Analyzing Damon & Klaus' Convo in 4x12

[Deleted]

ORIGINAL POST BY RUBY: (Thread was moved and Post got pushed to the end)

Discussing the Whole Klaus and Damon Convo in 4x12

Klaus: How is that she manages to overlook every horrific thing you have ever done? Is it willful ignorance or perhaps a bit more pathological?

Damon: Some people are just more capable of forgiveness than others. I bet you score about a negative 500 in that realm. 

Klaus: Come on there must be a secret. It can't JUST be the sirebond. What is it? Compulsion? Manipulation? What is it you say to her?

Damon: I think this has something to do with a certain blonde vampire. I think you murdered Carol Lockwood and I think you are worried Caroline's never going to forgive you. 

Klaus: You've done worse

Damon: Debatable. See I don't mind being the bad guy because someone has to fill the role to get things done. You do bad things for no reason. You do them to be a dick. 

Klaus: Debatable

Damon: If you are going to be bad be bad with purpose. Otherwise you are just not worth forgiving. 

Now Klaus automatically stated that Damon has done worse then him when it comes to being bad. Which caught me off guard bc we all know Klaus is supposed to be the ultimate bad guy. But I think he meant Damon has maybe done worse to Elena? And she has still forgiven him? And then Damon states Klaus does bad things to be a dick and Klaus says debatable. 

I also feel Damon has done bad things to just be a dick and NOT Always done things for a purpose. And I also feel that Klaus HAS Done way worse then Damon. I wanted to know people's thoughts about this specific conversation and figure out if each side could be debatable with Klaus and Damon

Below are a list of bad things that both Klaus and Damon have done in the Past and the Present time. 


Klaus
• Killed his Mother: For putting curse on him 
• Killed his Father: Because his father wanted to kill them..or him for killing Esther
• Killed the Hunters: Because they daggered his family so he slaughtered them
• Slaughtered Katherine's entire family when she escaped from him 
• Had Isobel compelled to kill herself once she completed her mission he had made her do taking Elena or getting Katherine
• Kidnapped Tyler and Caroline for the Ritual of Breaking the Curse
• Killed Jules: for the breaking of the curse
• Killed Jenna For the breaking of the curse (Also to be a dick because he could've taken anyone else and did it to make it worse for Elena)
• Killed the Werewolves: In the attempt of creating Hybrids but it failed.
• Had Stefan Kill the Students on Prank Night: To be A Dick and make Elena Suffer
• Compelled Stefan to bite Elena
• Killed Tyler: To put pressure on the group to create his hybrids mission accomplished
• Had Jeremy run down by a SUV when Stefan stole the Coffins (And Hit Alaric Instead)
• Had Tyler bite Caroline to make goods with the Sheriff? Or to possible make a move on Caroline?
• Killed his Hybrids: Because they were trying to execute a plan to take him down and betray him
• Killed Carol Lockwood: As Revenge towards Tyler for trying to plan against him and take him down
• Has Daggered his siblings numerous times when they disagree with him or to get them out the way (Also had them daggered until he took Michael out of the way?)
• Killed a bar filled of people to turn them into vampires so Jeremy can kill them so his mark could be completed

(Feel free to add more if I missed anything for both Klaus and Damon =))

Damon
(Prior Klaus)
• Used Caroline as a Blood bag and almost killed her when she was of no use to him
• Attacked Vicky and made her a vampire because he was bored and to get back at Stefan for taking his ring
• Killed Alaric when Alaric tried to kill him for killing his wife but turned out he actually turned her to a vampire
• Attacked Bonnie when she destroyed the crystal to help free Katherine from the tomb
• Threw Uncle John off the roof when he couldn't be trusted or threatened to reveal him to the council
• Attempted to kill Caroline when she turned into a Vampire
• Snapped Jeremys Neck when he was drunk and was rejected by both katherine and Elena
• Attacked Mason when he thought he was a werewolf
• Killed Mason after realizing Mason couldn't be trusted and was working with Katherine
• Killed the cops that had attacked Stefan and Damon when Mason outed them to Liz (And Caroline saved them)
• Daggered Elijah 
• Killed Lucas after he saw he was trying to un dagger Elijah
(After Klaus Arrived)
• Almost messed up the ritual of breaking the curse by feeding Elena his blood
• Snapped Alaric's Neck when he kept getting on his nerves
• Snapped Kol's Neck for trying to kill Matt
• Tried to kill Caroline's dad because he threatened to out him to the council
• Tried to Kill Matt because Matt had survived the accident that Elena didn't
• Tried to kill Rebekah for causing Elena to turn into a vampire


Read more: tvd1.proboards.com/thread/489/analyzing-damon-klaus-convo-4x12?scrollTo=28540&page=6#ixzz2JzXhlPyN





Original POST BY TEPPY 


Okay this will be more streamlined

- Damon needs to understand that he is not that bad guy because he does things with purpose. He is the bad guy because he many times doesn't or because the purpose is self-serving and he does not take in account how his actions are effecting the people he supposedly cares about. He has done some GREAT things--like the plan to pretty much save Bonnie and everyone else when Klaus was in Alaric's body and he has done others, but that was not him being the "bad guy" that he always like to refer himself as.

Klaus is worse for sure especially in the self-serving standpoint. He has been more damaged and has more power so therefore more destruction... as far as him being worse to Caroline I am not sure--worse to his family YES--but Caroline has done things to hurt Klaus as well (but she is not the one with the crush that we know of so I am not sure that counts) Carol was a bad move on Klaus's part if he was trying to get in Caroline's good favor. BUT I am not sure Klaus has done worse things directly to Caroline that are worse then what Damon has done directly to Elena, not yet anyway.

[Doppelgänger]

Yeah, Ruby, you two were thinking along the same lines aparently and yes if anyone wants to tackle your points they can. I'm personally a little tired of repeatedly talking about what Damon did way back in the beginning of the series as that's been an ongoing 4 year debate now that pretty much has never gone anywhere. He has changed considerably since then and I don't feel it's relevant to now so I shall pass. BTDT too many times and feel it would be a waste of my time to debate it anymore given that isn't the current situation with Damon and I believe when he talked about it he was talking about the now and what he has personally learned about his own self in his own journey since coming to MF. Pretty much everyone on the show has a past, including the likes of Stefan. The difference is that Klaus' is in the present, to me, and Damon has apparently learned something from his mistakes of the past which he passed on to Klaus because he asked.

[Ruby2579]

Feb 4, 2013 19:38:23 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Yeah, Ruby, you two were thinking along the same lines aparently and yes if anyone wants to tackle your points they can. I'm personally a little tired of repeatedly talking about what Damon did way back in the beginning of the series as that's been an ongoing 4 year debate now that pretty much has never gone anywhere. He has changed considerably since then and I don't feel it's relevant to now so I shall pass. BTDT too many times and feel it would be a waste of my time to debate it anymore given that isn't the current situation with Damon and I believe when he talked about it he was talking about the now and what he has personally learned about his own self in his own journey since coming to MF. Pretty much everyone on the show has a past, including the likes of Stefan. The difference is that Klaus' is in the present, to me, and Damon has apparently learned something from his mistakes of the past which he passed on to Klaus because he asked.

Yea I know what you mean while I was writing Damons bad points I was thinking geeze these are all the way from season 1 so that's why I wrote before klaus and after klaus showed up hence taking on the role of the villain.

[Doppelgänger]

Sure if he is willing to do it. I think it seemed like he might make a change but then he just went on a murderous rampage and killed 13 people so I guess it remains to be seen. I'm not sure where they are going with Klaus but since he is leaving probably not very far on this show. But Klaus was never meant to be a hero. He's always been a villian and we have enough heros on this show. Maybe on his next show. Personally I like Klaus the villian just fine.

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2013 19:38:23 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Yeah, Ruby, you two were thinking along the same lines aparently and yes if anyone wants to tackle your points they can. I'm personally a little tired of repeatedly talking about what Damon did way back in the beginning of the series as that's been an ongoing 4 year debate now that pretty much has never gone anywhere. He has changed considerably since then and I don't feel it's relevant to now so I shall pass. BTDT too many times and feel it would be a waste of my time to debate it anymore given that isn't the current situation with Damon and I believe when he talked about it he was talking about the now and what he has personally learned about his own self in his own journey since coming to MF. Pretty much everyone on the show has a past, including the likes of Stefan. The difference is that Klaus' is in the present, to me, and Damon has apparently learned something from his mistakes of the past which he passed on to Klaus because he asked.

Well, this particular conversation was talking about the past so I think the past is relevant. Again, it is what Klaus was talking about when he said that ELena has looked past the horrific things he has done. So if the show thinks it is relevant ,I think it is relevant to debate and I guess we can all agree that yes people tackle these points if they chose... that is a given I would imagine, but if you do not want to you do not have to state your opinion. 

[Ruby2579]

Yea Teppy I wrote all the things we known about being bad for both characters past and present. I guess for klaus its a little different because we heard of the bad things he has done in the past rather then seeing them like how we have experienced seeing Damon since day 1

One thing I did forget about Damon was he killed their uncle in season 1 as well.

[Doppelgänger]

Well honestly I would probably say that on those latest Damon points he had reasons for most of them, or I do not believe he would have gone through with it, as in killing Matt regardless of what he might have said, I don't think he could have when it came down to it but that's my opinion on that and we won't ever know but Matt IS still alive. The main reason for most of it was to protect the vampire community in Mystic Falls which wasn't just Damon's goal but all their goals or to keep Elena safe, with the exception of snapping Alaric's neck which he knew wouldn't permanently kill him but he nearly lost his friendship over and THAT he didn't count on and I think taught him something about consequences of rash decisions.

[Doppelgänger]

Feb 4, 2013 19:49:13 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

Feb 4, 2013 19:38:23 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Yeah, Ruby, you two were thinking along the same lines aparently and yes if anyone wants to tackle your points they can. I'm personally a little tired of repeatedly talking about what Damon did way back in the beginning of the series as that's been an ongoing 4 year debate now that pretty much has never gone anywhere. He has changed considerably since then and I don't feel it's relevant to now so I shall pass. BTDT too many times and feel it would be a waste of my time to debate it anymore given that isn't the current situation with Damon and I believe when he talked about it he was talking about the now and what he has personally learned about his own self in his own journey since coming to MF. Pretty much everyone on the show has a past, including the likes of Stefan. The difference is that Klaus' is in the present, to me, and Damon has apparently learned something from his mistakes of the past which he passed on to Klaus because he asked.

Well, this particular conversation was talking about the past so I think the past is relevant. Again, it is what Klaus was talking about when he said that ELena has looked past the horrific things he has done. So if the show thinks it is relevant ,I think it is relevant to debate and I guess we can all agree that yes people tackle these points if they chose... that is a given I would imagine, but if you do not want to you do not have to state your opinion. 

Anyone can state their opinion or tackle whatever part of the debate they want to debate or completely stay out of it. I don't think it is relevant to Damon as he is now and what he has learned from his past is that being bad with a purpose is the way to go.  That's what I believe he was stating to Klaus.  It took him a LONG time to get forgiveness for some of the things he did.  He understands the differnce NOW.  That is what I believe, but rehashing his long ago sins will not change who he is now or what he believes now.

[Doppelgänger]

Plus as Damon stated some people are more forgiving and Elena is one of them. She's forgiven him and she's forgiven Stefan for the things they both did to her. So how long are we going to dwell on them if she has forgiven them? She was the one who needed to and she did.

[Ruby2579]

Feb 4, 2013 19:57:23 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Feb 4, 2013 19:49:13 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

Well, this particular conversation was talking about the past so I think the past is relevant. Again, it is what Klaus was talking about when he said that ELena has looked past the horrific things he has done. So if the show thinks it is relevant ,I think it is relevant to debate and I guess we can all agree that yes people tackle these points if they chose... that is a given I would imagine, but if you do not want to you do not have to state your opinion. 

Anyone can state their opinion or tackle whatever part of the debate they want to debate or completely stay out of it. I don't think it is relevant to Damon as he is now and what he has learned from his past is that being bad with a purpose is the way to go.  That's what I believe he was stating to Klaus.  It took him a LONG time to get forgiveness for some of the things he did.  He understands the differnce NOW.  That is what I believe, but rehashing his long ago sins will not change who he is now or what he believes now.

And we also have to be aware that Damons version of bad has gradually changed because of Elena where as klaus might have a crush but we don't know his extent of his emotions are for caroline and what he would be willing to change for love.

That is something I was always curious about that if someone did show they loved klaus and he was in love back would he make certain changes in how he approaches situations

[Sweetluv4DE]

Damon was a "villain" for like 10 episodes if that.

Klaus IS THE VILLAIN. Let's not mistake that.

I don't see the point in comparing the two because there is no comparison.

Klaus continues to not care to be the BIG BAD that he was supposed to be and he could give a rats butt about it. I honestly think Damon is still mad about Carol and that is why he said he does things to be a d*ck. I honestly (and don't take this wrong) don't think it was meant to be diagnosed, examined or debated about. Damon is obviously still mad about Carol.

We could make a laundry list of killings and or things these characters have done and then compare them all to one another and say who is worse? It's pointless they all did horrible crap.

But at the end of the day who cares... Klaus is the villain of the show. He was written in as the villain and he isn't supposed to be compared or redeemed because of what Damon or Stefan for that fact has done in the past.

We can try and understand Klaus but really he is the bad guy and until he decided to stop being the bad guy and work on himself he is not comparable in the least and doesn't come close to being less horrible than any main character on TVD.

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2013 19:57:23 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Feb 4, 2013 19:49:13 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

Well, this particular conversation was talking about the past so I think the past is relevant. Again, it is what Klaus was talking about when he said that ELena has looked past the horrific things he has done. So if the show thinks it is relevant ,I think it is relevant to debate and I guess we can all agree that yes people tackle these points if they chose... that is a given I would imagine, but if you do not want to you do not have to state your opinion. 

Anyone can state their opinion or tackle whatever part of the debate they want to debate or completely stay out of it. I don't think it is relevant to Damon as he is now and what he has learned from his past is that being bad with a purpose is the way to go.  That's what I believe he was stating to Klaus.  It took him a LONG time to get forgiveness for some of the things he did.  He understands the differnce NOW.  That is what I believe, but rehashing his long ago sins will not change who he is now or what he believes now.

Well I question that if he still thinks that is why he is the "bad guy" because if that is what he thinks makes him a bad guy NOW then maybe he hasn't learned this lesson. I think when he can acknowledge why people don't like him and why he is the "bad guy" will mean he truly learned this lesson. 

[Sweetluv4DE]

Feb 4, 2013 19:49:13 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

Feb 4, 2013 19:38:23 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Yeah, Ruby, you two were thinking along the same lines aparently and yes if anyone wants to tackle your points they can. I'm personally a little tired of repeatedly talking about what Damon did way back in the beginning of the series as that's been an ongoing 4 year debate now that pretty much has never gone anywhere. He has changed considerably since then and I don't feel it's relevant to now so I shall pass. BTDT too many times and feel it would be a waste of my time to debate it anymore given that isn't the current situation with Damon and I believe when he talked about it he was talking about the now and what he has personally learned about his own self in his own journey since coming to MF. Pretty much everyone on the show has a past, including the likes of Stefan. The difference is that Klaus' is in the present, to me, and Damon has apparently learned something from his mistakes of the past which he passed on to Klaus because he asked.

Well, this particular conversation was talking about the past so I think the past is relevant. Again, it is what Klaus was talking about when he said that ELena has looked past the horrific things he has done. So if the show thinks it is relevant ,I think it is relevant to debate and I guess we can all agree that yes people tackle these points if they chose... that is a given I would imagine, but if you do not want to you do not have to state your opinion. 

The only reason Klaus picks on Damon about the horrible things he's done and uses it against him when it comes to Elena is because Klaus is in love with the Ripper and he cant ever talk smack on the horrible things Stefan has done in the same sentence as Elena because for some reason Stefan has done no wrong in his eyes. It's like he is in love with the ripper. LOL My point is that he picks on Damon about it because of just that!!! Why should Damon get picked on about the horrible crap he's done when THEY ALL DID HORRIBLE CRAP? But yet I digress... Klaus is still mad that Stefan will always pick his brother over him. 

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2013 20:01:38 GMT -5 Sweetluv4DE said:

Damon was a "villain" for like 10 episodes if that.

Klaus IS THE VILLAIN. Let's not mistake that.

I don't see the point in comparing the two because there is no comparison.

Klaus continues to not care to be the BIG BAD that he was supposed to be and he could give a rats butt about it. I honestly think Damon is still mad about Carol and that is why he said he does things to be a d*ck. I honestly (and don't take this wrong) don't think it was meant to be diagnosed, examined or debated about. Damon is obviously still mad about Carol.

We could make a laundry list of killings and or things these characters have done and then compare them all to one another and say who is worse? It's pointless they all did horrible crap.

But at the end of the day who cares... Klaus is the villain of the show. He was written in as the villain and he isn't supposed to be compared or redeemed because of what Damon or Stefan for that fact has done in the past.

We can try and understand Klaus but really he is the bad guy and until he decided to stop being the bad guy and work on himself he is not comparable in the least and doesn't come close to being less horrible than any main character on TVD.

This is not a debate on who is the bigger villain (well Ruby's post wasn't at least)

[Ruby2579]

Feb 4, 2013 20:01:38 GMT -5 Sweetluv4DE said:

Damon was a "villain" for like 10 episodes if that.

Klaus IS THE VILLAIN. Let's not mistake that.

I don't see the point in comparing the two because there is no comparison.

Klaus continues to not care to be the BIG BAD that he was supposed to be and he could give a rats butt about it. I honestly think Damon is still mad about Carol and that is why he said he does things to be a d*ck. I honestly (and don't take this wrong) don't think it was meant to be diagnosed, examined or debated about. Damon is obviously still mad about Carol.

We could make a laundry list of killings and or things these characters have done and then compare them all to one another and say who is worse? It's pointless they all did horrible crap.

But at the end of the day who cares... Klaus is the villain of the show. He was written in as the villain and he isn't supposed to be compared or redeemed because of what Damon or Stefan for that fact has done in the past.

We can try and understand Klaus but really he is the bad guy and until he decided to stop being the bad guy and work on himself he is not comparable in the least and doesn't come close to being less horrible than any main character on TVD.

But see the reason I did.make the comparisons is because Damon waz sort of the villian when he was introduced to the show and then klaus took over the bad boy part. And lets honestly.look at all the wrong things they have both done that we have seen...

There is a very thin line between hero and villain in this show and I feel each 8-if our characters have played the bad guy for a purpose. So that's y I said let's analyze their bad actions even if its from season one