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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 9, 2016 21:33:09 GMT -5
Really? I mention something good Damon did but becausei mentioned stefan it HAD to come from SE sites when earlier i stated this is only one i visit? ....... strange how that works.I honestly believe based on damons past actions up to then he wouldn't haven't left. he ALWAYS chooses Elena up to that point in most cases and each time he tries to stay away he can't. The "I'm not not happy for you" was a sweet nice thing yet it still doesn't count as stefan been nice? why not? he didn't have to say anything. Damon even even thanks him. it was great brothers moment. Damon going to the otherside to save stefan was heroic as **** and another great brothers momet. I suppose stefan ruining his own life to save damon by klause is bad too as its stefan. I LOVE seeing the brothers get along. They both do good at times and personally i love the little moments like the "Not not happy" or the flashback when damon said "Did you ever think i just need my brother" it may not be a ship or something cool but i love them been brotherly lol
p.s sorry for mistakes in text im typing on difrent device. Also sorry if it seems hostile it just annoyed me that the SE stuff starts been thrown around just cause i saw something different. it wasnt even about a ship
Just to address the remarks about the SE. Most of us here have been on forums discussing this show since season 1. Before it got shut down, we were all on the official CW forums before moving to this one and we've pretty much seen every tried and true argument that SE or Stefan fans bring up to shut down Damon and DE and debated them for years. The typical ones like Damon does not give a crap about Stefan or stole Elena from him etc. Not that this means that you're being criticized for such, but we've seen statements like that reminiscent of those fans who always interpreted those scenes with Damon always being the selfish one but Stefan as the best, selfless brother who could do no wrong. Back on the CW every week there would be a new thread bashing Damon or Delena it got really tiring defending the same accusations. It'd be one thing if some of these fans could actually admit to when Stefan made faults or mistakes, but they always excused everything Stefan did while always criticizing everything Damon did. So some of us have come a bit tired with the same song and dance no matter how much we've used the show as actual evidence. It feels like it's been a long while since we've seen some of these 'old arguments' being brought to the forefront again. Though debates like this have been better on this forum, it's more civil here compared to how nasty fans got back on the CW boards. Though once again the writing makes it all too easy to see Damon as the bad and selfish one in comparison to Stefan. Even when Damon is doing an act that's selfless, they'll have Damon sit there and recite how he's 'angry, selfish, my true self is dark etc' like he's reading from a script. Damon's the only character that gets those repetitive monologues where he's literally made to sit there and list his faults like that lol. Seven seasons in, I find myself laughing at some of the more contrived dialogue in this show lately. I can understand that. I'm weird i take the sides dependingon situation.Example i'm on the damon stole his brothers girl side, not because Elena is an object but that was his brothers girlfriend that damon kissed while they were together at least twice and flirted with her. I wanted Damon to get her but at the same time i was like "Dude you can't do that to your brother" if my brother tried that i'd kill him lol. Yet at the same time i took Damon's on sire bond as Stefan was graspingat straws and acted like a dick over it lol I was like "you told elena you knew she had feelings. back off it's not the sire bond" then was like "damn it you made tyler the voice of reason" so it depends on situation plus just cause i agree does not mean i support the ship im agreeing with lol im agreeing with the person i feel is right in the situation. Though Elana is at fault too. she strug them both along too much. Plus when she thinks Damon likes her she pounces on stefan up against the car in front of damon. BITCH lol i hate that scene. Stefan once fed a man his wife! Damon once tortured Tyler's uncle. but elena doing that on car wa just cruel lol I love damons recycling of his "im selfish" speech. I view it as i mentioned as him wanting others to believe it as i think his see good expect line is still true. Hes changed but he doesn't want everyone thinking he has lol we all have defence mechanisms , i am sarcastic as hell in rl for example. Damon's is to convince people hes the big bad even if hes not. Plus come on the "im selfish" "shut up you iddiot and kiss me" (my wiiu abridgement on the scene were Elena chose him lol) was fantasic hell that whole ending was as you had elena choose damon CHEER "im not not happy for you" AWWWWW "i got the girl" "dont screw it up" AWWWWW then tease for next season WTF JUST HAPPENED in such a small burst lol i have issues with 4 but that was PERFECTLY done IMO. so yeah i'm weird as the situation depends on who i side with and i'd say it's split evanly lol |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jul 10, 2016 8:48:39 GMT -5
Wow, do you go to some other SE website and get this stuff? This is NOT how it happened but it's exactly how I've seen SEs claim it did. So it sounds like SE talking points. Anywho...as I recall since Elena DIED right after that fateful decision to stick it out with Stefan and became a vampire, it was decided between the brothers that Damon should stay and help Elena with the transition because of Stefan's bloodlust problems. I'm not up for going back and actually finding that scene between them but that's how I recall it happened. I have no doubt that Damon would have left had that not happened to Elena, but as it was, he was needed there and he stayed despite how devastated he was by her decision. It was hardly a selfish decision on his part to stay. Selfish would have been leaving anyway, something Stefan is known for doing, not Damon. As for Stefan being happy for Damon when Elena chose him? Really? You're actually gonna say that? I believe the best his words ever got were, "Im not NOT happy for you," but for the most part he proceeded to lambaste the both of them every chance he got, even accusing Elena of sleeping with Damon as the reason they split up in the first place, which was a total LIE, but for Stefan lies come easy. Sometimes I think he forgets the truth after all his lies. Really? I mention something good Damon did but becausei mentioned stefan it HAD to come from SE sites when earlier i stated this is only one i visit? ....... strange how that works. I honestly believe based on damons past actions up to then he wouldn't haven't left. he ALWAYS chooses Elena up to that point in most cases and each time he tries to stay away he can't. The "I'm not not happy for you" was a sweet nice thing yet it still doesn't count as stefan been nice? why not? he didn't have to say anything. Damon even even thanks him. it was great brothers moment. Damon going to the otherside to save stefan was heroic as **** and another great brothers momet. I suppose stefan ruining his own life to save damon by klause is bad too as its stefan. I LOVE seeing the brothers get along. They both do good at times and personally i love the little moments like the "Not not happy" or the flashback when damon said "Did you ever think i just need my brother" it may not be a ship or something cool but i love them been brotherly lol p.s sorry for mistakes in text im typing on difrent device. Also sorry if it seems hostile it just annoyed me that the SE stuff starts been thrown around just cause i saw something different. it wasnt even about a ship I wasn't accusing or anything, it just sounded exactly like it so that's why I asked and by the way, you can go wherever you want, just saying. I'm not gonna get all bent or something if you spend more time elsewhere talking about TVD but of course I want you to do it here and I'm glad you only come here and think we are decent enough here to have a discussion without getting nasty. I think we are, too! We're a good bunch, including you. I get a lot of info off Twitter and Tumblr as well and yes, I even read what opposing people write and why they oppose it and what you said sounded just like things I've read from SEs. That's why I asked. Now on to your response. By the way I actually find this interesting, to discuss this with you and see how you see things and why so please don't feel attacked just because the people responding feel differently. We still love you even if you are WRONG....bahaha Stefan has occasionally been decent to Damon and in those times I think maybe he's coming around, maybe this is the turning point, maybe he's finally getting it, but nope, the next week he's back to his bad Damon speeches and for me that's frustrating but basically that's what we're talking about here is how frustrating it is that so many of them still hates Damon after all this time and after all the good things he has done. Doesn't that earn him some respect? For me it's OK if they don't love him to death, but they should see by now that he isn't the evil guy that STEFAN told them he was. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 10, 2016 9:07:28 GMT -5
I think he has come around mostly. I mean look at S1 he kept telling Elena not to go near him as he couldn't be trusted. S2 he asked Damon to look after her when he was tomb proving he trusted him a little more even if he had doubts and by the end gave him self over to klaus as damon was worth saving , Season 3 he was seeing Damon more as an equal at times , season 4 he was happy for damon with elena and felt he could leave , season 5 he seeing more the damon he always wanted , season 6 he was pissed at Elena for forgetting him and took his death hard. Season 7 He's seeing if Damon can be good with out Elena
Is Stefan always nice to him? no but that's because Damon still makes mistakes and I feel those mistakes make stefan worry Damon will fall back into his old ways. I made the argument a while ago the best relationship IMO on the show is Stefan / Damon. It's complex , it's never all good or all positive. They'd die for each for other yet they still want to kill each other at time. Thats what brothers do lol Damon + Elena will be reunited by season 8 end. However I hope the brothers fully bond by then and are finally back to how they were as humans.
lol this something I know very few want as most fans now are pro one brother Anti- the other. But i'm pro both and want both connected and accepting.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2016 15:46:20 GMT -5
Just to address the remarks about the SE. Most of us here have been on forums discussing this show since season 1. Before it got shut down, we were all on the official CW forums before moving to this one and we've pretty much seen every tried and true argument that SE or Stefan fans bring up to shut down Damon and DE and debated them for years. The typical ones like Damon does not give a crap about Stefan or stole Elena from him etc. Not that this means that you're being criticized for such, but we've seen statements like that reminiscent of those fans who always interpreted those scenes with Damon always being the selfish one but Stefan as the best, selfless brother who could do no wrong. Back on the CW every week there would be a new thread bashing Damon or Delena it got really tiring defending the same accusations. It'd be one thing if some of these fans could actually admit to when Stefan made faults or mistakes, but they always excused everything Stefan did while always criticizing everything Damon did. So some of us have come a bit tired with the same song and dance no matter how much we've used the show as actual evidence. It feels like it's been a long while since we've seen some of these 'old arguments' being brought to the forefront again. Though debates like this have been better on this forum, it's more civil here compared to how nasty fans got back on the CW boards. Though once again the writing makes it all too easy to see Damon as the bad and selfish one in comparison to Stefan. Even when Damon is doing an act that's selfless, they'll have Damon sit there and recite how he's 'angry, selfish, my true self is dark etc' like he's reading from a script. Damon's the only character that gets those repetitive monologues where he's literally made to sit there and list his faults like that lol. Seven seasons in, I find myself laughing at some of the more contrived dialogue in this show lately. I can understand that. I'm weird i take the sides dependingon situation.Example i'm on the damon stole his brothers girl side, not because Elena is an object but that was his brothers girlfriend that damon kissed while they were together at least twice and flirted with her. I wanted Damon to get her but at the same time i was like "Dude you can't do that to your brother" if my brother tried that i'd kill him lol. Yet at the same time i took Damon's on sire bond as Stefan was graspingat straws and acted like a dick over it lol I was like "you told elena you knew she had feelings. back off it's not the sire bond" then was like "damn it you made tyler the voice of reason" so it depends on situation plus just cause i agree does not mean i support the ship im agreeing with lol im agreeing with the person i feel is right in the situation. Though Elana is at fault too. she strug them both along too much. Plus when she thinks Damon likes her she pounces on stefan up against the car in front of damon. BITCH lol i hate that scene. Stefan once fed a man his wife! Damon once tortured Tyler's uncle. but elena doing that on car wa just cruel lol I love damons recycling of his "im selfish" speech. I view it as i mentioned as him wanting others to believe it as i think his see good expect line is still true. Hes changed but he doesn't want everyone thinking he has lol we all have defence mechanisms , i am sarcastic as hell in rl for example. Damon's is to convince people hes the big bad even if hes not. Plus come on the "im selfish" "shut up you iddiot and kiss me" (my wiiu abridgement on the scene were Elena chose him lol) was fantasic hell that whole ending was as you had elena choose damon CHEER "im not not happy for you" AWWWWW "i got the girl" "dont screw it up" AWWWWW then tease for next season WTF JUST HAPPENED in such a small burst lol i have issues with 4 but that was PERFECTLY done IMO. so yeah i'm weird as the situation depends on who i side with and i'd say it's split evanly lol I know you mentioned that you didn't mean it in the way of Elena being an object, though I don't see any way around not implying that when someone brings up the statement regarding Damon 'stole' Elena from Stefan. It completely takes away Elena's own agency and feelings out of the equation and only factors in the parties of Stefan and Damon. For Damon to have stolen Elena from Stefan, it would mean that Elena went behind Stefan's back and up and left him in the midst of a committed relationship without any sense of warning and went to be with Damon all of a sudden which was NOT the case at all. Sometimes the whole triangle aspect gets exaggerated to the extremes. People will say that Elena went back and forth between the two brothers, being romantic and flirty with both at the same time. Some will act like Elena talking with Stefan in one scene, and then Damon in another scene is her flirting or stringing the brothers along as if a girl is not allowed to talk to any other guy but her boyfriend. I know in this case it's just really more of you not remembering how scenes played out. You're just mentioning the bare bones of two kisses happened, he flirted etc. and none of the dialogue or context. You may not be a fan of Elena's character, but one of her biggest traits was her loyalty, and that loyalty was what made her choose Stefan once again in 3x22. She was always fully committed to Stefan until they mutually broke up in 4x06. In fact Stefan was the one who initiated it. (I goofed the SE break up is the second video though I guess it's obvious from the thumbnails lol). Do you remember what happened the first time after Damon and (Katherine who he thought was Elena at the time) kissed? The next time they talk was not all butterflies and Elena given Damon flirty eyes and Elena being charmed by him. This scene in 2x08 doesn't even make sense in the context that some fans claim that Damon was constantly flirting with Elena and trying to steal her away. He would not be saying he didn't deserve her but his brother did, if his goal was to steal her away. And if he wanted to, since her had her necklace of vervain, he could have easily use his compulsion to 'steal' her away in that manner, that would have been rather convenient don't you think? Again this is just preconceived notions and projections more than actual canon truths. And here's Damon's 'reaction' to Elena and Stefan breaking up. If his intention was to 'steal' Elena all along, why isn't he gloating or rubbing it in Stefan's face or making some offhand remark about how she's free or he's going to now go chat with her? In fact Damon barely acknowledges the break up and goes on about the plot and then even offers to brother bonding time. It's Stefan who comes out and accuses Damon of this being the best day of his life. Like what? Where'd that even come from? But it's just Stefan assuming the worst of Damon as always, nothing new here. Of course I'm just picking raindrops out of an ocean. Remember Delena didn't just happen overnight, it was several seasons of build up. It involved the actions and feelings of all parties. Elena wouldn't have broken up with Stefan if he was a perfect boyfriend and she still held strong feelings for him. That doesn't make sense. And the argument that Damon stole Elena, that was commonly said by SE fans who were in denial and angry that their ship broke up and didn't want to acknowledge all the signs that were pointing to DE. It's more of a projection onto the characters more than anything and this fandom does that a lot, they make up tons of assumptions about the characters despite seeing otherwise on the show. I really hope you do watch these few videos I put as it really does serve to help you remember how things actually did play out more accurately than trying to recall from memory and assume the wrong thing. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 10, 2016 17:40:43 GMT -5
Okay before I go with most part I'll address the "this being the best day of his life." He just broke up with his girlfriend because she had feelings for Damon. He's talking to Damon who knows has feelings too. Yeah he's angry and the part where Damon asked for drink. It felt insincere so year he took it out on damon. Damon didn't gloat as a) Stefan would hit him and b) Why would he at that point? to rub it in his brothers face? no but stefans response you can understand. Better a snarky comment than to hit him or something. It's understandable. Now the main part. I say steal as I can't stress this enough IT WAS HIS BROTHER'S GIRLFRIEND. Like I said out the two I was proDelena BUT I also understand how stefan would feel and how Elena + Damon both acted wrong. Why is this? Let's look shall we. He was trying to kiss her and manipulate her for no other reason than hurting Stefan. When you start out with bad intentions the motive can get blurry. Is feeling DID become real before start freaking out but they did not steal real. Hell he even gloats about it I mean come on look at this : He is clearly flirting with her with no real feelings. That will give her ideas and as I mentiond she's someone else's girlfriend. Now as I said his feelings grew yes but there are rules when it comes to stuff like this. Like even this While a beautiful scene and here we see his feelings are real. It's still uncomfortable to me. He kisses his brother's girlfriend and says he loves her but it's ok because he wipes her mind? So I can tell anyone I want I love them and kiss them as long as I remember to drug them so they forget? NO. I know he didn't "drug" her but compulsion is still altering her mind without her permission which is bad. The looks he gave her when the danced , hung out ect... Was still uncalled for. Fans make out Elena and stefan broke up she then eventually ran to Damon and before hand nothing underhanded happened. If anyone here is female go ahead tell your husband his brother flirted with you , kissed you and danced with you. I bet you they'd be PISSED. That's the issue. I'm saying it was dirty and underhanded. Damon is unquestionably better for her than Stefan and I don't need to quote the rose speech as to why lol they just were. However it's still someone his brother was in love with and dating than he kept going after her. Also remember he didnt just do it in secret. There is multiple ways to view this but I can easily see it as "We are going to save my brother oh but when we do lets rip his world apart by making sure you think im hot" However I'm glad damon wanted to save stefan but the "remember the things you felt" is still a bad thing to someone let alone your own family so they are not without fault. They knew she was dating stefan yet they still shared little moments togther which IMO is a selfish thing to do and is a hurtful thing to do to someone. Also when I mentioned Elena stringing them both along Her words not mine  she admits to it! She admits she doesnt't want to choose. (Isn't that one of the reasons she says Katherine was a villain?) and the "I've lost so many people" is a ****ing sick line IMO. You lost people because they DIED! You leave one to go to the other? oh no they will never talk to you again ...... by the way tell matt i say hi. She is the worst! but that one scene IMO summons up the Elena. She is too selfish to choose as it may be uncomfortable for her. THEY ARE BROTHERS! STOP HURTING THEIR RELATIONSHIP. You want Damon TELL stefan. Lastly what the hell is this Damon forces himself on his brothers girlfriend against her will. Also yes we know killing Jeremy was wrong I could go in to the million reasons why it was dumb to have that scene as Elena is now in love with someone who killed her brother? I could never do that with someone who killed my brother BUT the badly inserted kill for the sake of it is not important to the discussion (though doing this cause a girl said no puts stefans one sarcastic comment to damon after the break up in perspective huh?) . Forces himself on his Brothers girlfriend is BAD. and that was the point. Does Damon love Elena? 100% Yes Are they an awesome ship? Yes But you can not act like they did nothing wrong. Jerry Springer is full of people who do this type of thing ....... (note to self send JP a campaign to have the brothers go on Jerry springer lol ) .......but morally , ethically it's wrong. If you start having feelings for a brothers GF you never do anything about it. In fact you avoid her as much you can and you go out of your way to not act on it. I know the show is built on premise of triangle but we are talking in universe. It's not all black and white. There's a lot of grey here like Delena was not all puppies and rainbows it started because of something underhanded. It doesn't matter, it doesnt change how they feel. I am just saying people are acting like Stefan is all to blame and deserves it. I mean look above. He's hurt, he's angry and is that ok? Nooooo cause when stefan is hurt or angry it's "Stefan assuming the worst of Damon as always, nothing new here. " Not the fact HES TALKING TO PERSON HIM AND HIS GIRLFRIEND BROKE UP OVER. I swear stefan could die to save damon and people would be like "There goes stefan. Messing up the carpet with his blood so damon will have to clean it up! Jerk!" That is the point of all this post. Like i said earlier I look at it in a more "if this was real" mind. I ddont know I'm just more invested in all the characters or not but people hate on stefan for no reason and act like Damon & Elena getting together was not morally questionable. That's my stance. Glad they got together but understand parts of it were morally wrong. |
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Post by vampirelust on Jul 10, 2016 19:30:41 GMT -5
Hi Chriz, your post is well written and mentions some valid points but kinda misses the point a bit too and here is why I think that. The examples you posted in S1 are valid, Damon was actively trying to flirt with Elena and steal her maybe?? He did kiss who he thought was Elena in 1x22 as well knowing that she was Stefans's girl so I accept that POV. However, we know from 2x01 in the clip you posted that Damon was convinced that there was something going on between them..................and now we know that he wasn't wrong and Elena was lying to herself, him and Stefan. Elena shutting him down just tore him to shreds and we all know how the rest plays out because Damon was who Damon was back then. The key thing for me in all this debate is context, meaning that there is a significant backstory to all this involving a woman wearing the same face that both brothers fell for in 1864....................and the fact that this scenario had pretty much played out before when Stefan went after Katherine knowing she was already involved with Damon and that Damon had feelings for her. This is not real life and the triangle is rooted in the supernatural and should be viewed as such IMO. It is the the whole bedrock of the Salvatore rift that goes back 150 years. Anyway, eventually Damon does throw in the towel and makes the decision to put aside his feelings for Elena for the sake of his brother, 2x08. Fundamentally on some level Damon knows that Elena has feelings for him, he is intuitive like that and at this point in his mind he knew that if he put his mind to it he could probably win her heart otherwise why would he take himself out of the race? It's like he said, he didn't deserve her. He even alludes to this with his conversation with Andie in the bath tub: Damon "I'm in love with a woman I could never have" Andie " I knew it, I sure know how to pick em. Why can't you have her? She's with another man I assume?" Damon "Yeah! but that's not the point, the point is i'm in love with her and it's driving me crazy" Damon recognises that he isn't in control of himself or who he is to be with Elena (he doesn't deserve her). It's about him, not Elena and Stefan. Damon is not stupid, and neither was Stefan, they both recognised "something" was going on hence Stefan's jealousy act. Heres the thing and what it all comes down to IMO, Damon has ALWAYS watched Stefan and reacted to his actions and emotions. He understands Stefan and what makes him tick therefore circling back to the original topic of conversation about the writing for Stefan V Damon. Damon has always been written to GET Stefan and react realistically and honestly to Stefans actions and grow, examples ; Damon knew that Stefan was drinking human blood and lying about it in 1x18 and 1x19. Damon knew that Stefan was genuinely sorry when he apologised in 2x08 hence why he took the decision to back off from Elena, especially since at that time Damon felt like he couldn't be what Elena needed him to be, but Stefan could. Damon knew in 3x01 who the victims belonged too. Damon knew that Stefan was martyring himself to protect him and Elena. Damon knew exactly when Stefan had resumed the "bunny diet" 3x15 and so turned Abby. Damon knew something was up in 4x05 when Stefan was out "buying bossy pants", and wasn't working with the team. Damon knew something was wrong with Stefan in 4x07 before Stefan told him about the break up. Damon was mindful of keeping Stefan's hurt to a minimum when he got with Elena. Damon was fully aware of Stefan's secret dream to become human again....before Stefan told Elena. Damon knew Stefan was covering something up WRT Enzo, and he knew it had nothing to do with a Stelena revival..contrary to Carolines beliefs. Damon knew exactly what to prompt Mama Salvatore to say to Stefan to get him to flip his humanity back on. These are but a few examples of how Damon has been written to know and understand Stefan and ultimately learn about him and change and grow with those revelations that emerge, but Stefan just hasn't unfortunately. This is a Defan scene from 7x11. Damon has returned home believing that he has just burned the loved of his life to death. Stefan does not know this piece of information and this is what he had to say to Damon: Now, this scene to me is framed as Stefan being a benevolent brother willing to forgive the terrible things Damon had done since returning from the stone, however before he says that he does get to tell Damon that he is reckless, manipulative and Selfish?  this is also after telling Damon all about the fact that in order to free himself from the phoenix stone he had to let Damon die. Way to go Stefan!!!! Stefan can clearly see something is very wrong with Damon, he know Damon has been in the phoenix stone and all that entails and that he has been out less that 24 hrs and is probably still reeling from all that yet his first words to Damon are not comforting or supportive at all. It was the same when Damon confesses that he had killed Elena. Nada, even though he knows what he knows. This is the point, Stefan should know BETTER by now, this is S7. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2016 21:07:52 GMT -5
Chriz, thanks for putting some scene references. It certainly makes it easier to see and pinpoint where your point of view/impressions stem from compared to outright making a broad statement/generalization and having to play a guessing game of whether you mean these statements currently or talking about something that took place back in earlier seasons. Even then it's like Vampirelust stated, there's context to Damon's intentions in 1x03 so that POV is a given, keep in mind we ship Delena but we're realistic and we know this ship has its up and downs and dark moments, we don't squeal cute over every scene and we do acknowledge our ships flaws. Yet we also look at the deeper meaning of things and take into account context, actions, background and history with the brothers that far proceeds Elena. Though I won't let this get too lengthy as Vampirelust managed to write out a great post with a well put together explanation and examples that sounds better than what I could have written lol.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jul 10, 2016 21:37:27 GMT -5
I didn't want to quote your quote Chriz cause it was so long but I noticed that you mostly are quoting early Damon, season one Damon into just the beginning of season two and all of us know that Damon was not in a good place during that time. Nobody here is trying to say that Damon at the beginning of the series was not a thorn in Stefan's side but the turn away from that came pretty quickly. Yes, originally Damon wanted to screw with Stefan, try to mess his life us, threatened to steal his girl. Heck he even tried to scare Elena in the first few episodes, but after a short time that all changed, his motives changed, his feelings changed and we began the long journey that Damon found himself on, to caring about other people again. I say, again, because he didn't start out that way in 1864, did he?
So if your evidence comes from that early in the series as to why the gang should still treat him like junk, it's pretty flawed I'd say. Years have passed. Years in which Damon has saved all their butts time and again. At the very least he deserves their cautious respect. What he doesn't deserve is to be called a cockroach, badmouthed, told off for no reason and generally mistreated on a regular basis with all the things he has done to show that he is part of the team. I'd actually say he leads the team because half of them couldn't put two and two together if their life depended on it and would be dead several times over, but who do they call when they need a plan? That's right, Damon. So how in the heck is it that they have so little respect for him after he's proven himself so many times now? You can't go back to the beginning of the series and ignore the progression of his character. If they hate him so much why rely on him like they do? It just doesn't make any sense in any way at all anymore.
As for Elena and Stefan's breakup. It was always Elena's choice. She wasn't a prize to win or steal from each other. Damon was in love with her but if you watched the series as carefully as I did, you'd have seen what a struggle that was for him. He was constantly having to protect her, guard her, be there for her, comfort her, etc. There was no way he could have avoided her like you mentioned. A few times he tried, but he was always dragged back in to things since her life was always in danger.
So, there's a whole lot more to it than Damon hanging around to try to steal Stefan's girl. He was right that she had feelings for him. She admitted to Alaric that her attraction started as far back as the Miss Mystic Falls dance, or at least that is when she realized it. So it was going on a loooong time before they ever got together. They both did their damn best NOT to act on it, but you know that's near impossible in real life and it was just as impossible in this case as well.
I just don't think it's anywhere near as simple as you want to make it out to be and I don't think Damon was actively trying to 'steal' Elena except right in the very beginning of the series and at that time it wasn't even a serious threat. It was more like he wanted to annoy Stefan with it, not because he really wanted to 'steal' Elena from him.
When he realized he had feelings for her he had a dilemma on his hands and at first he didn't handle it right (thus the attempt to kiss her in 1x22) but eventually he did when he told her (under compulsion) how he felt but that he was not going to act on it and for the most part he didn't. He had moments of weakness, especially when they were so close as friends and it became harder for him to resist the temptation. It was totally believable and in my opinion, not sleazy at all! There were times he encouraged SE to work things out. Heck he even bought Elena a dress to look nice to see Stefan in season 3. He told Elena the reasons Stefan did things when she was mad at him so she wouldn't be mad at him. If he was trying to 'steal' her why would he ever do that?
He did his best to keep them together and when they did break up, and he found out it was because of him, he felt bad about it. His attempt to comfort Stefan was doomed to fail of course, but he tried and no, I don't think it wasn't genuine. I think it really was, but it was such an awkward thing, he didn't really know what to do. But the way Stefan reacted, well, I think that disproved your point about him being 'happy' for Damon. It took a while before he ever made his 'not NOT happy' speech.
I'm just saying that it isn't what you claim and you are forgetting a whole lot of things that happened that prove it.
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 11, 2016 2:04:23 GMT -5
No that post was not "Why people should treat Damon bad" It was explaining where the "Damon stole her" thing came from because AnbuPrincess. It was just triangle wise I was saying that Damon was far from innocent. It's one of those "Does the end justify the means?" like situation. I was just saying that Damon when he was better could have handled things right. Like I showed season 3 he was still doing somewhat questionable things. Like telling her to remember feeling for him or kissing her in the motel (not really his fault but it's still iffy if he handled it well lol)
Now vampirelust I mentioned before look at stefan season 1 then season 7. He's changed and grew. He's darker than he once was BUT ultimately at his core he's still good. As you mentioned he told him he was selfish ect... BUT look at the context. Damon was talking about his "true self" Whenever he says that he means his dark side. But look when he was cained up. Stefan unties tells him and tells him he wasn't his self. Plus look at what Stefan's hell was. His hell was no Damon. He loves him and is accepting of him. He just doesn't always trust him 100% but as I've mentioned in the past Damon has burnt him so many times there will be trust issues there.
As for Doppelgänger yes it took him a while to get over it which is 100% understandable. Like i said Damon started out with bad intentions BUT his feelings changed. If Damon can have time to change why can't stefan? I'm not making out it's simple. Simple is going "everything was wrong" or "everything was for love so its ok" my point was it was a grey area. It started for the wrong reasons , It grew to love yes. However it's still not an innocent thing as that is still a horrible thing to do to your brother. My point was that was really bad thing to happen so I can see why people would be on the "steal her" side which yes it's her choice I've blamed her too lol but "he stole his girlfriend" is something you say in those situations. It's like Stefan threatening to kill Elena was wrong, was it somehow "right" as he did it for a good reason, to stop the villain? No as it hurt her. They hurt stefan and they did it in someways they shouldn't. It was a little dirty or bad.
However the fact stefan grew to accept it , be happy for his brother and even want them together should prove he's not the villian who hates damon as everyone claims and he does see the best in him at times. he's just cautious. But both brothers love each other so I just want to see them get closer lol
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2016 8:51:51 GMT -5
You're preaching to the choir here in telling us that Damon is far from innocent lol. The Damon 'stole' her argument is still dated. We're in season 7 now so when you said Damon 'stole' Elena, I thought you meant how Delena came to be currently, not a scene that took place back in 1x03. You're using scenes from season one as examples before Damon was even in love with Elena and when the brothers relationship was far damaged then than it was now.
I also don't get why whenever some of the questionable things Stefan says and does is brought up, you always have some way to phrase it in a way that ultimately Stefan is never wrong, like the video I posted with Stefan's line to Damon about how Damon shouldn't pretend this isn't the happiest moment of his life when Damon himself wasn't in any way rejoicing over the breakup. As Vampirelust said, Damon's always made aware of how Stefan feels. Yet Damon offering some brother time with Stefan is insincere? Maybe YOU felt it was. Damon was not in anyway being snarky, or sarcastic, his tone of voice completely changes. How about if Damon said a line like 'not NOT happy'. Would that soddenly seem insincere because Damon's saying the words and not Stefan?
Damon didn't gloat because Stefan would hit him? Or there's no point to rub it in Stefan's face? Better for Stefan to say a snarky comment than hit him? Like again why are we making up these assumptions to justify why Stefan reacted said that line to him? It's so funny because for people to bring up that Damon is a selfish brother who's all about stealing his bro's girlfriend and doesn't care what he thinks, even in a scene that's shows him clearly NOT doing anything that points to that, you're making up excuses as to WHY Damon didn't act like that. As in a, 'Well this is why Damon didn't gloat or act selfish towards his brother because he knows Stefan would hit him!' Which doesn't make any sense. You're really giving the impression that you don't give Damon any credit even when you're seeing otherwise play out on the scene.
VampireLust brought it out already, but you seem to be not addressing it. You must have forgotten how Stefan knew about Damon's involvement with Katherine yet states right out how he didn't care or how he hurt him. Here's the video so you don't think that we're just 'claiming' things. He says it around 2:26. This is Stefan telling his side of things to Elena. He actually says this line himself verses it being something like, 'Damon said that you didn't care he was with her' or whatever. What makes this interesting is how this was before they were vampires and drama or rift between the brothers, right at the beginning Stefan shows how much Damon's feelings didn't matter to him.
You know there's actually a scene in season 5 between Damon and Stefan that I really like. Delena is not in a good place at the time because plot shenanigans and Stefan comes to sit by Damon and they actually have a brotherly talk of encouragement coming from Stefan's side. Should I assume that Stefan only said those 'nice things' to Damon because if he gloated then Damon would hit him. What if during the end of this talk Damon said, 'Come on Stefan. Let's not pretend this is the happiest moment of your life.' I guarantee everyone would think Damon was a dick in that moment lol. This is actually one of those moments far few and inbetween where Stefan has seemed like he has come to accept Damon's relationship with Elena, but of course development like this never sticks, sometimes the writing acts like moments like this never happened at all and we're back to Stefan thinking the worst of Damon.
It's like Stefan threatening to kill Elena was wrong, was it somehow "right" as he did it for a good reason, to stop the villain? No as it hurt her. They hurt stefan and they did it in someways they shouldn't. It was a little dirty or bad.
Yet despite how traumatized and scared Elena was in this moment, done by Stefan, it's never brought up ever again by Elena or any of the characters ever again in the narrative and the characters even still push Elena to Stefan as the 'good' brother despite a moment like this. I wish it was actually talked about or discussed between Stefan/Elena then it wouldn't feel as much of a cope out to brush things under the rug all to make Damon seem 'worst' to Stefan in comparison. I really don't see how this was something you'd expect a character who's touted as pure or feels others pain as great as his own or is the hero/good brother, could do something as dark as this. Getting revenge on Klaus was more important than Elena's life, Stefan knew how her parents went over that same bridge, he knew how Elena felt about turning, but none of that mattered. Even after his plan against Klaus worked, he just leaves her there on the bridge to walk home.
However the fact stefan grew to accept it , be happy for his brother and even want them together should prove he's not the villian who hates damon as everyone claims and he does see the best in him at times. he's just cautious. But both brothers love each other so I just want to see them get closer lol
You keep putting that 'villain' word in our mouths in regards to Stefan. Also we're not 'claiming' anything. Here's what a claim is, state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof. We're certainly not saying things like this without proof and showing you video evidence or providing you with actual episode references.
Stefan grew to accept it and be happy for Damon. Eh, kinda. Like I said in that video I put of 5x11 where Stefan seems relatively easy going. The main issue is how inconsistent the writing is, an easygoing scene like that could take place, and a few episodes down the line, Stefan can suddenly revert back to thinking differently. One moment he's happy for Delena, the next he's saying Damon's the worst thing ever for Elena. Stefan's like a roller coaster of ups and downs lol. I hate Stefan's inconsistent writing and the writer's constantly retconning him back to square moments, not the character itself. If Stefan didn't come off like he was protected by plot armor where nothing bad against him could ever be addressed and characters did call out his mistakes and we got to see him learn from some consequences of his actions, I'd have no problem from Stefan.
You provided video evidence before and in the case of Stefan growing to accept DE and be happy for his brother, I could find more videos of where that ISN'T the case honestly with how inconsistent they write Stefan.
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jul 11, 2016 13:51:55 GMT -5
No that post was not "Why people should treat Damon bad" It was explaining where the "Damon stole her" thing came from because AnbuPrincess. It was just triangle wise I was saying that Damon was far from innocent. It's one of those "Does the end justify the means?" like situation. I was just saying that Damon when he was better could have handled things right. Like I showed season 3 he was still doing somewhat questionable things. Like telling her to remember feeling for him or kissing her in the motel (not really his fault but it's still iffy if he handled it well lol) Now vampirelust I mentioned before look at stefan season 1 then season 7. He's changed and grew. He's darker than he once was BUT ultimately at his core he's still good. As you mentioned he told him he was selfish ect... BUT look at the context. Damon was talking about his "true self" Whenever he says that he means his dark side. But look when he was cained up. Stefan unties tells him and tells him he wasn't his self. Plus look at what Stefan's hell was. His hell was no Damon. He loves him and is accepting of him. He just doesn't always trust him 100% but as I've mentioned in the past Damon has burnt him so many times there will be trust issues there. As for Doppelgänger yes it took him a while to get over it which is 100% understandable. Like i said Damon started out with bad intentions BUT his feelings changed. If Damon can have time to change why can't stefan? I'm not making out it's simple. Simple is going "everything was wrong" or "everything was for love so its ok" my point was it was a grey area. It started for the wrong reasons , It grew to love yes. However it's still not an innocent thing as that is still a horrible thing to do to your brother. My point was that was really bad thing to happen so I can see why people would be on the "steal her" side which yes it's her choice I've blamed her too lol but "he stole his girlfriend" is something you say in those situations. It's like Stefan threatening to kill Elena was wrong, was it somehow "right" as he did it for a good reason, to stop the villain? No as it hurt her. They hurt stefan and they did it in someways they shouldn't. It was a little dirty or bad. However the fact stefan grew to accept it , be happy for his brother and even want them together should prove he's not the villian who hates damon as everyone claims and he does see the best in him at times. he's just cautious. But both brothers love each other so I just want to see them get closer lol You do realize that when Stefan left at the end of season 2, he essentially broke up with Elena and then in season 3 in an early episode he told her again that he didn't want her around, breaking up with her AGAIN. So when these things happened, like the motel kiss, SE was technically NOT together. Sure it was messy as hell but no, they were not currently together and I think that JP was pretty careful to make sure none of those things happened while SE were together. |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 11, 2016 13:55:55 GMT -5
To be fair the "steal her" I was responding to you when you asked for examples. Plus to be fair we are on season 7 but isn't it like year 4 so season 4 at the time of break up was like 1 year ago? How long was Damon mad at Stefan when Katherine wanted him? So it's still there it'll still hurt him  It was just how I read the scene. I felt the "get a drink" was so insincere BUT as you and others have said we all read into scenes what we felt. I felt it was more of of "oh god he's pissed try to distract him" type thing. (quoted so you knew which i was replying too.) Plus I never said Stefan is never wrong. I just felt he's getting way to much negativity on anything he does. He's done plenty wrong. I mentioned a big one in the ridge thing. He's done others like killing damon's fake girlfriend. I even said I cheered when Damon hit him for saying it was just a Sire bond. But some situations I can understand it. Like Damon telling Elena "I'm not going to make it so easy for you" I cheered as I was like "Who takes someone to hotel kisses them and then says they are just waiting for them to lash out?" I loved it Damon revealed Stefan slept with Katherine as it was like "Really? you thought no one would mention it?" I just feel Stefan always gets treated badly by fans. Elena says to Damon "Maybe that's the problem" when he tells her her loves her so he gets to into a fight and walks away = He's angry it's ok (I even said "He's mad i understand it") Stefan is mad/upset and says something negative and everyones like "HOW DARE HE!!!" It seems a little unfair as it's like Stefan can not show emotions or everyone judges. It's like Damon let's his mother die without saying anything "rightfully so!" Stefan gives in and accidentally kills his father who abused them and ripped away Katherine (plus also killed them) and fans online say "HEARTLESS MONSTER!!" It's like how many snarky comments about everything does damon make? Every one stefan makes = becauses he's wrong! like how much did fans hate the "Elena is human again, time for a brother swap?" joke which if anything proved he was at least getting over it enough he could joke about it. Damon's made jokes about killing people ect... which are usually pretty funny. But stefan's was wrong because it was stefan. Stefan is far from good or always right. BUT he's not always wrong either. I only excuse some of it as I can see why. Like I can excuse some of his negativity towards Damon as he had 100+ negativity from Damon. Maybe it's just cause I love both brothers, Though IMO the worst thing stefan did wrong was been boring as hell in season 1 (thank god the show stopped been twilight and became it's own lol) like worse thing damon did was stop iusing his cool powers from pilot lol Seriously you can control fog + a cool bird! don't stop that. How much easier would it have it been when they were after cure to just send his little bird to grab it and bring it back while he played Xbox with jeremy? lol Obviously kidding as that'd be terrible to watch. But both brothers have bad + good. I just see it as Damon has done worse to the main cast that I don't mind them been overly negative. Though I will say some of the audience might not expect Damon to be as bad if every ****ing year the actor himself + writers tease "He's going to be to closer to the old Damon we know" and put in scenes to tease that! But regardless my point in the post stands. People do treat Stefan harsher to which I say Is it surprising he is written as the "good" brother more when even his haters act like they hold him to higher standard? p.s this episode now may be the logest episode discussion thread. Even I'm not on this episode. I feel half this thread could moved into a "Are Damon and Stefan treated fairly by fans and writers?" Discussion thread lol But I am enjoying it as I do see and understand everyone's points even If i disagree |
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 11, 2016 14:04:55 GMT -5
No that post was not "Why people should treat Damon bad" It was explaining where the "Damon stole her" thing came from because AnbuPrincess. It was just triangle wise I was saying that Damon was far from innocent. It's one of those "Does the end justify the means?" like situation. I was just saying that Damon when he was better could have handled things right. Like I showed season 3 he was still doing somewhat questionable things. Like telling her to remember feeling for him or kissing her in the motel (not really his fault but it's still iffy if he handled it well lol) Now vampirelust I mentioned before look at stefan season 1 then season 7. He's changed and grew. He's darker than he once was BUT ultimately at his core he's still good. As you mentioned he told him he was selfish ect... BUT look at the context. Damon was talking about his "true self" Whenever he says that he means his dark side. But look when he was cained up. Stefan unties tells him and tells him he wasn't his self. Plus look at what Stefan's hell was. His hell was no Damon. He loves him and is accepting of him. He just doesn't always trust him 100% but as I've mentioned in the past Damon has burnt him so many times there will be trust issues there. As for Doppelgänger yes it took him a while to get over it which is 100% understandable. Like i said Damon started out with bad intentions BUT his feelings changed. If Damon can have time to change why can't stefan? I'm not making out it's simple. Simple is going "everything was wrong" or "everything was for love so its ok" my point was it was a grey area. It started for the wrong reasons , It grew to love yes. However it's still not an innocent thing as that is still a horrible thing to do to your brother. My point was that was really bad thing to happen so I can see why people would be on the "steal her" side which yes it's her choice I've blamed her too lol but "he stole his girlfriend" is something you say in those situations. It's like Stefan threatening to kill Elena was wrong, was it somehow "right" as he did it for a good reason, to stop the villain? No as it hurt her. They hurt stefan and they did it in someways they shouldn't. It was a little dirty or bad. However the fact stefan grew to accept it , be happy for his brother and even want them together should prove he's not the villian who hates damon as everyone claims and he does see the best in him at times. he's just cautious. But both brothers love each other so I just want to see them get closer lol You do realize that when Stefan left at the end of season 2, he essentially broke up with Elena and then in season 3 in an early episode he told her again that he didn't want her around, breaking up with her AGAIN. So when these things happened, like the motel kiss, SE was technically NOT together. Sure it was messy as hell but no, they were not currently together and I think that JP was pretty careful to make sure none of those things happened while SE were together. (was posted as I was replying to previous post) You are right but as you say "technically NOT together" I viewed them as together but in a rocky patch (avoiding using "on a break" as I don't want the same discussion as the "Friends" boards lol) Elena wanted him back , But he had his Emotions off. Even Klaus was impressed by the love he had (LOVE the way Klaus screamed "TURN IT OFF!") So i view them as together but in a tough place. Even when Stefan told her to stay away we all knew it was to keep him safe. (FYI damon running up and pushing her in the water during this time is maybe the second funniest thing ever on the show. 1st been "Dear Diary, a chipmunk asked me my name today. I told him it was Joe. That lie, will haunt me, forever" XD not relevant but no where else to mention it) So they are either "together" as I saw it BUT i can see not seeing it in which case they had just broke up so it was still a **** thing to do. but Yes they were careful enough to make sure it could be seen either way I will agree 100% |
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Post by Doppelgänger on Jul 11, 2016 15:33:24 GMT -5
It kind of seems like we're getting nowhere about the same stuff as we've discussed for years with SEs with neither side budging. I will move this into debates later today. I'm currently supposed to be working...ha!
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Post by chrizakathemole on Jul 11, 2016 16:30:16 GMT -5
It kind of seems like we're getting nowhere about the same stuff as we've discussed for years with SEs with neither side budging. I will move this into debates later today. I'm currently supposed to be working...ha! At least this was civil plus i was not 100% one or the other lol for me it depends on situation. or "working"? pffffft you're such a "Matt" you can choose which response you like A) appreciation of a fun debate or B) a tvd joke. The choice is yours lol |
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she admits to it! She admits she doesnt't want to choose. (Isn't that one of the reasons she says Katherine was a villain?) and the "I've lost so many people" is a ****ing sick line IMO. You lost people because they DIED! You leave one to go to the other? oh no they will never talk to you again ...... by the way tell matt i say hi. 
this is also after telling Damon all about the fact that in order to free himself from the phoenix stone he had to let Damon die. Way to go Stefan!!!! 
