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Post by Doppelgänger on Jul 8, 2016 11:46:43 GMT -5
It's not a " a Stefan bias" It's a fact they met "good stefan" first. People mostly hate change. They first impressions matter and they do. Once people make up their minds on someone in can be hard to change it. Knowing Stefan as good and Damon as bad first the characters would logically find it hard to change their views. Has Stefan done evil? YES I keep saying he done many bad things. No one should argue that. My point is people make up their minds on someone fast. I'm looking at it as if they are real. It's not bias as I have said i prefer Damon to stefan. I just know it's hard for people to get rid of reputations. To the characters Stefan is the friend who did wrong. Like in real life a friend who one day breaks law. BUT damon they met evil. He is like an ex-con going straight at this point. People know him as the evil one and it can be hard for them to not. It's not fair, Neither brother is "the good" or "the bad" one but it is realistic for them to stick to what they expect. People love their status Quo. It's why if the bus late they complain, if it rains in summer, if they burn toast. People are misunderstanding me. I don't think the sun shines out of Stefan. I don't think Damon is the evillest person ever. I just think people want normality to drift back to. I know i freak out if my day is disrupted slightly or when things change. So i just feel the characters are reacting closer to what they would if the show was real. I'm sorry if people are offended by it or think I am putting stefan as some kind of holy saint. I am just pointing myself in their shoes. As for my comments earlier on fans I think Doppelgänger nailed it. I think this show is worse tha others fan wise as it pits fans against themselves so much that it's has become "us vs them" so much. I mean it's a CW teen show , It's not even the best on the network (flash) so instead of enjoying it and loving all fans. It becomes the "us vs them" that imo hurts a fanbase more than other fanbases. Hence i come here as it's a little "fairer" even if not 100% equal. So if you met a sociopath who came off 'good' but you found out about his past and the bad things he'd done, that wouldn't make you change your mind because of 'first impressions'? For me it would most definitely change my mind and make me feel like a fool for being tricked by him and that's how I feel about Stefan for the most part. Not only that, but Stefan hasn't even managed to stay clean while on the show. If you're going to prop a character up as the 'hero' he'd better darn well be a hero even if his past is tarnished. Otherwise he's just a fake. It kind of goes back to what Damon said about if people see good they expect good and he doesn't want to live up to anyone's expectations. He gets it! If you can't be a saint, don't prop yourself up as one. Don't make yourself the judge and jury of other people either. That is what Stefan does and it's revolting. Half of Stefan's 'sainthood' came from the dirty deeds that Damon did to make sure the gang stayed safe behind the scenes while Stefan got all the credit...maybe more than half actually. Has Stefan EVER said, Damon did it? Only if it was something bad...LOL |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jul 8, 2016 11:50:38 GMT -5
Yes, I agree and seeing it all laid out like that Doppelganger just makes it clearer. I don't accept the notion that Damon has years of misery to make up for and that first impressions are what are driving this narrative. Damon has done more than enough to warrant some acceptance, respect and credit and the fact that Elena, Jeremy, Liz, Alaric and Bonnie managed to do that despite everything he did just highlights how petty Stefan is and how vapid Caroline is. What makes it worse are these two people (aside from Elena) have arguably benefited the most from Damon's good deeds. It really is bad writing and so therefore it circles back the original point that was being made.....................It makes no sense and for fans to be invested the story and character reactions need to be consistent and believable. The problem as far as I can see is that as a character, Damon can stand alone, he is interesting and layered enough to attract the audience and Stefan just isn't. The writers struggle with him because they absolutely refuse to see him as anything other than a hero and a victim of circumstance. His actions are justified and suppported in the narrative and excuses and get out of Jail free cards are handed to him on a regular basis. Even his ripperness (the only interesting thing about him) has been retconned as a genetic flaw and not a character flaw. Boring. The writers need to concentrate on just writing Stefan independently of Damon with layers and have the guts to dirty him up a bit, instead of using Damon to prop him up by dragging him down. I agree to a degree. To me it's Superman + Batman. let me explain. To me Stefan is basically "Superman" of TVD. What I mean by that is reading comics Superman is a good character that most say is too perfect or full of himself. However Superman with Batman = Interesting. Superman with Supergirl = Interesting. But superman on his own can be dull. But there is a certain light about him and his struggles are still interesting enough but I like them anyway. Damon is batman. He uses fear at times , he comes from darkness. He can have amazing plans. Most prefer him as his tortured character can be on his own and you enjoy it. On the surface he might not seem as good as Superman and the rest of the league do question him a lot but he is a great character I love too. Not saying exactly the same BUT I not made a nerdy comparison for a while lol one reason I say not the same as IMO Batman in comics is god-modded too much as his plans can border on the silly side like knowing deadshot the man who never misses would miss! **** that. As luckily Damon is more flawed than batman and Stefan more flawed than superman which is good. But my point is Stefan the character is better with others. Some are like that. Look at friends. Great show. Spin off with just joey = terrible. BUT Joey ion friends was fantastic. Except Stefan ain't no Superman and by the way, I'm a Batman fan... Surprised? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 12:35:19 GMT -5
It's not a " a Stefan bias" It's a fact they met "good stefan" first. People mostly hate change. They first impressions matter and they do. Once people make up their minds on someone in can be hard to change it. Knowing Stefan as good and Damon as bad first the characters would logically find it hard to change their views.Has Stefan done evil? YES I keep saying he done many bad things. No one should argue that. My point is people make up their minds on someone fast. I'm looking at it as if they are real. It's not bias as I have said i prefer Damon to stefan. I just know it's hard for people to get rid of reputations. To the characters Stefan is the friend who did wrong. Like in real life a friend who one day breaks law. BUT damon they met evil. He is like an ex-con going straight at this point. People know him as the evil one and it can be hard for them to not. It's not fair, Neither brother is "the good" or "the bad" one but it is realistic for them to stick to what they expect. People love their status Quo. It's why if the bus late they complain, if it rains in summer, if they burn toast. People are misunderstanding me. I don't think the sun shines out of Stefan. I don't think Damon is the evillest person ever. I just think people want normality to drift back to. I know i freak out if my day is disrupted slightly or when things change. So i just feel the characters are reacting closer to what they would if the show was real. I'm sorry if people are offended by it or think I am putting stefan as some kind of holy saint. I am just pointing myself in their shoes. As for my comments earlier on fans I think Doppelgänger nailed it. I think this show is worse tha others fan wise as it pits fans against themselves so much that it's has become "us vs them" so much. I mean it's a CW teen show , It's not even the best on the network (flash) so instead of enjoying it and loving all fans. It becomes the "us vs them" that imo hurts a fanbase more than other fanbases. Hence i come here as it's a little "fairer" even if not 100% equal. I don't know to me the bolded sounds a bit odd. And I don't mean just from a TVD perspective. I mean in general. So any show that introduces a character a certain way, they're required to stay that way for seasons on end, never changing from their initial development, never growing, always being viewed the same way by characters no matter what they do? This isn't a cartoon or comedy series. It's a drama series with the intent to have realistic characters (in the context of said universe of course since vampires and the like exist so it's a supernatural drama to be more exact) and in depth development of it's characters. So a character who has started off with a pretty good morality compass, can suddenly do something bad and disgusting, but it's okay, he started off as good so all the characters can ignore what he did and he gets no consequences on the matter at all. Everyone should proceed to ignore said character and pretend like he's the same good guy they met in episode one. And this is the flaw in JP's writing. Maybe she should consider writing cartoons with the whole 'cops and robbers theme' since there she can keep one character as the blatant hero and villain. My cousin who watches The Originals has even been complaining lately about the writing and how characters aren't taking ownership for their own actions and instead being hypocrites or ungrateful and overall is feeling like the narrative isn't making any sense with these characters and all I could do was just laugh and tell him, welcome to the world of JP's writing. Don't come back to TVD, it's much worst over here, trust me. And that reason is Stefan's character. I mean JP has a clear bias of Stefan as the writing, like Vampirelust mentioned, Stefan always has characters magically forgiven him, all the girls magically show up on screen and fall for him or see him as special and these same girls will automatically see Damon as evil and hate him, despite just being a newly introduced character lol. Even his blood addition was brushed off like nothing, no one cares that he's a ripper, or puts everyone in danger for his revenge schemes of Klaus and Julian. Having characters put on a smile and shrug, 'Well, who cares if you put us in danger, we met you as the good guy.' comes off as dumb writing. If neither brother is good or evil, and they've shown actions otherwise, then naturally the characters should grow out of that mindset, not continually default back to it. Really this show just has really awkward writing and dialogue. Why's it so obsessed with these titles of hero/good/bad brother anyways? Why does a character literally state, 'Ugh, no I can't do this. I'm the good brother.' like Stefan. Which he does in 1x19 for a refresher. Does anyone recite out loud how they're a 'good citizen' or something? It's just not natural dialogue and sounds like something that someone would say to CONVINCE themselves of the fact. Why does this show break immersion so much with literally new characters coming in on the scene and automatically hating Damon? How the hell do they even know about Damon and his relationship with Stefan or Elena? If a character comes on the scene and is acting in good standing with the characters around them, then naturally the characters will treat them good. If they suddenly do something uncalled for, then the characters will react/acknowledge that action and adjust their mindset. TVD does not do this in the slightest. The characters act the same regardless and it doesn't make sense. This would be like if characters on the Flash reacted to a character's sudden turn for the worst like nothing, because oh, they first met said character as good first right? Does that make sense to you? I can tell you that other series I'm keeping up with, characters are treated equally and with logical sense. There actions do the talking and when they step out of line and do something that's unlike them or doesn't sit well with someone, characters react accordingly, things get acknowledged and there's a natural progress of character development that doesn't suddenly get erased or retconned like it never happened. I've never seen a show written to this extent with characters such ignorant of any sense of change or acknowledgment of a character's actions. Where one character is constantly the center of having their finger pointed at him and everyone's obsessed with propping this one character up constantly as the good guy. But hey, it's not like I've seen every show there is out there right? Anyone else seen a show written the way JP is writing TVD? If so, please tell me so I can stay very far away from it. |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jul 8, 2016 13:01:09 GMT -5
It's not a " a Stefan bias" It's a fact they met "good stefan" first. People mostly hate change. They first impressions matter and they do. Once people make up their minds on someone in can be hard to change it. Knowing Stefan as good and Damon as bad first the characters would logically find it hard to change their views.Has Stefan done evil? YES I keep saying he done many bad things. No one should argue that. My point is people make up their minds on someone fast. I'm looking at it as if they are real. It's not bias as I have said i prefer Damon to stefan. I just know it's hard for people to get rid of reputations. To the characters Stefan is the friend who did wrong. Like in real life a friend who one day breaks law. BUT damon they met evil. He is like an ex-con going straight at this point. People know him as the evil one and it can be hard for them to not. It's not fair, Neither brother is "the good" or "the bad" one but it is realistic for them to stick to what they expect. People love their status Quo. It's why if the bus late they complain, if it rains in summer, if they burn toast. People are misunderstanding me. I don't think the sun shines out of Stefan. I don't think Damon is the evillest person ever. I just think people want normality to drift back to. I know i freak out if my day is disrupted slightly or when things change. So i just feel the characters are reacting closer to what they would if the show was real. I'm sorry if people are offended by it or think I am putting stefan as some kind of holy saint. I am just pointing myself in their shoes. As for my comments earlier on fans I think Doppelgänger nailed it. I think this show is worse tha others fan wise as it pits fans against themselves so much that it's has become "us vs them" so much. I mean it's a CW teen show , It's not even the best on the network (flash) so instead of enjoying it and loving all fans. It becomes the "us vs them" that imo hurts a fanbase more than other fanbases. Hence i come here as it's a little "fairer" even if not 100% equal. I don't know to me the bolded sounds a bit odd. And I don't mean just from a TVD perspective. I mean in general. So any show that introduces a character a certain way, they're required to stay that way for seasons on end, never changing from their initial development, never growing, always being viewed the same way by characters no matter what they do? This isn't a cartoon or comedy series. It's a drama series with the intent to have realistic characters (in the context of said universe of course since vampires and the like exist so it's a supernatural drama to be more exact) and in depth development of it's characters. So a character who has started off with a pretty good morality compass, can suddenly do something bad and disgusting, but it's okay, he started off as good so all the characters can ignore what he did and he gets no consequences on the matter at all. Everyone should proceed to ignore said character and pretend like he's the same good guy they met in episode one. And this is the flaw in JP's writing. Maybe she should consider writing cartoons with the whole 'cops and robbers theme' since there she can keep one character as the blatant hero and villain. My cousin who watches The Originals has even been complaining lately about the writing and how characters aren't taking ownership for their own actions and instead being hypocrites or ungrateful and overall is feeling like the narrative isn't making any sense with these characters and all I could do was just laugh and tell him, welcome to the world of JP's writing. Don't come back to TVD, it's much worst over here, trust me. And that reason is Stefan's character. I mean JP has a clear bias of Stefan as the writing, like Vampirelust mentioned, Stefan always has characters magically forgiven him, all the girls magically show up on screen and fall for him or see him as special and these same girls will automatically see Damon as evil and hate him, despite just being a newly introduced character lol. Even his blood addition was brushed off like nothing, no one cares that he's a ripper, or puts everyone in danger for his revenge schemes of Klaus and Julian. Having characters put on a smile and shrug, 'Well, who cares if you put us in danger, we met you as the good guy.' comes off as dumb writing. If neither brother is good or evil, and they've shown actions otherwise, then naturally the characters should grow out of that mindset, not continually default back to it. Really this show just has really awkward writing and dialogue. Why's it so obsessed with these titles of hero/good/bad brother anyways? Why does a character literally state, 'Ugh, no I can't do this. I'm the good brother.' like Stefan. Which he does in 1x19 for a refresher. Does anyone recite out loud how they're a 'good citizen' or something? It's just not natural dialogue and sounds like something that someone would say to CONVINCE themselves of the fact. Why does this show break immersion so much with literally new characters coming in on the scene and automatically hating Damon? How the hell do they even know about Damon and his relationship with Stefan or Elena? If a character comes on the scene and is acting in good standing with the characters around them, then naturally the characters will treat them good. If they suddenly do something uncalled for, then the characters will react/acknowledge that action and adjust their mindset. TVD does not do this in the slightest. The characters act the same regardless and it doesn't make sense. This would be like if characters on the Flash reacted to a character's sudden turn for the worst like nothing, because oh, they first met said character as good first right? Does that make sense to you? I can tell you that other series I'm keeping up with, characters are treated equally and with logical sense. There actions do the talking and when they step out of line and do something that's unlike them or doesn't sit well with someone, characters react accordingly, things get acknowledged and there's a natural progress of character development that doesn't suddenly get erased or retconned like it never happened. I've never seen a show written to this extent with characters such ignorant of any sense of change or acknowledgment of a character's actions. Where one character is constantly the center of having their finger pointed at him and everyone's obsessed with propping this one character up constantly as the good guy. But hey, it's not like I've seen every show there is out there right? Anyone else seen a show written the way JP is writing TVD? If so, please tell me so I can stay very far away from it. Other than soap operas, no, and this show comes off more like a night time soap opera than a serious drama these days, which is sad because it really used to have much better writing back when Kevin Williamson was still involved and I have no doubt he questioned some of JPs writing and explained to her why it didn't make sense for the characters but now he's not involved like that, or wasn't. I wonder if he's really coming back. I sure hope so! |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 8, 2016 13:30:45 GMT -5
It's not a " a Stefan bias" It's a fact they met "good stefan" first. People mostly hate change. They first impressions matter and they do. Once people make up their minds on someone in can be hard to change it. Knowing Stefan as good and Damon as bad first the characters would logically find it hard to change their views.Has Stefan done evil? YES I keep saying he done many bad things. No one should argue that. My point is people make up their minds on someone fast. I'm looking at it as if they are real. It's not bias as I have said i prefer Damon to stefan. I just know it's hard for people to get rid of reputations. To the characters Stefan is the friend who did wrong. Like in real life a friend who one day breaks law. BUT damon they met evil. He is like an ex-con going straight at this point. People know him as the evil one and it can be hard for them to not. It's not fair, Neither brother is "the good" or "the bad" one but it is realistic for them to stick to what they expect. People love their status Quo. It's why if the bus late they complain, if it rains in summer, if they burn toast. People are misunderstanding me. I don't think the sun shines out of Stefan. I don't think Damon is the evillest person ever. I just think people want normality to drift back to. I know i freak out if my day is disrupted slightly or when things change. So i just feel the characters are reacting closer to what they would if the show was real. I'm sorry if people are offended by it or think I am putting stefan as some kind of holy saint. I am just pointing myself in their shoes. As for my comments earlier on fans I think Doppelgänger nailed it. I think this show is worse tha others fan wise as it pits fans against themselves so much that it's has become "us vs them" so much. I mean it's a CW teen show , It's not even the best on the network (flash) so instead of enjoying it and loving all fans. It becomes the "us vs them" that imo hurts a fanbase more than other fanbases. Hence i come here as it's a little "fairer" even if not 100% equal. I don't know to me the bolded sounds a bit odd. And I don't mean just from a TVD perspective. I mean in general. So any show that introduces a character a certain way, they're required to stay that way for seasons on end, never changing from their initial development, never growing, always being viewed the same way by characters no matter what they do? This isn't a cartoon or comedy series. It's a drama series with the intent to have realistic characters (in the context of said universe of course since vampires and the like exist so it's a supernatural drama to be more exact) and in depth development of it's characters. So a character who has started off with a pretty good morality compass, can suddenly do something bad and disgusting, but it's okay, he started off as good so all the characters can ignore what he did and he gets no consequences on the matter at all. Everyone should proceed to ignore said character and pretend like he's the same good guy they met in episode one. No but it takes time like real life. Hell look at others shows. The big one Buffyverse. People viewed Angel as good and Spike as evil even after he changed. But that show was much better than TVD in it's prime (can't beat joss whedon writing when it's at it's best) as Angel the spinoff was. No one complained. It's about keeping the real life aspect + keeping characters familiar. Hell even Dragonball does this with Vegeta. It's common thing that is grounded in how people actually act. And those shows have longer time pass per season. Also stefan at his evilest did get people giving him crap over his actions but they saw it as "saving him" to make him like old. Damon they view it as him and he has to "change" to be good. It's a simple easy thing that every show trys to do. But on tvd the fans act like "Oh it's Damon so anytime a character gives him crap it's cause *insert character" is wrong and the writers are bias to *insert character*" Instead of realising 1 year vs 100 is a pretty big difference. He has literally spent more time evil than good. So the good is seen as the not normal stuff. While stefan spent longer good than evil so evil is seen as not him. It's like if I said to you Superman has used red kryptonite. How should be people think? The don't think "oh he's the villian now" where as if i said "The joker is now good?" in the comics you know batman will expect the old joker. It's basic human instinct to expect the familiar. P.s Doppelgänger. I like batman too. I only don't like him when his written poorly and is too good at everything. On the whole i like batman. No i am not surprised. Him + Spider-man (peter not miles lol) are two heroes almost everyone loves |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 17:46:00 GMT -5
I don't know to me the bolded sounds a bit odd. And I don't mean just from a TVD perspective. I mean in general. So any show that introduces a character a certain way, they're required to stay that way for seasons on end, never changing from their initial development, never growing, always being viewed the same way by characters no matter what they do? This isn't a cartoon or comedy series. It's a drama series with the intent to have realistic characters (in the context of said universe of course since vampires and the like exist so it's a supernatural drama to be more exact) and in depth development of it's characters. So a character who has started off with a pretty good morality compass, can suddenly do something bad and disgusting, but it's okay, he started off as good so all the characters can ignore what he did and he gets no consequences on the matter at all. Everyone should proceed to ignore said character and pretend like he's the same good guy they met in episode one. No but it takes time like real life. Hell look at others shows. The big one Buffyverse. People viewed Angel as good and Spike as evil even after he changed. But that show was much better than TVD in it's prime (can't beat joss whedon writing when it's at it's best) as Angel the spinoff was. No one complained. It's about keeping the real life aspect + keeping characters familiar. Hell even Dragonball does this with Vegeta. It's common thing that is grounded in how people actually act. And those shows have longer time pass per season. Also stefan at his evilest did get people giving him crap over his actions but they saw it as "saving him" to make him like old. Damon they view it as him and he has to "change" to be good. It's a simple easy thing that every show trys to do. But on tvd the fans act like "Oh it's Damon so anytime a character gives him crap it's cause *insert character" is wrong and the writers are bias to *insert character*" Instead of realising 1 year vs 100 is a pretty big difference. He has literally spent more time evil than good. So the good is seen as the not normal stuff. While stefan spent longer good than evil so evil is seen as not him. It's like if I said to you Superman has used red kryptonite. How should be people think? The don't think "oh he's the villian now" where as if i said "The joker is now good?" in the comics you know batman will expect the old joker. It's basic human instinct to expect the familiar. P.s Doppelgänger. I like batman too. I only don't like him when his written poorly and is too good at everything. On the whole i like batman. No i am not surprised. Him + Spider-man (peter not miles lol) are two heroes almost everyone loves Since you're bringing up other shows, which I did use an example of the Flash, but you didn't quote that part of my post, so I'm going to repost what I said.
If a character comes on the scene and is acting in good standing with the characters around them, then naturally the characters will treat them good. If they suddenly do something uncalled for, then the characters will react/acknowledge that action and adjust their mindset. TVD does not do this in the slightest. The characters act the same regardless and it doesn't make sense. This would be like if characters on the Flash reacted to a character's sudden turn for the worst like nothing, because oh, they first met said character as good first right? Does that make sense to you?And I'll also bring up another point that was left out again regarding Stefan. JP has a clear bias of Stefan as the writing, like Vampirelust mentioned, Stefan always has characters magically forgiven him, all the girls magically show up on screen and fall for him or see him as special and these same girls will automatically see Damon as evil and hate him, despite just being a newly introduced character lol. Even his blood addition was brushed off like nothing, no one cares that he's a ripper, or puts everyone in danger for his revenge schemes of Klaus and Julian. Having characters put on a smile and shrug, 'Well, who cares if you put us in danger, we met you as the good guy.' comes off as dumb writing.
If neither brother is good or evil, and they've shown actions otherwise, then naturally the characters should grow out of that mindset, not continually default back to it. Really this show just has really awkward writing and dialogue. Why's it so obsessed with these titles of hero/good/bad brother anyways? Why does a character literally state, 'Ugh, no I can't do this. I'm the good brother.' like Stefan. Which he does in 1x19 for a refresher. Does anyone recite out loud how they're a 'good citizen' or something? It's just not natural dialogue and sounds like something that someone would say to CONVINCE themselves of the fact. If Stefan's supposed to be naturally good, why does he have to repeat it to himself like that as if it's something he needs to keep repeating to himself to play a part. Unless you interpret this scene differently? I'll again pose the question of why this show breaks immersion so much. With new characters literally coming in on the scene and already having a hate for Damon when they're just meeting the character. Wouldn't they be chill with a character they just met until given an actual reason to get wary/upset with them? Rayna's a character who comes on the scene and for some reason already knows everything about Damon and Stefan's relationship. How much sense does that honestly make? I'm repeating these points since it wasn't exactly addressed and I'm curious what you have to say about them since this isn't me making up stuff, it's how Stefan's character is literally written. |
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Post by vampirelust on Jul 8, 2016 20:03:00 GMT -5
Chris. Im going to bring back a point that you keep mentioning and challenge it, only because you are using it at a Base for your reasoning. You say that 100 years of bad stuff takes time to resolve, but the problem with that is that this eternity of misery is all tell and no show. However, what has been shown is stefans misery caused by his own bloodlust aside from the 1994 stuff. there is nothing whatsoever to validate stefans claim that Damon has been a blight and a burden for stefan to carry for 150 years. Are u forgetting that Damon was the wronged party? stefan knew Katherine was involved with damon, he didn't care, he betrayed Damon by tipping his father off about Katherine, then he forced Damon to turn. stefan is not a reliable narrator because in canon we have shown that Damon did not actually follow through on his threat of ensuring stefan lead a life of of misery. If stefan did, it was a misery of his own creation and actions. Damon was far from an angel but he never projects his behaviour or actions on to stefan, he owns them. So far, aside from 1994, Damon actions have not impacted stefan but the same can nor be said in reverse.
The superman/batman thing I don't get because I'm not really familiar so that went over my head a bit, but I appreciate the sentiment and will have to take your word on that but overall, i have to agree with anbu and concur that in serial drama, that characters should evolve and react realistically to events as they unfold otherwise what is the point? We might as well watch Wile Coyote try to catch beep beep, forever.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jul 8, 2016 21:37:12 GMT -5
Chris. Im going to bring back a point that you keep mentioning and challenge it, only because you are using it at a Base for your reasoning. You say that 100 years of bad stuff takes time to resolve, but the problem with that is that this eternity of misery is all tell and no show. However, what has been shown is stefans misery caused by his own bloodlust aside from the 1994 stuff. there is nothing whatsoever to validate stefans claim that Damon has been a blight and a burden for stefan to carry for 150 years. Are u forgetting that Damon was the wronged party? stefan knew Katherine was involved with damon, he didn't care, he betrayed Damon by tipping his father off about Katherine, then he forced Damon to turn. stefan is not a reliable narrator because in canon we have shown that Damon did not actually follow through on his threat of ensuring stefan lead a life of of misery. If stefan did, it was a misery of his own creation and actions. Damon was far from an angel but he never projects his behaviour or actions on to stefan, he owns them. So far, aside from 1994, Damon actions have not impacted stefan but the same can nor be said in reverse. The superman/batman thing I don't get because I'm not really familiar so that went over my head a bit, but I appreciate the sentiment and will have to take your word on that but overall, i have to agree with anbu and concur that in serial drama, that characters should evolve and react realistically to events as they unfold otherwise what is the point? We might as well watch Wile Coyote try to catch beep beep, forever. I always wanted Wylie to catch the roadrunner...maybe that's where all my problems began...LOL I do find it puzzling that some people just never see it the way we see it and they generally tend to be Stefan fans overall. I guess they're OK with Stefan's constant condemnation of Damon from day one until today. Some have said that he deserves it. I'm not sure why he deserves it any more than Stefan deserves it for murdering an entire village on a ripper binge or even his more recent ripper binge. But, I mean who told all that crud to Valerie so she could become the next Damon condemning mouthpiece? The only person she was ever around all the time, Stefan. I don't understand why people don't realize that all the negative stuff about Damon comes directly from Stefan and his ultra negative view of Damon not from Damon's actual actions in a lot of cases and he passes it on to anyone he comes in contact with. In real life I would call that person an enemy, certainly NOT a brother. And you are absolutely right about Damon pretty much staying away from Stefan for the 150 years. He was doing his own thing and they only occasionally came into contact with each other. The narrative doesn't even particularly make sense as to why they had so much animosity going on between them when they arrived in MF but I realize trying to fill in the blanks later probably accounts for that. You also mentioned 1994 and one thing I want to remind everyone of is that what he did that day stuck with him. He felt remorse. That was a big reveal about Damon for the audience. It was enough to make Bonnie reconsider her hatred of Damon so why is anyone still OK with the characters hating him after everything we know now? I really don't get it. One of the arguments some fans always had was that Stefan felt remorse but Damon didn't and that was the big difference between them. Well they were wrong weren't they? But did that make any difference to those fans? Nope! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2016 8:44:21 GMT -5
Chris. Im going to bring back a point that you keep mentioning and challenge it, only because you are using it at a Base for your reasoning. You say that 100 years of bad stuff takes time to resolve, but the problem with that is that this eternity of misery is all tell and no show. However, what has been shown is stefans misery caused by his own bloodlust aside from the 1994 stuff. there is nothing whatsoever to validate stefans claim that Damon has been a blight and a burden for stefan to carry for 150 years. Are u forgetting that Damon was the wronged party? stefan knew Katherine was involved with damon, he didn't care, he betrayed Damon by tipping his father off about Katherine, then he forced Damon to turn. stefan is not a reliable narrator because in canon we have shown that Damon did not actually follow through on his threat of ensuring stefan lead a life of of misery. If stefan did, it was a misery of his own creation and actions. Damon was far from an angel but he never projects his behaviour or actions on to stefan, he owns them. So far, aside from 1994, Damon actions have not impacted stefan but the same can nor be said in reverse. The superman/batman thing I don't get because I'm not really familiar so that went over my head a bit, but I appreciate the sentiment and will have to take your word on that but overall, i have to agree with anbu and concur that in serial drama, that characters should evolve and react realistically to events as they unfold otherwise what is the point? We might as well watch Wile Coyote try to catch beep beep, forever. I always wanted Wylie to catch the roadrunner...maybe that's where all my problems began...LOL I do find it puzzling that some people just never see it the way we see it and they generally tend to be Stefan fans overall. I guess they're OK with Stefan's constant condemnation of Damon from day one until today. Some have said that he deserves it. I'm not sure why he deserves it any more than Stefan deserves it for murdering an entire village on a ripper binge or even his more recent ripper binge. But, I mean who told all that crud to Valerie so she could become the next Damon condemning mouthpiece? The only person she was ever around all the time, Stefan. I don't understand why people don't realize that all the negative stuff about Damon comes directly from Stefan and his ultra negative view of Damon not from Damon's actual actions in a lot of cases and he passes it on to anyone he comes in contact with. In real life I would call that person an enemy, certainly NOT a brother. And you are absolutely right about Damon pretty much staying away from Stefan for the 150 years. He was doing his own thing and they only occasionally came into contact with each other. The narrative doesn't even particularly make sense as to why they had so much animosity going on between them when they arrived in MF but I realize trying to fill in the blanks later probably accounts for that. You also mentioned 1994 and one thing I want to remind everyone of is that what he did that day stuck with him. He felt remorse. That was a big reveal about Damon for the audience. It was enough to make Bonnie reconsider her hatred of Damon so why is anyone still OK with the characters hating him after everything we know now? I really don't get it. One of the arguments some fans always had was that Stefan felt remorse but Damon didn't and that was the big difference between them. Well they were wrong weren't they? But did that make any difference to those fans? Nope! Another thing is that the writing sure makes it incredibly easy to be Stefan fans and biased to him overall. Everything is framed in a way that whatever Stefan says is right, and whatever Damon says is wrong. Even when it's obvious Damon is being the sensible party. Damon says to not just rush recklessly towards Julian without a plan. Stefan says that he wants his revenge against Julian right away. Damon goes along with it cause Stefan's being a persistent thorn in his rug, and in the end, Damon gets stabbed by the Phoenix stone, followed by Stefan right after. It's Stefan's fault they were even in that position to begin with. Yet the writing will never address this as ultimately being Stefan's actions that led them to this predicament. It'll be framed as Damon's fault and the characters blaming Damon for being in the state he is. Like Doppel said if you're one of those fans who believe Damon deserves to be condemned by Stefan at every turn and pretty much just go by what characters say without paying much attention to what actually takes place on the screen, it's easy to feel that this is 'fair' writing and that it 'makes sense' for characters to be reacting this way. Others on the other hand, just see the big flaws in the writing, being 'told things' in a show and seeing the opposite play out. Of course some casual fans simply don't remember every thing that has taken place so when the dialogue of some characters come in and change up what really happened, that's going to come off like the way things were when it wasn't. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 9, 2016 9:02:57 GMT -5
No but it takes time like real life. Hell look at others shows. The big one Buffyverse. People viewed Angel as good and Spike as evil even after he changed. But that show was much better than TVD in it's prime (can't beat joss whedon writing when it's at it's best) as Angel the spinoff was. No one complained. It's about keeping the real life aspect + keeping characters familiar. Hell even Dragonball does this with Vegeta. It's common thing that is grounded in how people actually act. And those shows have longer time pass per season. Also stefan at his evilest did get people giving him crap over his actions but they saw it as "saving him" to make him like old. Damon they view it as him and he has to "change" to be good. It's a simple easy thing that every show trys to do. But on tvd the fans act like "Oh it's Damon so anytime a character gives him crap it's cause *insert character" is wrong and the writers are bias to *insert character*" Instead of realising 1 year vs 100 is a pretty big difference. He has literally spent more time evil than good. So the good is seen as the not normal stuff. While stefan spent longer good than evil so evil is seen as not him. It's like if I said to you Superman has used red kryptonite. How should be people think? The don't think "oh he's the villian now" where as if i said "The joker is now good?" in the comics you know batman will expect the old joker. It's basic human instinct to expect the familiar. P.s Doppelgänger. I like batman too. I only don't like him when his written poorly and is too good at everything. On the whole i like batman. No i am not surprised. Him + Spider-man (peter not miles lol) are two heroes almost everyone loves Since you're bringing up other shows, which I did use an example of the Flash, but you didn't quote that part of my post, so I'm going to repost what I said.
If a character comes on the scene and is acting in good standing with the characters around them, then naturally the characters will treat them good. If they suddenly do something uncalled for, then the characters will react/acknowledge that action and adjust their mindset. TVD does not do this in the slightest. The characters act the same regardless and it doesn't make sense. This would be like if characters on the Flash reacted to a character's sudden turn for the worst like nothing, because oh, they first met said character as good first right? Does that make sense to you?And I'll also bring up another point that was left out again regarding Stefan. JP has a clear bias of Stefan as the writing, like Vampirelust mentioned, Stefan always has characters magically forgiven him, all the girls magically show up on screen and fall for him or see him as special and these same girls will automatically see Damon as evil and hate him, despite just being a newly introduced character lol. Even his blood addition was brushed off like nothing, no one cares that he's a ripper, or puts everyone in danger for his revenge schemes of Klaus and Julian. Having characters put on a smile and shrug, 'Well, who cares if you put us in danger, we met you as the good guy.' comes off as dumb writing.
If neither brother is good or evil, and they've shown actions otherwise, then naturally the characters should grow out of that mindset, not continually default back to it. Really this show just has really awkward writing and dialogue. Why's it so obsessed with these titles of hero/good/bad brother anyways? Why does a character literally state, 'Ugh, no I can't do this. I'm the good brother.' like Stefan. Which he does in 1x19 for a refresher. Does anyone recite out loud how they're a 'good citizen' or something? It's just not natural dialogue and sounds like something that someone would say to CONVINCE themselves of the fact. If Stefan's supposed to be naturally good, why does he have to repeat it to himself like that as if it's something he needs to keep repeating to himself to play a part. Unless you interpret this scene differently? I'll again pose the question of why this show breaks immersion so much. With new characters literally coming in on the scene and already having a hate for Damon when they're just meeting the character. Wouldn't they be chill with a character they just met until given an actual reason to get wary/upset with them? Rayna's a character who comes on the scene and for some reason already knows everything about Damon and Stefan's relationship. How much sense does that honestly make? I'm repeating these points since it wasn't exactly addressed and I'm curious what you have to say about them since this isn't me making up stuff, it's how Stefan's character is literally written. First the "I don't hurt people. I don't do that. I'm the good brother." Is way out of context. He was reminding himself at the time as he was struggling with the blood. He didn't want to be Damon who at the time was at his Evilest and it was stefan trying to talk himself down. It's like he introduced himself as "hi I'm the good brother" He was stopping himself becoming what he hated. As for the flash thing. he was revealed to be villain and staying that way. Stefan's is more addiction. He didnt turn in to a villain and it be revealed everything he did was for evil. Hell he became the ripper again to save his brother when he turned. The characters didnt react the same as it's a very different situation. Stefan was not lying to eat everyone. He was battling an addiction one he struggled with his whole after-life. It makes him a hero the fact he stated as others in the show did that rippers always have that urge. Yet stefan chose to feed off bunnies and was shown to be trying to good to do the right thing. The new characters yes. They should not be judging Damon as harsh BUT to be fair Damon says sarcastic stuff and threatens people a lot that it's obvious Damon has changed but does NOT want everyone thinking he's soft or weaker. Hell how often had he mocked Stefan for doing what was good and not just best for himself? which is also part of it as Damon is changing, I say changing as he does not always do the best thing if someone he cares for is not evolved. That's ok though as Damon likes been hated he likes been feared. So it's obvious he carries himself in a certain way. As for how does Rayna know that one is pretty obvious. Klaus knew , Others knew. They are the brothers who battled the originals , silas , Kai and more. It's pretty much a given at this time that word has spread of them in the supernatural community. Plus she was a vampire huntress. Hunters tend to investigate their surroundings. I'd believe her knowing of them. The problem i see is everyone saying this is bias against Stefan so his flaws are all they look at. Both brothers are awesome. But both are different. I mean look at the situation with Elena. They both agreed if she chose they'd leave town. When she seemed to pick Stefan , damon refused to leave. When she chose Damon stefan not only said he was hapy for his brother, he left like he said! On flip side we have Damon literally killing himself to save stefan. So Obviously he does good too. Part of what makes Damon Damon is the fact he enjoys been the "bad" one. He might not be evil, he might even be good. But he acts in a way that people dont see him as changed also. Stefan may have a dark side but he does everything he can to hide that part of himself. I still see it as people don't see Damon as fully changed yet as he was evil for so long that its hard to see. Does the write have Stefan bias? No I don't think so as she also makes Damon right more than any other. However She writes it so the characters feel like the ones we love. I mean it's not just Damon that get's crap. How many villians have shown up and targeted Stefan? Also stefan has killed lots. Damon has killed more people thsat they know though. I mean : Vicki Donovan , Jeremy , Lexi , Zach Salvatore, Mason Lockwood and more. "oh they came back" Doesn't undo it. That's like saying Frieza was not that bad as they wished people back. The sad fact is personal deaths are always worse. Tell someone 100 died in another country or 1 person they know died and that 1 becomes a bigger issue to them. I think on the show nearly every main character has had someone they cared for killed by Damon. That only increases how hard it is for the main characters to forgive him. That's just how I see it. I get not all do but that's my take and like said as unpoular as it is i like nearly every character not just 2 or 3 |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2016 13:56:19 GMT -5
Since you're bringing up other shows, which I did use an example of the Flash, but you didn't quote that part of my post, so I'm going to repost what I said.
If a character comes on the scene and is acting in good standing with the characters around them, then naturally the characters will treat them good. If they suddenly do something uncalled for, then the characters will react/acknowledge that action and adjust their mindset. TVD does not do this in the slightest. The characters act the same regardless and it doesn't make sense. This would be like if characters on the Flash reacted to a character's sudden turn for the worst like nothing, because oh, they first met said character as good first right? Does that make sense to you?And I'll also bring up another point that was left out again regarding Stefan. JP has a clear bias of Stefan as the writing, like Vampirelust mentioned, Stefan always has characters magically forgiven him, all the girls magically show up on screen and fall for him or see him as special and these same girls will automatically see Damon as evil and hate him, despite just being a newly introduced character lol. Even his blood addition was brushed off like nothing, no one cares that he's a ripper, or puts everyone in danger for his revenge schemes of Klaus and Julian. Having characters put on a smile and shrug, 'Well, who cares if you put us in danger, we met you as the good guy.' comes off as dumb writing.
If neither brother is good or evil, and they've shown actions otherwise, then naturally the characters should grow out of that mindset, not continually default back to it. Really this show just has really awkward writing and dialogue. Why's it so obsessed with these titles of hero/good/bad brother anyways? Why does a character literally state, 'Ugh, no I can't do this. I'm the good brother.' like Stefan. Which he does in 1x19 for a refresher. Does anyone recite out loud how they're a 'good citizen' or something? It's just not natural dialogue and sounds like something that someone would say to CONVINCE themselves of the fact. If Stefan's supposed to be naturally good, why does he have to repeat it to himself like that as if it's something he needs to keep repeating to himself to play a part. Unless you interpret this scene differently? I'll again pose the question of why this show breaks immersion so much. With new characters literally coming in on the scene and already having a hate for Damon when they're just meeting the character. Wouldn't they be chill with a character they just met until given an actual reason to get wary/upset with them? Rayna's a character who comes on the scene and for some reason already knows everything about Damon and Stefan's relationship. How much sense does that honestly make? I'm repeating these points since it wasn't exactly addressed and I'm curious what you have to say about them since this isn't me making up stuff, it's how Stefan's character is literally written. First the "I don't hurt people. I don't do that. I'm the good brother." Is way out of context. He was reminding himself at the time as he was struggling with the blood. He didn't want to be Damon who at the time was at his Evilest and it was stefan trying to talk himself down. It's like he introduced himself as "hi I'm the good brother" He was stopping himself becoming what he hated. As for the flash thing. he was revealed to be villain and staying that way. Stefan's is more addiction. He didnt turn in to a villain and it be revealed everything he did was for evil. Hell he became the ripper again to save his brother when he turned. The characters didnt react the same as it's a very different situation. Stefan was not lying to eat everyone. He was battling an addiction one he struggled with his whole after-life. It makes him a hero the fact he stated as others in the show did that rippers always have that urge. Yet stefan chose to feed off bunnies and was shown to be trying to good to do the right thing. The new characters yes. They should not be judging Damon as harsh BUT to be fair Damon says sarcastic stuff and threatens people a lot that it's obvious Damon has changed but does NOT want everyone thinking he's soft or weaker. Hell how often had he mocked Stefan for doing what was good and not just best for himself? which is also part of it as Damon is changing, I say changing as he does not always do the best thing if someone he cares for is not evolved. That's ok though as Damon likes been hated he likes been feared. So it's obvious he carries himself in a certain way. As for how does Rayna know that one is pretty obvious. Klaus knew , Others knew. They are the brothers who battled the originals , silas , Kai and more. It's pretty much a given at this time that word has spread of them in the supernatural community. Plus she was a vampire huntress. Hunters tend to investigate their surroundings. I'd believe her knowing of them. The problem i see is everyone saying this is bias against Stefan so his flaws are all they look at. Both brothers are awesome. But both are different. I mean look at the situation with Elena. They both agreed if she chose they'd leave town. When she seemed to pick Stefan , damon refused to leave. When she chose Damon stefan not only said he was hapy for his brother, he left like he said! On flip side we have Damon literally killing himself to save stefan. So Obviously he does good too. Part of what makes Damon Damon is the fact he enjoys been the "bad" one. He might not be evil, he might even be good. But he acts in a way that people dont see him as changed also. Stefan may have a dark side but he does everything he can to hide that part of himself. I still see it as people don't see Damon as fully changed yet as he was evil for so long that its hard to see. Does the write have Stefan bias? No I don't think so as she also makes Damon right more than any other. However She writes it so the characters feel like the ones we love. I mean it's not just Damon that get's crap. How many villians have shown up and targeted Stefan? Also stefan has killed lots. Damon has killed more people thsat they know though. I mean : Vicki Donovan , Jeremy , Lexi , Zach Salvatore, Mason Lockwood and more. "oh they came back" Doesn't undo it. That's like saying Frieza was not that bad as they wished people back. The sad fact is personal deaths are always worse. Tell someone 100 died in another country or 1 person they know died and that 1 becomes a bigger issue to them. I think on the show nearly every main character has had someone they cared for killed by Damon. That only increases how hard it is for the main characters to forgive him. That's just how I see it. I get not all do but that's my take and like said as unpoular as it is i like nearly every character not just 2 or 3
First the "I don't hurt people. I don't do that. I'm the good brother." Is way out of context. He was reminding himself at the time as he was struggling with the blood. He didn't want to be Damon who at the time was at his Evilest and it was stefan trying to talk himself down. It's like he introduced himself as "hi I'm the good brother" He was stopping himself becoming what he hated.You stated it exactly as I put it. Stefan's saying that to convince himself and he uses Damon as a way to make himself feel better. The thing about Damon is that he doesn't pretend to be anything else he isn't and he wasn't trying to hide anything. Whereas Stefan tried to pretend he was human and never let anyone on that he was a vampire, and certainly not a vampire with a bloodlust problem. Stefan sounds like a patient in therapy who has to repeat a phrase over and over to convince themselves of the fact. The dialogue is unnatural in general because he's breaking the fourth wall to remind us that he's the 'good one' but if I'm watching it in the context of the scene taking place, it's more so Stefan like you said trying to talk himself down and get back on track. It's always funny how Stefan always has to make himself look good in comparison to Damon. His blood addiction has literally nothing to do with Damon and it's certainly not a matter of good or bad. This same scene could have been written in a way where Stefan realizes his own shortcomings in that his blood addiction is not as in control as he wanted. He could have said something in relation to that, 'I got to get this under control. I don't want to hurt her.' This is a case of show don't tell. There wouldn't be any need for Stefan to state the obvious. More dialogue like this would have made Stefan more likeable as a character overall, less of trying to make himself look better in comparison to Damon every time he opens his mouth, and more about him acknowledging his own issues. In short, making a character who can stand on his own two feet without having to drag someone down with him just so he can look better. As for the flash thing. he was revealed to be villain and staying that way. Stefan's is more addiction. He didnt turn in to a villain and it be revealed everything he did was for evil. Hell he became the ripper again to save his brother when he turned. The characters didnt react the same as it's a very different situation. Stefan was not lying to eat everyone. He was battling an addiction one he struggled with his whole after-life. It makes him a hero the fact he stated as others in the show did that rippers always have that urge. Yet stefan chose to feed off bunnies and was shown to be trying to good to do the right thing.You're altering how you brought up the issue before and changing it to something else entirely. You said a character that was introduced a certain way, would stay that way in the character's minds. And this is the excuse you use for why the characters default to Damon as bad and Stefan as good, despite actions that may reflect the opposite of that initial characterization. This is why I brought up the Flash example. And I'm sure you know the character I mean, but I'm trying not to spoil it outright lol. Yeah the character is now a villain and staying that way now of course. Though let's back up. This character was not introduced to them as the said villain at that point. He introduces himself as an entirely different person with a different persona and morality compass. Said character was on their side, helping them solve problems/issues and being a friend/mentor etc. When the reveal comes, the characters opinion of him change, they don't think, well he was introduced to us as a good hero, and then proceed to ignore his actions and go on like he didn't just wronged them. That's why I brought up the Flash example, to address what you said there about initially meeting someone as good, so the characters will default back to that even when actions show otherwise. They acted realistically to a change. That's where the comparison stops. And that was the point I was getting across. I wasn't saying anything about Stefan being the 'villain' like how that particular character was in the Flash. Stefan is an anomaly as a vampire, he's a ripper, and he's battling a human blood addiction. It's not about Stefan being evil or a villain, it's talking about an actual problem and flaw he has and reacting and addressing things from a logical manner of storytelling. Stefan should in no way be going around like he's righetous and better in comparison to Damon when Damon has full control over his blood lust and is not a vampire who could resort to ripping people apart. I expect the storytelling to be logical and realistic, it's an issue that should have been addressed by other characters to help him get over his issues. It's 'not about making him look bad or evil, he has a human blood addiction problem hello. Talk about it, it's an actual hazard and detriment that takes him most of the year of a human lifespan to get under control. Stefan went through his own methods to control it like not feeding from humans at all and eating bunnies instead, which means he knows it's a problem that he's trying to get over. Yet most of the time it gets glossed over like nothing and other times forgotten completely. Stefan being a ripper was such an interesting new development regarding his character when it was first introduced. It was something unique to Stefan which meant we would get to see him have his own separate struggles and concerns and ultimately him conquering some semblance of control over it, but it's a shame that the writers feel the need to look at Damon whenever it comes to Stefan and figure that this will make him look 'worst' in comparison to Damon so Stefan's not allowed to be his own character that can grow separate of Damon. The new characters yes. They should not be judging Damon as harsh BUT to be fair Damon says sarcastic stuff and threatens people a lot that it's obvious Damon has changed but does NOT want everyone thinking he's soft or weaker. Hell how often had he mocked Stefan for doing what was good and not just best for himself? which is also part of it as Damon is changing, I say changing as he does not always do the best thing if someone he cares for is not evolved. That's ok though as Damon likes been hated he likes been feared. So it's obvious he carries himself in a certain way.The new characters should not be judging Damon period if they don't have any idea who Damon even is. Damon likes being hated? Interesting you get that impression lol. Because this runs the risk of easily resorting to back and forth with blanket statements of, 'Yes he does.' 'No he doesn't.' I wouldn't mind addressing actual scenes and dialogue from the show in mind. Otherwise there's not much else I can say here. You've stated before that Damon's one of your favorite characters that you enjoy so it should be easy for us to get on the same plane. I just got to know the actual scenes you're getting these impressions from lol. As for how does Rayna know that one is pretty obvious. Klaus knew , Others knew. They are the brothers who battled the originals , silas , Kai and more. It's pretty much a given at this time that word has spread of them in the supernatural community. Plus she was a vampire huntress. Hunters tend to investigate their surroundings. I'd believe her knowing of them.I guess that'd be pretty obvious if that was ever actually addressed in the canon. This is pretty much speculation on your part as no character or community of the sort has ever mentioned anything like this. I don't know how far you are in season 7, but that's not how Rayna even comes to knowing about Stefan. With her ability she should only know about Stefan, and even then, she only knows Stefan to the point she marked him till now. As far as Damon goes, she should only know about him from what he gives her when she meets him. And considering that Rayna is pretty much a villain who's out to cause harm and kill Stefan as one of her marked targets. Is she supposed to be getting a warm greeting and treated nicely? Again not going to say too much since I'm not sure where you're at, but even what she's saying, doesn't even line up with what Damon even offered to willingly do. Don't tell me something and show otherwise. The problem i see is everyone saying this is bias against Stefan so his flaws are all they look at. Both brothers are awesome. But both are different. I mean look at the situation with Elena. They both agreed if she chose they'd leave town. When she seemed to pick Stefan , damon refused to leave. When she chose Damon stefan not only said he was hapy for his brother, he left like he said! On flip side we have Damon literally killing himself to save stefan. So Obviously he does good too.
Both brothers are awesome and different. Cool that you think that, the writing says otherwise. Bias is prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. The way the characters treat the brothers clearly favors one over the other. I expect the characters to react accordingly and adapt their mindset when they see otherwise. If Stefan does something crappy, don't gloss over it or excuse it by saying, 'LOL but you got to admit Damon's so much more worst.' Because of this Stefan is a one dimensional character who doesn't grow or change because he's never confronted on any of his issues or mistakes so he remains the same character. Whereas Damon is made to see the consequences of his actions. Again this would have made Stefan more likeable, but if they want to continue to call him a hero who is not capable of doing any wrong. Well, yeah, I'm going to pretty much call attention to when he does the opposite of that as it's not lining up with what's said about him. Otherwise I would have cared less if things were more even in the storytelling. Despite you mentioning how obvious it is that Damon does good too with your example, the characters certainly don't act like it or acknowledge this in the slightest. Nope Damon's still evil and selfish and doesn't care about his brother despite saving his brother and everyone numerous times and keeping Stefan's hero image like when he turned Bonnie's mom, even though Stefan was the one who was supposed to do it. Of course then Stefan never really says that so everyone just jumps on Damon. There are other instances where information like this gets left out all the time, most of it from Stefan's character himself. Not sure what else to call that but bias for Stefan's character. Oftentimes in your responses you make it seem like we're just saying this to be petty or something and that we don't have any canon examples from the show to back up this claim or anything. We'll gladly keep providing you more examples from the show.
Part of what makes Damon Damon is the fact he enjoys been the "bad" one. He might not be evil, he might even be good. But he acts in a way that people dont see him as changed also. Stefan may have a dark side but he does everything he can to hide that part of himself.
Ah so Stefan has a dark side that he hides. Wait, wait. But to hide it, wouldn't this mean that he has to lie and keep things from people so that they'd never find out about this dark side? Wouldn't this mean he has to pretend to be something he's not? A vampire who doesn't struggle with a human blood addiction or a ripper who could take decades to regain control of himself again. Or maybe he's not even a vampire. It'd just be easier to not tell them right away. Maybe he'll be so good at pretending to be human, that he'll never have to tell them! Damon on the other hand enjoys his vampirism, makes no excuses for who he is or his behavior and owns up to his mistakes and deals with the consequences. He doesn't drag anyone down to make himself look better in comparison. I wonder why Damon is the more popular character overall.
I still see it as people don't see Damon as fully changed yet as he was evil for so long that its hard to see. Does the write have Stefan bias? No I don't think so as she also makes Damon right more than any other. However She writes it so the characters feel like the ones we love. I mean it's not just Damon that get's crap. How many villians have shown up and targeted Stefan? Also stefan has killed lots. Damon has killed more people thsat they know though.
Villains showing up and attacking the main characters or who killed the most people is not what I'm talking about. In instances whenever there's an argument between Damon and Stefan, Stefan always comes out as the right party. Damon is the one who's wrong. Here's some examples. Despite Lily letting her husband abuse her children knowingly, choosing the heretics over her real family, being the reason that Elena is in her sleep induced coma in the first place, Damon is seen as the one in the wrong for not wanting to forgive his mother. Stefan wants revenge on Julian right away, Damon wants to wait it out awhile. Damon is seen as the idiot in this equation for not wanting to rush in on Julian and Stefan decides to go behind Damon's back and goes on with his plan anyways. This comes up again with Damon being relunctant to want to go after Julian and when they finally do, it leads to Julian overpowering them both and getting not only Damon trapped in the phoenix sword, but Stefan as well. The story will never frame this fallout as being the result of Stefan's actions. Blame never comes Stefan's way when it calls for it, but it always does when it comes to Damon. That is biased writing towards Stefan however way you look at it. You should really check out one of Julie Plec's interviews and how she talks about the brothers herself and see the obvious favoritism she has towards Stefan verses Damon if it was already made obvious through how she writes the characters in the show.
I mean : Vicki Donovan , Jeremy , Lexi , Zach Salvatore, Mason Lockwood and more. "oh they came back" Doesn't undo it. That's like saying Frieza was not that bad as they wished people back. The sad fact is personal deaths are always worse. Tell someone 100 died in another country or 1 person they know died and that 1 becomes a bigger issue to them. I think on the show nearly every main character has had someone they cared for killed by Damon. That only increases how hard it is for the main characters to forgive him.
Who used the statement of 'oh they came back' as a reason why suddenly those deaths are undone and should be ignored like it never happened? I never used that as a defense for Damon at all. I guess you know I watch Dragon Ball Z with you bringing those examples up or I would have been completely lost lol. But the Frieza example comes off a bit contrived honestly lol. I can't even imagine people using that as a legit defense for the character who in the context of that manga was created as an obvious villain that Goku and the others were set in stone to overcome and kill by the end of that story arc. And it doesn't make sense in the context of TVD either since neither any character or Damon ever brings that up as a defense for himself. And characters like Jeremy and Matt still carried that animosity for those deaths (he was never let off the hook for any controversial actions he did) so this feels like we're arguing a moot point here. In fact the opposite seems to be happening with Stefan, because he killed 100 random nobodies in a village, people want to pretend like it never happened or it isn't as bad as what Damon did. Stefan killing an entire village of people shouldn't be taken lightly regardless of what Damon did or didn't do. That's still something terrible in it's own right but it never gets talked about. Stefan's supposed to be the hero yet gets away with actions like that cause the writing itself never addresses it.
That's just how I see it. I get not all do but that's my take and like said as unpoular as it is i like nearly every character not just 2 or 3
Believe it or not we all didn't start watching the show with an automatic dislike for everyone but Damon. The writing has helped shape our opinions of characters and seeing these characters conveniently be used for the writers agenda like Caroline who was her own character the first two seasons but suddenly became all obsessed with Elena's love life and which brother she got with in season 3 and a complete Stefan cheerleader in season 4, who was suddenly her BFF and took sides over childhood friend Elena. That's my reason for why Caroline has fallen out of favor with me. I don't completely despite the character and enjoy scenes where she's not randomly inserted to be an obvious mouthpiece for the brothers. There are shows I watch, like the Flash, where I like and enjoy the entire cast of characters and the logical writing, storytelling and character development of said shows has a lot to do with it. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 9, 2016 14:47:57 GMT -5
I won't go through all of it as we are going round in a circle.
1) The Stefan flash thing as I mentioned early on stefan has a weakness BUT it's not hiding been evil. It's struggling with addition. That's the big thing with stefan. The flash villian (you say you wont name him but it's either seasons XD they did that too much I admit) he lied to hurt and kill. Stefan's lie doesn't come from a bad place. It comes from him trying to beat the addiction and not let it win. He's not lyning about who he really is. To him who he really is is stefan. The ripper is something else. He's not wrong addiction can be hard. I never blamed Damon for it but we all said season 1 Damon is not now damon so seaason 1 stefan talking himself down by reminding himself he's not the man who that season abused caroline , killed a lot and was pretty much the evil one. Makes sense. Why the hell wouldn't think bad about Damon in season 1. He was litrally forcing himself on Elena (she slapped him for it) and killed a gym teacher just to proove to stefan he could. He was evil lol
2) I only say Damon wants to be hated as how many times as he told people how selfish he is? I mean actually saying "I'm selfish" and things to that effect. It's a lot. Look at how he dresses and how fast he threatens villains. It may not be "100% hate" but he wants people to think the worse of him. In my opinion it's obvious why. When Stefan threatens people they tend to laugh at him. When Damon does it they think twice. I am not saying he is evil BUT I don't think he ready to get rid of his reputation of been 'The crazy, impulsive vampire" as Klaus called him. It makes sense as he's still changing and learning how to be him with out those techniques.
The scenes i get that from is all of them lol his quick wit + sarcasm can seem more arrogant for new people.
3) The Dragonall comment was I have seen people in the past say "Vikki was not bad he madew her vampire" or "Jeremy was not bad as he had a ring" I have seen that as exuses for Damon's killing not been bad. They were lol That ponint was "just cause they because they become a vampire or have a ring it doesnt make it ok" Hell even when he was "changed" he killed Alaric just to get him out the way a minute.
4) I know no one started hated on everyone BUT they are now so those characters can do no right.
5) unrelated but I'm glad this more a civilized discussion even if we disagree. That's good in my opinion.
6) Off Topic slightly and it may have been brought up later and I not seen it. Doesnt Damon have a way to save Elena + Bonnie now? Alarics babies can suck up magic. Just put them on the coffin to steal the magic from it LOL or at least when they are older and can control it. The magic sucking was strong enough to get rid of vampires , werewolves and hybrids. Surely it can wake up one girl lol.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jul 9, 2016 15:38:56 GMT -5
Since you're bringing up other shows, which I did use an example of the Flash, but you didn't quote that part of my post, so I'm going to repost what I said.
If a character comes on the scene and is acting in good standing with the characters around them, then naturally the characters will treat them good. If they suddenly do something uncalled for, then the characters will react/acknowledge that action and adjust their mindset. TVD does not do this in the slightest. The characters act the same regardless and it doesn't make sense. This would be like if characters on the Flash reacted to a character's sudden turn for the worst like nothing, because oh, they first met said character as good first right? Does that make sense to you?And I'll also bring up another point that was left out again regarding Stefan. JP has a clear bias of Stefan as the writing, like Vampirelust mentioned, Stefan always has characters magically forgiven him, all the girls magically show up on screen and fall for him or see him as special and these same girls will automatically see Damon as evil and hate him, despite just being a newly introduced character lol. Even his blood addition was brushed off like nothing, no one cares that he's a ripper, or puts everyone in danger for his revenge schemes of Klaus and Julian. Having characters put on a smile and shrug, 'Well, who cares if you put us in danger, we met you as the good guy.' comes off as dumb writing.
If neither brother is good or evil, and they've shown actions otherwise, then naturally the characters should grow out of that mindset, not continually default back to it. Really this show just has really awkward writing and dialogue. Why's it so obsessed with these titles of hero/good/bad brother anyways? Why does a character literally state, 'Ugh, no I can't do this. I'm the good brother.' like Stefan. Which he does in 1x19 for a refresher. Does anyone recite out loud how they're a 'good citizen' or something? It's just not natural dialogue and sounds like something that someone would say to CONVINCE themselves of the fact. If Stefan's supposed to be naturally good, why does he have to repeat it to himself like that as if it's something he needs to keep repeating to himself to play a part. Unless you interpret this scene differently? I'll again pose the question of why this show breaks immersion so much. With new characters literally coming in on the scene and already having a hate for Damon when they're just meeting the character. Wouldn't they be chill with a character they just met until given an actual reason to get wary/upset with them? Rayna's a character who comes on the scene and for some reason already knows everything about Damon and Stefan's relationship. How much sense does that honestly make? I'm repeating these points since it wasn't exactly addressed and I'm curious what you have to say about them since this isn't me making up stuff, it's how Stefan's character is literally written. First the "I don't hurt people. I don't do that. I'm the good brother." Is way out of context. He was reminding himself at the time as he was struggling with the blood. He didn't want to be Damon who at the time was at his Evilest and it was stefan trying to talk himself down. It's like he introduced himself as "hi I'm the good brother" He was stopping himself becoming what he hated. As for the flash thing. he was revealed to be villain and staying that way. Stefan's is more addiction. He didnt turn in to a villain and it be revealed everything he did was for evil. Hell he became the ripper again to save his brother when he turned. The characters didnt react the same as it's a very different situation. Stefan was not lying to eat everyone. He was battling an addiction one he struggled with his whole after-life. It makes him a hero the fact he stated as others in the show did that rippers always have that urge. Yet stefan chose to feed off bunnies and was shown to be trying to good to do the right thing. The new characters yes. They should not be judging Damon as harsh BUT to be fair Damon says sarcastic stuff and threatens people a lot that it's obvious Damon has changed but does NOT want everyone thinking he's soft or weaker. Hell how often had he mocked Stefan for doing what was good and not just best for himself? which is also part of it as Damon is changing, I say changing as he does not always do the best thing if someone he cares for is not evolved. That's ok though as Damon likes been hated he likes been feared. So it's obvious he carries himself in a certain way. As for how does Rayna know that one is pretty obvious. Klaus knew , Others knew. They are the brothers who battled the originals , silas , Kai and more. It's pretty much a given at this time that word has spread of them in the supernatural community. Plus she was a vampire huntress. Hunters tend to investigate their surroundings. I'd believe her knowing of them. The problem i see is everyone saying this is bias against Stefan so his flaws are all they look at. Both brothers are awesome. But both are different. I mean look at the situation with Elena. They both agreed if she chose they'd leave town. When she seemed to pick Stefan , damon refused to leave. When she chose Damon stefan not only said he was hapy for his brother, he left like he said! On flip side we have Damon literally killing himself to save stefan. So Obviously he does good too. Part of what makes Damon Damon is the fact he enjoys been the "bad" one. He might not be evil, he might even be good. But he acts in a way that people dont see him as changed also. Stefan may have a dark side but he does everything he can to hide that part of himself. I still see it as people don't see Damon as fully changed yet as he was evil for so long that its hard to see. Does the write have Stefan bias? No I don't think so as she also makes Damon right more than any other. However She writes it so the characters feel like the ones we love. I mean it's not just Damon that get's crap. How many villians have shown up and targeted Stefan? Also stefan has killed lots. Damon has killed more people thsat they know though. I mean : Vicki Donovan , Jeremy , Lexi , Zach Salvatore, Mason Lockwood and more. "oh they came back" Doesn't undo it. That's like saying Frieza was not that bad as they wished people back. The sad fact is personal deaths are always worse. Tell someone 100 died in another country or 1 person they know died and that 1 becomes a bigger issue to them. I think on the show nearly every main character has had someone they cared for killed by Damon. That only increases how hard it is for the main characters to forgive him. That's just how I see it. I get not all do but that's my take and like said as unpoular as it is i like nearly every character not just 2 or 3 Wow, do you go to some other SE website and get this stuff? This is NOT how it happened but it's exactly how I've seen SEs claim it did. So it sounds like SE talking points. Anywho...as I recall since Elena DIED right after that fateful decision to stick it out with Stefan and became a vampire, it was decided between the brothers that Damon should stay and help Elena with the transition because of Stefan's bloodlust problems. I'm not up for going back and actually finding that scene between them but that's how I recall it happened. I have no doubt that Damon would have left had that not happened to Elena, but as it was, he was needed there and he stayed despite how devastated he was by her decision. It was hardly a selfish decision on his part to stay. Selfish would have been leaving anyway, something Stefan is known for doing, not Damon. As for Stefan being happy for Damon when Elena chose him? Really? You're actually gonna say that? I believe the best his words ever got were, "Im not NOT happy for you," but for the most part he proceeded to lambaste the both of them every chance he got, even accusing Elena of sleeping with Damon as the reason they split up in the first place, which was a total LIE, but for Stefan lies come easy. Sometimes I think he forgets the truth after all his lies. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 9, 2016 19:00:33 GMT -5
First the "I don't hurt people. I don't do that. I'm the good brother." Is way out of context. He was reminding himself at the time as he was struggling with the blood. He didn't want to be Damon who at the time was at his Evilest and it was stefan trying to talk himself down. It's like he introduced himself as "hi I'm the good brother" He was stopping himself becoming what he hated. As for the flash thing. he was revealed to be villain and staying that way. Stefan's is more addiction. He didnt turn in to a villain and it be revealed everything he did was for evil. Hell he became the ripper again to save his brother when he turned. The characters didnt react the same as it's a very different situation. Stefan was not lying to eat everyone. He was battling an addiction one he struggled with his whole after-life. It makes him a hero the fact he stated as others in the show did that rippers always have that urge. Yet stefan chose to feed off bunnies and was shown to be trying to good to do the right thing. The new characters yes. They should not be judging Damon as harsh BUT to be fair Damon says sarcastic stuff and threatens people a lot that it's obvious Damon has changed but does NOT want everyone thinking he's soft or weaker. Hell how often had he mocked Stefan for doing what was good and not just best for himself? which is also part of it as Damon is changing, I say changing as he does not always do the best thing if someone he cares for is not evolved. That's ok though as Damon likes been hated he likes been feared. So it's obvious he carries himself in a certain way. As for how does Rayna know that one is pretty obvious. Klaus knew , Others knew. They are the brothers who battled the originals , silas , Kai and more. It's pretty much a given at this time that word has spread of them in the supernatural community. Plus she was a vampire huntress. Hunters tend to investigate their surroundings. I'd believe her knowing of them. The problem i see is everyone saying this is bias against Stefan so his flaws are all they look at. Both brothers are awesome. But both are different. I mean look at the situation with Elena. They both agreed if she chose they'd leave town. When she seemed to pick Stefan , damon refused to leave. When she chose Damon stefan not only said he was hapy for his brother, he left like he said! On flip side we have Damon literally killing himself to save stefan. So Obviously he does good too. Part of what makes Damon Damon is the fact he enjoys been the "bad" one. He might not be evil, he might even be good. But he acts in a way that people dont see him as changed also. Stefan may have a dark side but he does everything he can to hide that part of himself. I still see it as people don't see Damon as fully changed yet as he was evil for so long that its hard to see. Does the write have Stefan bias? No I don't think so as she also makes Damon right more than any other. However She writes it so the characters feel like the ones we love. I mean it's not just Damon that get's crap. How many villians have shown up and targeted Stefan? Also stefan has killed lots. Damon has killed more people thsat they know though. I mean : Vicki Donovan , Jeremy , Lexi , Zach Salvatore, Mason Lockwood and more. "oh they came back" Doesn't undo it. That's like saying Frieza was not that bad as they wished people back. The sad fact is personal deaths are always worse. Tell someone 100 died in another country or 1 person they know died and that 1 becomes a bigger issue to them. I think on the show nearly every main character has had someone they cared for killed by Damon. That only increases how hard it is for the main characters to forgive him. That's just how I see it. I get not all do but that's my take and like said as unpoular as it is i like nearly every character not just 2 or 3 Wow, do you go to some other SE website and get this stuff? This is NOT how it happened but it's exactly how I've seen SEs claim it did. So it sounds like SE talking points. Anywho...as I recall since Elena DIED right after that fateful decision to stick it out with Stefan and became a vampire, it was decided between the brothers that Damon should stay and help Elena with the transition because of Stefan's bloodlust problems. I'm not up for going back and actually finding that scene between them but that's how I recall it happened. I have no doubt that Damon would have left had that not happened to Elena, but as it was, he was needed there and he stayed despite how devastated he was by her decision. It was hardly a selfish decision on his part to stay. Selfish would have been leaving anyway, something Stefan is known for doing, not Damon. As for Stefan being happy for Damon when Elena chose him? Really? You're actually gonna say that? I believe the best his words ever got were, "Im not NOT happy for you," but for the most part he proceeded to lambaste the both of them every chance he got, even accusing Elena of sleeping with Damon as the reason they split up in the first place, which was a total LIE, but for Stefan lies come easy. Sometimes I think he forgets the truth after all his lies. Really? I mention something good Damon did but becausei mentioned stefan it HAD to come from SE sites when earlier i stated this is only one i visit? ....... strange how that works. I honestly believe based on damons past actions up to then he wouldn't haven't left. he ALWAYS chooses Elena up to that point in most cases and each time he tries to stay away he can't. The "I'm not not happy for you" was a sweet nice thing yet it still doesn't count as stefan been nice? why not? he didn't have to say anything. Damon even even thanks him. it was great brothers moment. Damon going to the otherside to save stefan was heroic as **** and another great brothers momet. I suppose stefan ruining his own life to save damon by klause is bad too as its stefan. I LOVE seeing the brothers get along. They both do good at times and personally i love the little moments like the "Not not happy" or the flashback when damon said "Did you ever think i just need my brother" it may not be a ship or something cool but i love them been brotherly lol p.s sorry for mistakes in text im typing on difrent device. Also sorry if it seems hostile it just annoyed me that the SE stuff starts been thrown around just cause i saw something different. it wasnt even about a ship |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2016 19:46:20 GMT -5
Wow, do you go to some other SE website and get this stuff? This is NOT how it happened but it's exactly how I've seen SEs claim it did. So it sounds like SE talking points. Anywho...as I recall since Elena DIED right after that fateful decision to stick it out with Stefan and became a vampire, it was decided between the brothers that Damon should stay and help Elena with the transition because of Stefan's bloodlust problems. I'm not up for going back and actually finding that scene between them but that's how I recall it happened. I have no doubt that Damon would have left had that not happened to Elena, but as it was, he was needed there and he stayed despite how devastated he was by her decision. It was hardly a selfish decision on his part to stay. Selfish would have been leaving anyway, something Stefan is known for doing, not Damon. As for Stefan being happy for Damon when Elena chose him? Really? You're actually gonna say that? I believe the best his words ever got were, "Im not NOT happy for you," but for the most part he proceeded to lambaste the both of them every chance he got, even accusing Elena of sleeping with Damon as the reason they split up in the first place, which was a total LIE, but for Stefan lies come easy. Sometimes I think he forgets the truth after all his lies. I honestly believe based on damons past actions up to then he wouldn't haven't left. he ALWAYS chooses Elena up to that point in most cases and each time he tries to stay away he can't. The "I'm not not happy for you" was a sweet nice thing yet it still doesn't count as stefan been nice? why not? he didn't have to say anything. Damon even even thanks him. it was great brothers moment. Damon going to the otherside to save stefan was heroic as **** and another great brothers momet. I suppose stefan ruining his own life to save damon by klause is bad too as its stefan. I LOVE seeing the brothers get along. They both do good at times and personally i love the little moments like the "Not not happy" or the flashback when damon said "Did you ever think i just need my brother" it may not be a ship or something cool but i love them been brotherly lol
p.s sorry for mistakes in text im typing on difrent device. Also sorry if it seems hostile it just annoyed me that the SE stuff starts been thrown around just cause i saw something different. it wasnt even about a ship
Just to address the remarks about the SE. Most of us here have been on forums discussing this show since season 1. Before it got shut down, we were all on the official CW forums before moving to this one and we've pretty much seen every tried and true argument that SE or Stefan fans bring up to shut down Damon and DE and debated them for years. The typical ones like Damon does not give a crap about Stefan or stole Elena from him etc. Not that this means that you're being criticized for such, but we've seen statements like that reminiscent of those fans who always interpreted those scenes with Damon always being the selfish one but Stefan as the best, selfless brother who could do no wrong. Back on the CW every week there would be a new thread bashing Damon or Delena it got really tiring defending the same accusations. It'd be one thing if some of these fans could actually admit to when Stefan made faults or mistakes, but they always excused everything Stefan did while always criticizing everything Damon did. So some of us have come a bit tired with the same song and dance no matter how much we've used the show as actual evidence. It feels like it's been a long while since we've seen some of these 'old arguments' being brought to the forefront again. Though debates like this have been better on this forum, it's more civil here compared to how nasty fans got back on the CW boards. Though once again the writing makes it all too easy to see Damon as the bad and selfish one in comparison to Stefan. Even when Damon is doing an act that's selfless, they'll have Damon sit there and recite how he's 'angry, selfish, my true self is dark etc' like he's reading from a script. Damon's the only character that gets those repetitive monologues where he's literally made to sit there and list his faults like that lol. Seven seasons in, I find myself laughing at some of the more contrived dialogue in this show lately. |
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