klaus's perspective very much, but I think that scene where he kills his dad is very telling about why Klaus is the way he is. We can only base our opinions on characters on what we have seen/know of their past - so my analysis is based on what I know about Klaus. I'm not going to speculate. I'll believe he has a conscience when I see it. So far I've only seen a desperation for Caroline to like him and that's not enough for me. But honestly I'm fine with it because he's a villain and that's what I like about him... Oh I have seen many moments of vulnerability with Klaus that have nothing to do with Caroline. I think Season 2 was pretty much laid out what has made Klaus the person he is... and I think it showed that he does have feelings and emotions attached to his family even if he does not show it often. I was not speculating I gave a specific scene to reference. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Feb 4, 2013 20:50:18 GMT -5
I just find it a little hard to swallow when fans of the Ripper of Monterey want to talk about how 'bad' Damon is or even comparable to the current villian on the show. If we're gonna scale it I think it would be Klaus on top at villian (he has 1000 years under his belt after all), then Stefan for killing hundreds of innocent people inhumanely, then Damon and I don't see how anyone could argue with THAT.
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i always avoid when its on hiatus here to avoid spoilers
Jun 10, 2016 15:46:17 GMT -5
i always avoid when its on hiatus here to avoid spoilers
Jun 10, 2016 15:46:17 GMT -5