Delena > Stelena

[delena4eva]

I also didn't like the Stelena insta-relationship. It all happened too fast and I got bored with it by mid first season. I started watching this show already being a Delena fan because I had already read the book, but when I had first reading the books, I absolutely loved Stelena (until Shadow Souls, then I fell in love with Damon's character). I still prefer book Stelena over tv Stelena (except for all that "little lovely love" crap).

[Princess of Darkness]

Dec 17, 2011 12:34:27 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

I agree with Teppy1 I don't think Stefan's one dimensional at all. I think he has as many layers as Damon does but I think largely the problem with Stefan's character stems from the actual writing. I fear when it comes to Stefan, a lot gets lost in translation. I feel the writers are sometimes too careful with the way they portray him, especially this season and because of that many still view him as one dimensional.

I never expected Stefan's character to be completely "bad" this season but I'm afraid the writers have intentionally written the "ripper" story-line in away that completely removes any responsibility from him, essentially making him either a victim or a hero, but never the cause of any problems. I feel with Damon every bad thing he's done has been his own doing, there were never any excuses made for Damon's character whenever he screwed up. Of course they let the audiences see things from his POV but it's ultimately their decision whether or not they want to excuse him or understand.

With Stefan I feel the writers try and force sympathy by making all these loopholes and excuses for his actions. I think the ripper story-line would have been a lot more effective without the compulsion and all the other things they created in order to keep Stefan the "good guy." He had a blood problem and a past as a ripper, they could have built on that and took his story in a really good direction. But it seems like they want to have it both ways with Stefan, they want him to remain the "good guy" all while giving him a "dark" story-line. These two things aren't exactly possible at least not simultaneously. IMO

I think at the end of the day the whole ripper background and blood problems are pointless if they're not going to be a factor in the present day, in his present struggle. This season Stefan didn't seem to struggle much with blood, or his past as a ripper, it was compulsion that did all the work, so all this stuff about him being a ripper in the past and having trouble controlling his blood urges were brought up for what exactly? They didn't seem to matter much at all.

First of all, I just want to say that I love your first post. You expressed so many good points and I think we agree on a lot as far as SE vs DE. I will say that for the most part of the first two seasons, I also, like Doppelganger, saw Stefan as a one-dimensional character. It wasn't until the end of season two that I started to see him differently.

I feel like for a better part of the first two seasons, we didn't get that much story from Stefan-- at least not in comparison to Damon. For example, when Damon came to town, Stefan unloaded A LOT of Damon's baggage on Elena, right away. We saw that Damon could be dark, twisted, and self destructive. We saw that he made mistakes-- ones that he had no EXCUSABLE REASON for doing. We learned about his past, and we watched him grow-- burn down some of that growth, and rebuild.

With Stefan on the other hand, other than the human blood issue in season one, it felt like Stefan always had it together. (And I agree, that this really comes down to the writing.) Stefan makes mistakes and there's always some reason that he gets-- he's always been shown in a good light.

I remember JP once saying something along the lines of "This is such an unpopular opinion," Plec says cautiously, "but I really feel strongly about everybody's willingness to love Damon no matter what he does. I love Damon. Who doesn't love Damon? But if everybody loves him no matter what he does, then how does what he does have impact? How is there anything profound about your anti-hero or your villain?"

Obviously-- she was talking about Damon in this case, but I'm using what she said--- and making it about Stefan. You have this character who is always "good"--- so when you decide to make him "leap off a cliff," don't give him a bungee cord. For me to ever fully buy into his story-- I need it to feel real.

We don't always have some excusable reason for the things we do. Stefan shouldn't either.

Now, I will be honest in saying that Stefan has definitely grown on me this season because whether or not there's a good reason for it-- Stefan is showing a different side. We've seen a little more of his past (ripper days-- where he truly didn't have a good reason for doing the thing he was doing.)

He's gotten to be funny this season and we've seen a different dynamic between him and all the characters. (Except Caroline )

We've gotten to see Stefan have a story OUTSIDE of Elena.

I really do feel like there's hope for Stefan as far as me growing to like him more, even when he fully regains his emotions.

"I don't know that he can return to who he was because who he was was not actually a true representation of who he is." -Julie Plec[/color]

[thebabe20]

^^^
You know every time I read that bit about JP having a problem with people loving Damon no matter what he does, it makes me feel uneasy, I can't exactly tell you why. Shouldn't that be a good thing? That you write a character that is so relatable and dynamic that people automatically understand why he does things, no matter how horrible they are. I know she probably thinks that people automatically love Damon for shallow reasons (and certainly there are those who do) that they're willing to look past his actions, but there are people like myself and plenty others who love Damon and can acknowledge that he's screwed up a lot and hold him responsible for his actions.

I honestly think JP and the rest of the writers think that they can have Damon do whatever without any excuses and fans will always forgive and forget (and maybe they're right), but I don't think they have the same confidence in Stefan's character which is probably why they build excuses for him, so fans won't have any reason to hate him. If this is true, then they need to go back to the drawing board and pin-point exactly what they did wrong with this character that they have to be so super careful not to write the wrong thing for fear that fans will turn against him. Like Doppelganger said, the way they write Stefan screams they lack any kind of confidence in this character.

As far as Stefan this season, I can't say I like him anymore than I ever did, but I do agree it's at least nice to see him interacting with other characters that are not Elena, and seeing different sides of him. It's like a change of scenery, but I still don't feel much of anything toward him. TBH.. I found myself falling in love with Klaus instead.

[Princess of Darkness]

Dec 18, 2011 1:05:20 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

^^^
You know every time I read that bit about JP having a problem with people loving Damon no matter what he does, it makes me feel uneasy, I can't exactly tell you why. Shouldn't that be a good thing? That you write a character that is so relatable and dynamic that people automatically understand why he does things, no matter how horrible they are. I know she probably thinks that people automatically love Damon for shallow reasons (and certainly there are those who do) that they're willing to look past his actions, but there are people like myself and plenty others who love Damon and can acknowledge that he's screwed up a lot and hold him responsible for his actions.

I honestly think JP and the rest of the writers think that they can have Damon do whatever without any excuses and fans will always forgive and forget (and maybe they're right), but I don't think they have the same confidence in Stefan's character which is probably why they build excuses for him, so fans won't have any reason to hate him. If this is true, then they need to go back to the drawing board and pin-point exactly what they did wrong with this character that they have to be so super careful not to write the wrong thing for fear that fans will turn against him. Like Doppelganger said, the way they write Stefan screams they lack any kind of confidence in this character.

As far as Stefan this season, I can't say I like him anymore than I ever did, but I do agree it's at least nice to see him interacting with other characters that are not Elena, and seeing different sides of him. It's like a change of scenery, but I still don't feel much of anything toward him. TBH.. I found myself falling in love with Klaus instead.

I understand what you mean. I remember when that interview came out-- it feel like a slap in the face to Delena fans. Other stuff in it was a LOT worse and seemingly demeaning towards the DE fans. I honestly just think it was probably a bad day and she'd received a bunch of twitter hate from supposed fans. To a point, I can understand where she's coming from. DE fans DO forgive and find excuses for Damon even when he shouldn't be excused-- and at the time, soon after the Jeremy neck-snapping--- that is exactly what DE fans were doing.

Even I was doing it and I fully admit it and own it.

And honestly, I'd do it again. Damon has depth-- you understand the things he does-- you find reasons for him, because your heart hurts for him-- you understand his pain.

I think JP just wanted Damon's actions to really sink in with the fans and she probably didn't expect such backlash after the Jeremy incident. I think her point is basically that from a writer's standpoint-- Damon is one of those characters that should really leave a lasting effect on you and if he just-- can do anything, and it doesn't change our views on him-- then nothing he does will truly resonate with us. For her, because she is sort of the creator- at least of show Damon, that can be disappointing.


@julieplec Reading one of your interviews, it dawned on me that you don't realize why DE fans ALWAYS come to his defense.. I don't know if its a joke or what, so allow me to explain. The story that you help to create is just that. A story. A fictional world. How can anyone say what is truly right and wrong? Damon may do horrible, crazy, things. But thats simply what love does to you. And as far as any vampire goes, to kill to protect, to feed, or for fun (sport), isn't unlike humans, and if vampires were real they WOULD be the top of the food chain. They would be us. So I think for anyone to be judgmental on how these creatures act is.. at best, pretty silly.

Beyond that, I will damn well ALWAYS come to Damon's defense because I actually see humanity in him.. Humans do stupid, reckless, horrible things. We dont think before we act and we end up mad at ourselves for it. We make good choices and bad choices, and that is exactly what I see in Damon. I see the good and bad, the love, the hate.. the everything.."human" inside of him. I don't see that with Stefan. I only see, Mr. Perfect, Mr. angel, Mr. look down his nose.. with the exception of yesterday because to me his emotions really shown thru yesterday. You could tell he understood what Damon was feeling, because all those years ago when he made Damon turn, he felt that himself. I really hope you make Stefan's character..more whole, as in GOOD, BAD, SELFISH, SELFLESSNESS, and EVERYTHING like you have in Damon. Because right now, I havent seen it much..

So yes, I can relate to Damon easier, and for me, he is more real and his humanity shines through in more ways than one... and so, I will ALWAYS come to his defense, and ALWAYS try to understand his actions.


@pinkxsmoke Everything you say about Damon is exactly right. That's the way we've built him. He's struggling with his humanity.... his suffering is because it's all so new to him. He's run from it for so long, it's like a new skin for him. He won't always know the right way to handle it. He will f-ck up majorly. He will revert. He will feel remorse.... he will change for the better, and then sometimes he won't be able to help himself. He's on a journey. Stefan was deep into his journey when he met Elena. Damon's has just begun. The question is, what is next on Stefan's road?



^ A rant of mine that Julie replied to around the end of last season. (FYI- I wasn't referring to the mentioned interview in the post, in my tweet.)

[Doppelgänger]

While I can admit that Stefan has been different recently, just this season and maybe the last episode of last season and more has been revealed about him, I still don't feel much for the character. To me it isn't even a Damon vs Stefan thing. I just don't like him and I didn't like him from the beginning of the show. Nothing has happened with his character to make me feel any differently toward him. He's just there, a part of the show.

He's the hero and aren't I supposed to like him? I always scratch my head over this. Because I truly would like to like him and find some sort of connection with him but to date that hasn't happened for me. Maybe it does have a little bit to do with there being 'sides.' Because I often see Stefan as the antagonist to Damon. He's the guy taking the jabs at him. He's the guy who, in my opinion, played dirty by saying things about Damon that made him sound much worse than he was.

I mean Damon was pretty dangerous in the beginning, and I've heard the argument that he was just warning the people around them that he could be dangerous. But I still think he went overboard when he assigned motives to Damon that just weren't there. Damon was never the evil heartless creature that he made him out to be. It was episode 3 of season 1 where he stroked Elena's face, for perspective. Damon already had dimension right with that and was far more than the eye could see and alot less evil than Stefan was saying he was.

Then there's the obvious thing that no matter what they make Stefan this 'good' guy. Everything he does is supposedly for some 'good' reason. That isn't even realistic, especially given his history as the ripper. Heck he even labelled himself the 'good' brother, in Miss Mystic Falls. He even thinks he's better than Damon and yet he turns into this ripper.

But the whole 'good' thing also makes him seem one note to me, and maybe that's where I feel he's missing dimension. Yes, it's been better lately, but it still feels like it's missing because again, they keep making it seem like everything he does has some altruistic purpose. Just let the guy screw up already! I might actually like him.

Because only then, will it seem like he's growing as a character when he sc****s his way back again. Let him be really super evil for a little while as the ripper. Let us see him struggle to hang onto his humanity. I thought we were going there in the beginning of all this and I was looking forward to it, but it seems we never got there before he was back to being the guy that saves the day. I guess there's still time for it, but he'd have to sink alot lower than he has.

[delena4eva]

I so much enjoy reading these debates!

I love Stefan's character mainly because of this season. And, I actually do find myself forgiving him for everything he's done so far..except for the stealing of the coffins...that was just dumb on his part...he must have been having an "Elena" moment - dumb, rash decision

I think the one thing that I really hated that Damon did was kill Lexi. Everything else I forgive him for, I just really enjoy his character so much!

[Doppelgänger]

That did kind of suck. I liked Lexi. But as for the Delena vs Stelena, I'd say it has to come down to which brother really resonates with you and for me, it's Damon and probably part of that is that the writers wrote him so well right from the beginning, as I pointed out. They gave him dimension and started him on his journey and look how far he's come? Nobody can deny the changes he's made. How can you not like that?

So, I think they need to work a little harder to do the same with Stefan, to have him hit rock bottom and pull himself back up again, to realize he isn't this 'good' brother persona he assigned himself, that he can screw up and he can make mistakes and it will be ok in the end. I think he needs to come to that conclusion all on his own. I'd really like to see that.

I mean nobody is good all the time and he's even way too hard on himself when he does mess up. He goes all emo. This is not a balanced character. He denied that part of himself that was the ripper and he really can't do that and be a whole person. So he's got alot of area for growth if they'd just get to it.

[Tara]

Hi!
I think I liked the instant connection with S/E. I believe sometimes you just know. Their relationship seems very realistic even though shes human and hes a vampire. They've had their good and bad times. Their relationship makes them both stronger. It gives them something to fight for. I think a lot of people miss the good things in Stefan. He's caring, sweet, loving, and he sacrifices to save the people he loves. Yes, he has a dark part in him. But I think the good out weighs it, and who Stefan wants to be. I'd like to see Damon with someone who blends with him more. Where he could still be Damon. I like Damon, but don't like him with Elena. I think there's someone who would be more compatable with him.

[Doppelgänger]

I have thought this myself from time to time. Elena was pushing pretty hard to change him and that bothered me. But now she seems to be willing to accept him for who he is albeit he has already changed alot. He still has his moments of acting impulsively, like killing Alaric, again. Poor Alaric. Guy is dead almost more than he's alive.

But I have thought this. I don't currently think there are any better choices than Elena and I don't see Damon stopping loving her so I guess we'll see how she acts currently with him now that she has decided to accept him for who he is.

As for Stefan, I do see the good things about him, but like I said, I think they made him too 'good' in that he lost his dimension or never had it to begin with. Even the ripper seems to be watered down as a whole while they still push this selfless nonsense in the middle of his ripper phase when he was supposed to be compelled not to care, feelings off and all that.

It doesn't even make sense to me. Why did they call him a ripper? It's supposed to be the baddest of the bad, and yet I'm not seeing it. I get that they want Stefan to be good but it becomes not believable in some instances. It becomes unrealistic and pointless. Always making him save Damon lately repetitively is also not very believable and another pointless mechanic to boost Stefan's goodness rating with fans. Why?

Maybe some of us would like to see him get down and dirty and actually be the ripper that they claim he is. Maybe we'd like to see him be a little more complicated than the always good guy doing the selfless acts for everyone else. I mean he's a vampire and a ripper vampire at that, and they try to shove this 'good' stuff down our throats at the same time like it makes sense and it just doesn't to me. It's almost like they are afraid to take risks with his character. They were going down the ripper road but they won't go down it fully.

I suppose I could be wrong. Maybe this is what Stefan's fanbase wants but it isn't what I want to see out of him. I want to be able to like him and it's going to take a little more than his always good, always selfless stuff to make that happen for me.

It took 2.5 years to transform Damon to what he is now and he still has room for more growth. They can't rush this with Stefan either. But instead of sinking lower it seems like he's started to come back out of it already. I guess that's my biggest complaint. I always wind up feeling ripped off when it comes to Stefan's storyline.

[Tara]

Dec 18, 2011 10:32:52 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

I have thought this myself from time to time. Elena was pushing pretty hard to change him and that bothered me. But now she seems to be willing to accept him for who he is albeit he has already changed alot. He still has his moments of acting impulsively, like killing Alaric, again. Poor Alaric. Guy is dead almost more than he's alive.

But I have thought this. I don't currently think there are any better choices than Elena and I don't see Damon stopping loving her so I guess we'll see how she acts currently with him now that she has decided to accept him for who he is.

As for Stefan, I do see the good things about him, but like I said, I think they made him too 'good' in that he lost his dimension or never had it to begin with. Even the ripper seems to be watered down as a whole while they still push this selfless nonsense in the middle of his ripper phase when he was supposed to be compelled not to care, feelings off and all that.

It doesn't even make sense to me. Why did they call him a ripper? It's supposed to be the baddest of the bad, and yet I'm not seeing it. I get that they want Stefan to be good but it becomes not believable in some instances. It becomes unrealistic and pointless. Always making him save Damon lately repetitively is also not very believable and another pointless mechanic to boost Stefan's goodness rating with fans. Why?

Maybe some of us would like to see him get down and dirty and actually be the ripper that they claim he is. Maybe we'd like to see him be a little more complicated than the always good guy doing the selfless acts for everyone else. I mean he's a vampire and a ripper vampire at that, and they try to shove this 'good' stuff down our throats at the same time like it makes sense and it just doesn't to me. It's almost like they are afraid to take risks with his character. They were going down the ripper road but they won't go down it fully.

I suppose I could be wrong. Maybe this is what Stefan's fanbase wants but it isn't what I want to see out of him. I want to be able to like him and it's going to take a little more than his always good, always selfless stuff to make that happen for me.

As a Stefan fan, I guess I like him "good". I don't want him to turn into "Ripper", and for Stefan to want to be that. I liked him in S1&2, and 3. But I like what he represented in S1&2. I like that he wants his humanity. That he wants to not just be a vampire. I think he has so many layers, but they all build up to a great guy. I think no matter what, he's always going to fight to be good. I do agree the "Ripper" thing was kind of pointless, but if they had made him turn into what that means, I don't know how Stefan fans would have reacted. Because, it's just not him. It's not something Stefan would want now. I know it's his past, but to me, he moved past that. It's not him anymore. It hasn't been for a long time.

As for Damon/Elena, I like both characters seperatley. But together, I just don't. I think Elena has changed him too much. It's not like she accepted him for him. I like that Damon's growing, but I want to see the fun/out there Damon from S1&2 too. I don't think someone should have to change for the other person to love them. I think theres a character out there who would accept Damon for Damon. That would blend better for him. Just my opinion.

[Deleted]

See, I always think back to what Emily said to Stefan... "even in death your heart is pure Stefan, I sense that about you."

I think that in some ways some people wanted Stefan to turn into Damon... his bad is not going to be the same as Damon's bad. They are in fact different characters. Just like Damon being "good" is not like Stefan being good.

Yes, he is a ripper and in his younger days he was easily sucked into being masochistic he is now older, he has been through a lot and like Lexi said " Love, Stefan, that's the point" he now has something that he loves that drives his humanity forward. Where he did not have that in 1920 or earlier.

I think for him to become a ripper uncaring about his actions would not be Stefan of present day. He has evolved. We have not seen Stefan's full evolution from what he was to what he is as we have not seen Damon's... I actually think they made Damon's transition a little forced. Season 2 was a little repetitive and frustrating to watch. It was like the same episode over and over. Granted I get why they did and I am glad we are where we are with Damon now, but I really did not like Season 2... way too much Damon, being "Damon"

I think that they forced his feeling from Katherine to Elena to quickly. I still am not convinced he is over Katherine. I mean the flashback when he was dieing shows he still is hurt by what she did, which means he still cares. He searched for a way to find Katherine for his whole life and he stopped loving her in an episode and started loving Elena..., just was not very believable to me. I actually thought I might be a multi-shipper until the episode he killed Jeremy. He was willing to be with Katherine, he loved her said he would forgive everything.... she rejects him and he goes straight to Elena and all the sudden loves her... then she rejects him so he kills Jeremy. It just rubbed me the wrong way. From then on I did not believe he stopped loving Katherine. No matter what he does...it just seems like him being hurt not that he is not in love with her. That is all just my opinion. I understand that others may have a very different view of it, but when I was watching it that is what I saw.

[thebabe20]

I'm don't think I'm missing any good things about Stefan actually. Who could miss any of the million great things about him that the writers constantly push in our faces. I know he's caring, sweet, selfless, and I can go on for days.

I think that's precisely what the problems is. Stefan doesn't seem like an actual person sometimes, because the writers always make sure all his motives and intentions are pure and good, and when they're not they just brush over them. Everything he does is for some altruistic purposes, even when he's supposed to be a ripper. He doesn't seem to have any ill-motives and that's just not realistic, everyone does from time to time.

I know this is fiction but you're supposed try and make the characters as believable and realistic as possible and thus that seems to be the issue I have with Stefan. Stefan is this almost saint like individual whom I seriously have a hard time relating to because even I don't always feel like doing the right thing all the time and there are times I don't, and I'm just a human, not a vampire who is predatory by nature. So it makes no sense to try and make him "so good" when they can make him relatable instead.

@doppelganger

What you said about this season is precisely how I feel. I think I'm over the saving Damon antics by now. His first sacrifice was touching, but the repetitive saving Damon is becoming a bit tiresome. And seems like yet another ploy to keep Stefan "good."

The only thing they haven't given Stefan an excuse for yet is stealing those coffins (because that was just stupid), but I'm gonna hold my breath on that one, because I'm willing to bet when the show returns the writers will have found a perfect explanation as to why Stefan needed to steal those coffins.
If not they'll probably completely take the focus off of it and make a bigger deal about him saving Damon's life for the umpteenth time.

[Deleted]

Dec 18, 2011 11:09:27 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

I'm don't think I'm missing any good things about Stefan actually. Who could miss any of the million great things about him that the writers constantly push in our faces. I know he's caring, sweet, selfless, and I can go on for days.

I think that's precisely what the problems is. Stefan doesn't seem like an actual person sometimes, because the writers always make sure all his motives and intentions are pure and good, and when they're not they just brush over them. Everything he does is for some altruistic purposes, even when he's supposed to be a ripper. He doesn't seem to have any ill-motives and that's just not realistic, everyone does from time to time.

I know this is fiction but you're supposed try and make the characters as believable and realistic as possible and thus that seems to be the issue I have with Stefan. Stefan is this almost saint like individual whom I seriously have a hard time relating to because even I don't always feel like doing the right thing all the time and there are times I don't, and I'm just a human, not a vampire who is predatory by nature. So it makes no sense to try and make him "so good" when they can make him relatable instead.

@doppelganger

What you said about this season is precisely how I feel. I think I'm over the saving Damon antics by now. His first sacrifice was touching, but the repetitive saving Damon is becoming a bit tiresome. And seems like yet another ploy to keep Stefan "good."

The only thing they haven't given Stefan an excuse for yet is stealing those coffins (because that was just stupid), but I'm gonna hold my breath on that one, because I'm willing to bet when the show returns the writers will have found a perfect explanation as to why Stefan needed to steal those coffins.
If not they'll probably completely take the focus off of it and make a bigger deal about him saving Damon's life for the umpteenth time.

I think everyone would like Damon to return the sentiment... the whole we will let him go... I mean Elena saying was like jab in the stomach, but it calming Damon down was another HUGE jab. I really hope Damon of all people does not "let him go"

[Tara]

Dec 18, 2011 11:05:42 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

See, I always think back to what Emily said to Stefan... "even in death your heart is pure Stefan, I sense that about you."

I think that in some ways some people wanted Stefan to turn into Damon... his bad is not going to be the same as Damon's bad. They are in fact different characters. Just like Damon being "good" is not like Stefan being good.

Yes, he is a ripper and in his younger days he was easily sucked into being masochistic he is now older, he has been through a lot and like Lexi said " Love, Stefan, that what it is all about" he now has something that he loves that drives his humanity forward. Where he did not have that in 1920 or earlier.

I think for him to become a ripper uncaring about his actions would not be Stefan of present day. He has evolved. We have not seen Stefan's full evolution from what he was to what he is as we have not seen Damon's... I actually think they made Damon's transition a little forced. Season 2 was a little repetitive and frustrating to watch. It was like the same episode over and over. Granted I get why they did and I am glad we are where we are with Damon now, but I really did not like Season 2... way too much Damon, being "Damon"

I think that they forced his feeling from Katherine to Elena to quickly. I still am not convinced he is over Katherine. I mean the flashback when he was dieing shows he still is hurt by what she did, which means he still cares. He searched for a way to find Katherine for his whole life and he stopped loving her in an episode and started loving Elena..., just was not very believable to me. I actually thought I might be a multi-shipper until the episode he killed Jeremy. He was willing to be with Katherine, he loved her said he would forgive everything.... she rejects him and he goes straight to Elena and all the sudden loves her... then she rejects him so he kills Jeremy. It just rubbed me the wrong way. From then on I did not believe he stopped loving Katherine. No matter what he does...it just seems like him being hurt not that he is not in love with her. That is all just my opinion. I understand that others may have a very different view of it, but when I was watching it that is what I saw.

I agree 100%. I don't think theres a way Stefan could just be bad, not caring. It's not him. Hes grown, and become what he wants to be. He worked hard to have his humanity and be what he is, it's not something he would want to give up. I don't think he ever wants to be "ripper" again. I think what he did with Klaus, makes him sick. In the car with Katherine, I felt he was just sick with himself. But he did it all for Elena and Damon in the end. I know a lot of people wanted "ripper" to be different, but to me that's not who Stefan is.

But Damon, I think a lot of his "changing" was for Elena. Not because Damon wanted it. I like this Damon, but I don't feel it's really him. A lot of it was forced, and didn't feel natural. I think he still has some feelings for Katherine. But, I'd like to see him with someone that loves him for him. Not someone he has to change for. Just my opinion.

[Tara]

Dec 18, 2011 11:09:27 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

I'm don't think I'm missing any good things about Stefan actually. Who could miss any of the million great things about him that the writers constantly push in our faces. I know he's caring, sweet, selfless, and I can go on for days.

I think that's precisely what the problems is. Stefan doesn't seem like an actual person sometimes, because the writers always make sure all his motives and intentions are pure and good, and when they're not they just brush over them. Everything he does is for some altruistic purposes, even when he's supposed to be a ripper. He doesn't seem to have any ill-motives and that's just not realistic, everyone does from time to time.

I know this is fiction but you're supposed try and make the characters as believable and realistic as possible and thus that seems to be the issue I have with Stefan. Stefan is this almost saint like individual whom I seriously have a hard time relating to because even I don't always feel like doing the right thing all the time and there are times I don't, and I'm just a human, not a vampire who is predatory by nature. So it makes no sense to try and make him "so good" when they can make him relatable instead.

@doppelganger

What you said about this season is precisely how I feel. I think I'm over the saving Damon antics by now. His first sacrifice was touching, but the repetitive saving Damon is becoming a bit tiresome. And seems like yet another ploy to keep Stefan "good."

The only thing they haven't given Stefan an excuse for yet is stealing those coffins (because that was just stupid), but I'm gonna hold my breath on that one, because I'm willing to bet when the show returns the writers will have found a perfect explanation as to why Stefan needed to steal those coffins.
If not they'll probably completely take the focus off of it and make a bigger deal about him saving Damon's life for the umpteenth time.

I don't think Stefan seems like a saint. He has his faults. But he just trys to be good. He looks out for the people he loves. I don't feel it's unrealistic. Thats why I love Stefan. He represents all that, but not in a bad way. I think protecting your brother and the girl he loves is very realistic. I see what you're saying kind of, but don't really agree.