Delena > Stelena

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2011 5:55:29 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Dec 18, 2011 11:05:42 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

See, I always think back to what Emily said to Stefan... "even in death your heart is pure Stefan, I sense that about you."

I just want to comment on this. Emily is the same witch that tricked Damon into a deal she never intended to keep her end of the bargain on, so I don't have alot of faith in her own goodness in order to judge anyone else.

Given the fact of his ripper days, is it really true in the end? If we'd have seen Stefan at his worst would we still think he was 'good' and 'pure of heart' when he killed every single person in a village for fun? Damon was never as 'bad' as Stefan got to be and even Stefan acknowledged that. It's sort of a timeline thing, too.

The brothers are at different places at different times. If we look at Damon in 1864, we see that he is trying to be a good person, disgusted with Stefan's ripper behavior and wanting nothing to do with it, then somewhere along the way he swung the other way, bitterness and resentment got the better of him. Stefan started out more into the ripper mode and struggled with that for a long time going in and out of a really dark place and killing countless people. We're not even sure how long or if he's gotten to a place where it can't happen again.

It's like they both do this pendulum thing swinging between being good and being bad, both of them. In all honestly, I don't think either one of them deserves the label 'good' or 'bad' brother. For the sake of argument though there isn't really any other way to show what I think the writers themselves are doing with Stefan on the 'good' front.

So, that's the history even if it seems to me like the writers aren't acknowledging it with this latest ripper thing yet still trying to keep him 'good.' I guess that's where I have trouble with him. Just when I think things will make sense, they don't. They throw out these Stefan saves the day messages while he's supposed to be in the middle of struggling with the ripper and it just makes no sense to me at all, even when he's compelled to shut off his emotions, he's saving the day.

It doesn't match up to the history of him being this out of control killer of villages. At this point I'm not even sure what the point was to the ripper storyline at all if they weren't going to show us some really dark place that lurks inside of him. If there is no dark place why create the label of 'ripper' and build this backstory that indicated there was?

He's just not been bad enough yet to convince me it makes any sense. Now, if he were to slip further into a place where he's killing more innocents in brutal ways, etc etc all on his own, not under compulsion, duress or any other nonsense that they've thrown at us and then Damon brings him out of it, that would make sense, because we've already pretty much been foreshadowed that Damon will be the one to save him.

But again, if they are hesitating on truly making him behave badly so we can see it because of his fanbase than I guess it will never happen and he'll never be popular with the entire tvd audience because he'll never be real enough for some of us, thus earning our sympathy. They miss the boat by playing it safe. Heck I'd even take flashbacks if they don't want to make him that bad present day, just so I can really understand what they meant by 'ripper.'

Well I left out the last line... read the whole thing and I think what she was saying was because he has a pure heart and when he can't control his actions because of his desire for blood it will emotionally destroy him.

Emily: You’ve transitioned.
Stefan: You’d have rather found me dead.
Emily: Katherine saved my life once. I owed her. But that doesn’t mean I’d wish her curse on anyone.
Stefan: Feels more like a gift.
Emily: That will change.
Stefan: Why is that?
Emily: Because even in death, your heart is pure, Stefan. I sense that in you. That will be your curse.

Stefan: You don’t understand, Elena.
Elena: Then tell me.
Stefan: It hurts me. It hurts me knowing what I’ve done. And that pain, that pain is with me all the time. And every day I think that if I just…if I just give myself over to the blood, I can make that pain stop. It would be that easy. And every day I fight that. And I am so terrified that one day, I not going to want to fight that anymore more, Elena. And the next time I hurt somebody, it could be you.

I mean we did not hear her conversation with Damon... I would like to actually see that conversation or at least the one she had for him to save her family.

Plus (from a previous post) I think Emily knew Katherine was not in the tomb, but she could not tell Damon because she was still protecting Katherine's secret. But who knows. I could be wrong.

[thebabe20]

Dec 19, 2011 5:55:29 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Dec 18, 2011 11:05:42 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

See, I always think back to what Emily said to Stefan... "even in death your heart is pure Stefan, I sense that about you."

I just want to comment on this. Emily is the same witch that tricked Damon into a deal she never intended to keep her end of the bargain on, so I don't have alot of faith in her own goodness in order to judge anyone else.

Given the fact of his ripper days, is it really true in the end? If we'd have seen Stefan at his worst would we still think he was 'good' and 'pure of heart' when he killed every single person in a village for fun? Damon was never as 'bad' as Stefan got to be and even Stefan acknowledged that. It's sort of a timeline thing, too.

The brothers are at different places at different times. If we look at Damon in 1864, we see that he is trying to be a good person, disgusted with Stefan's ripper behavior and wanting nothing to do with it, then somewhere along the way he swung the other way, bitterness and resentment got the better of him. Stefan started out more into the ripper mode and struggled with that for a long time going in and out of a really dark place and killing countless people. We're not even sure how long or if he's gotten to a place where it can't happen again.

It's like they both do this pendulum thing swinging between being good and being bad, both of them. In all honestly, I don't think either one of them deserves the label 'good' or 'bad' brother. For the sake of argument though there isn't really any other way to show what I think the writers themselves are doing with Stefan on the 'good' front.

So, that's the history even if it seems to me like the writers aren't acknowledging it with this latest ripper thing yet still trying to keep him 'good.' I guess that's where I have trouble with him. Just when I think things will make sense, they don't. They throw out these Stefan saves the day messages while he's supposed to be in the middle of struggling with the ripper and it just makes no sense to me at all, even when he's compelled to shut off his emotions, he's saving the day.

It doesn't match up to the history of him being this out of control killer of villages. At this point I'm not even sure what the point was to the ripper storyline at all if they weren't going to show us some really dark place that lurks inside of him. If there is no dark place why create the label of 'ripper' and build this backstory that indicated there was?

He's just not been bad enough yet to convince me it makes any sense. Now, if he were to slip further into a place where he's killing more innocents in brutal ways, etc etc all on his own, not under compulsion, duress or any other nonsense that they've thrown at us and then Damon brings him out of it, that would make sense, because we've already pretty much been foreshadowed that Damon will be the one to save him.

But again, if they are hesitating on truly making him behave badly so we can see it because of his fanbase than I guess it will never happen and he'll never be popular with the entire tvd audience because he'll never be real enough for some of us, thus earning our sympathy. They miss the boat by playing it safe. Heck I'd even take flashbacks if they don't want to make him that bad present day, just so I can really understand what they meant by 'ripper.'

Can I just say I agree with everything in this post. This is exactly how I feel. I never understood Emily's pure heart comment. And like you said after seeing how untrustworthy she was, it's hard to believe she'd be a good judge of character anyway.

I guess I don't understand how Stefan was supposed to have a pure heart when he was immediately seduced by the power and strength of being a vampire, while his brother only turned for love and once he believed Katherine was dead, wanted no part of being a vampire. After Stefan was first turned he immediately boasted about how powerful he felt and wonderful it all was, and how he was happy to be guilt free etc. etc. We were shown that if it weren't for Lexi practically torturing the ripper out of Stefan on multiple occasions, he would probably have still been a ripper til this day. How am I supposed to associate that with one who has a pure heart?

Why is it because he feels enormous guilt? Everyone feels guilt after a while, especially when you do something that you know is wrong. That doesn't constitute as having a pure heart to me. Heck even Damon admitted to feeling guilt in season 1 does he have a pure heart too?

[loverofcw1230]

Basically I'm never going to ship Delena. I have my reasons, just as Delena's have their reasons for shipping them. I love Stelena. I love everything about them and I will always ship them. There's nothing ANYBODY can say that will change my mind just as there's nothing I can say that will make anybody like Stelena.
I guess I just find these threads boring and pointless. Nothing to debate really.

[thebabe20]

Dec 19, 2011 11:57:18 GMT -5 loverofcw1230 said:

Basically I'm never going to ship Delena. I have my reasons, just as Delena's have their reasons for shipping them. I love Stelena. I love everything about them and I will always ship them. There's nothing ANYBODY can say that will change my mind just as there's nothing I can say that will make anybody like Stelena.
I guess I just find these threads boring and pointless. Nothing to debate really.

The threads are only for those who want to debate, that's why they're separate. And I don't think it has any thing to do with trying to change anyone's mind. Nobody's trying to change anyone's mind about what they like. Just like you don't like DE I probably will never like SE either. But that's not really the point of discussing or debating (at least I don't think so).But debates and discussions can be good for people wanting to see things from a different perspective. It doesn't always have to be about proving your ship is better or worst. It helps to see how other fans see things differently from you. At the end of the day, it's all friendly debates and discussions. Nothing wrong with that.

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2011 11:57:18 GMT -5 loverofcw1230 said:

Basically I'm never going to ship Delena. I have my reasons, just as Delena's have their reasons for shipping them. I love Stelena. I love everything about them and I will always ship them. There's nothing ANYBODY can say that will change my mind just as there's nothing I can say that will make anybody like Stelena.
I guess I just find these threads boring and pointless. Nothing to debate really.

True

I do like to have my ideas and thoughts challenged every once and awhile... especially in a friendly conversation/debate. It has been interesting to see and getting to understand a different point of view. It is good to be reminded that not everyone thinks like me. Sometimes I get so caught up in my "Stelena/Stefan Bubble" that I forget the other side of the story.

But there is also a time to let it go.... and I think this is the time for me... for now at least.

[Tara]

Dec 19, 2011 12:10:33 GMT -5 @teppy1 said:

Dec 19, 2011 11:57:18 GMT -5 loverofcw1230 said:

Basically I'm never going to ship Delena. I have my reasons, just as Delena's have their reasons for shipping them. I love Stelena. I love everything about them and I will always ship them. There's nothing ANYBODY can say that will change my mind just as there's nothing I can say that will make anybody like Stelena.
I guess I just find these threads boring and pointless. Nothing to debate really.

True

I do like to have my ideas and thoughts challenged every once and awhile... especially in a friendly conversation/debate. It has been interesting to see and getting to understand a different point of view. It is good to be reminded that not everyone thinks like me. Sometimes I get so caught up in my "Stelena/Stefan Bubble" that I forget the other side of the story.

But there is also a time to let it go.... and I think this is the time for me... for now at least.

I like the friendly debates too. It's fun sometimes. But I love the S/E bubble too.

[Tara]

Dec 19, 2011 11:30:44 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

Dec 19, 2011 5:55:29 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

I just want to comment on this. Emily is the same witch that tricked Damon into a deal she never intended to keep her end of the bargain on, so I don't have alot of faith in her own goodness in order to judge anyone else.

Given the fact of his ripper days, is it really true in the end? If we'd have seen Stefan at his worst would we still think he was 'good' and 'pure of heart' when he killed every single person in a village for fun? Damon was never as 'bad' as Stefan got to be and even Stefan acknowledged that. It's sort of a timeline thing, too.

The brothers are at different places at different times. If we look at Damon in 1864, we see that he is trying to be a good person, disgusted with Stefan's ripper behavior and wanting nothing to do with it, then somewhere along the way he swung the other way, bitterness and resentment got the better of him. Stefan started out more into the ripper mode and struggled with that for a long time going in and out of a really dark place and killing countless people. We're not even sure how long or if he's gotten to a place where it can't happen again.

It's like they both do this pendulum thing swinging between being good and being bad, both of them. In all honestly, I don't think either one of them deserves the label 'good' or 'bad' brother. For the sake of argument though there isn't really any other way to show what I think the writers themselves are doing with Stefan on the 'good' front.

So, that's the history even if it seems to me like the writers aren't acknowledging it with this latest ripper thing yet still trying to keep him 'good.' I guess that's where I have trouble with him. Just when I think things will make sense, they don't. They throw out these Stefan saves the day messages while he's supposed to be in the middle of struggling with the ripper and it just makes no sense to me at all, even when he's compelled to shut off his emotions, he's saving the day.

It doesn't match up to the history of him being this out of control killer of villages. At this point I'm not even sure what the point was to the ripper storyline at all if they weren't going to show us some really dark place that lurks inside of him. If there is no dark place why create the label of 'ripper' and build this backstory that indicated there was?

He's just not been bad enough yet to convince me it makes any sense. Now, if he were to slip further into a place where he's killing more innocents in brutal ways, etc etc all on his own, not under compulsion, duress or any other nonsense that they've thrown at us and then Damon brings him out of it, that would make sense, because we've already pretty much been foreshadowed that Damon will be the one to save him.

But again, if they are hesitating on truly making him behave badly so we can see it because of his fanbase than I guess it will never happen and he'll never be popular with the entire tvd audience because he'll never be real enough for some of us, thus earning our sympathy. They miss the boat by playing it safe. Heck I'd even take flashbacks if they don't want to make him that bad present day, just so I can really understand what they meant by 'ripper.'

Can I just say I agree with everything in this post. This is exactly how I feel. I never understood Emily's pure heart comment. And like you said after seeing how untrustworthy she was, it's hard to believe she'd be a good judge of character anyway.

I guess I don't understand how Stefan was supposed to have a pure heart when he was immediately seduced by the power and strength of being a vampire, while his brother only turned for love and once he believed Katherine was dead, wanted no part of being a vampire. After Stefan was first turned he immediately boasted about how powerful he felt and wonderful it all was, and how he was happy to be guilt free etc. etc. We were shown that if it weren't for Lexi practically torturing the ripper out of Stefan on multiple occasions, he would probably have still been a ripper til this day. How am I supposed to associate that with one who has a pure heart?

Why is it because he feels enormous guilt? Everyone feels guilt after a while, especially when you do something that you know is wrong. That doesn't constitute as having a pure heart to me. Heck even Damon admitted to feeling guilt in season 1 does he have a pure heart too?

I think after a point, a part of Stefan always wanted his humanity. I think he does have a good/pure heart. He wants to be good. To me him feeling guilty for what happened while with Klaus shows that. I don't blame him for what happened with the Klaus stuff. He was saving Damon and Elena. But before when he first got turned, yeah he had a bad streak. But you can always overcome what's happening to you. I think Stefan did. I felt like Stefan was kind over overpowered by the affects of being a vampire at first, but eventually found himself again. He did horriable stuff at first( which I think most vampires do, they've shown it with Vicki, Caroline, and even Damon), but I feel he changed himself. That's how I see it anyway.

[thebabe20]

Dec 19, 2011 14:10:28 GMT -5 Tara said:

Dec 19, 2011 11:30:44 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

Can I just say I agree with everything in this post. This is exactly how I feel. I never understood Emily's pure heart comment. And like you said after seeing how untrustworthy she was, it's hard to believe she'd be a good judge of character anyway.

I guess I don't understand how Stefan was supposed to have a pure heart when he was immediately seduced by the power and strength of being a vampire, while his brother only turned for love and once he believed Katherine was dead, wanted no part of being a vampire. After Stefan was first turned he immediately boasted about how powerful he felt and wonderful it all was, and how he was happy to be guilt free etc. etc. We were shown that if it weren't for Lexi practically torturing the ripper out of Stefan on multiple occasions, he would probably have still been a ripper til this day. How am I supposed to associate that with one who has a pure heart?

Why is it because he feels enormous guilt? Everyone feels guilt after a while, especially when you do something that you know is wrong. That doesn't constitute as having a pure heart to me. Heck even Damon admitted to feeling guilt in season 1 does he have a pure heart too?

I think after a point, a part of Stefan always wanted his humanity. I think he does have a good/pure heart. He wants to be good. To me him feeling guilty for what happened while with Klaus shows that. I don't blame him for what happened with the Klaus stuff. He was saving Damon and Elena. But before when he first got turned, yeah he had a bad streak. But you can always overcome what's happening to you. I think Stefan did. I felt like Stefan was kind over overpowered by the affects of being a vampire at first, but eventually found himself again. He did horriable stuff at first( which I think most vampires do, they've shown it with Vicki, Caroline, and even Damon), but I feel he changed himself. That's how I see it anyway.

I get that but I feel that's the case for Damon as well and probably every other vampire who struggles with their humanity. On some level they all want to be good, but they have a hard time completely abandoning their nature as vampires. I guess I just don't understand why they felt the need to exclusively tell us that Stefan of all individuals had a pure heart. What does that even mean? Stefan's heart to me is no more pure than anyone else's.

And to be fair I think in the flashbacks and ghost episode showed that Stefan never actually wanted to feel anything nor did he want to be good. It was Lexi who practically forced him against his will by torturing the "ripper" out of him. Thus "Good" Stefan was created, not of his own choosing but because Lexi made sure he associated being a ripper with torture and pain.

[Doppelgänger]

I like to see what other people think and really ponder things I don't normally ponder, which in this case is Stefan/Stelena, whom I rarely think about let alone try to analyze and in doing that I learn something and that's always a good thing.

I learn to understand what it is that Stelena's see in their ship and/or in Stefan that I don't see and that helps me understand them better, so that's why I enjoy these threads. I've already learned a few things just from this thread alone about Stefan and about how people see him differently then me and I can even say some of what they said was right and I missed it.

I don't enjoy debates when they get nasty between members and people start attacking each other and not discussing the subject at hand in a civil manner. Hopefully that's not going to happen here and if it does the hammer is coming down fairly quickly because I won't allow it in this forum.

As long as everyone is respectful to each other it should just be a nice friendly debate/discussion with hopefully a little more understanding both ways. But that's why it's separate. If you're the type that it bothers you to see debates, don't visit this section of the forum because it will only annoy you.

[Tara]

Dec 19, 2011 14:20:41 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

Dec 19, 2011 14:10:28 GMT -5 Tara said:

I think after a point, a part of Stefan always wanted his humanity. I think he does have a good/pure heart. He wants to be good. To me him feeling guilty for what happened while with Klaus shows that. I don't blame him for what happened with the Klaus stuff. He was saving Damon and Elena. But before when he first got turned, yeah he had a bad streak. But you can always overcome what's happening to you. I think Stefan did. I felt like Stefan was kind over overpowered by the affects of being a vampire at first, but eventually found himself again. He did horriable stuff at first( which I think most vampires do, they've shown it with Vicki, Caroline, and even Damon), but I feel he changed himself. That's how I see it anyway.

I get that but I feel that's the case for Damon as well and probably every other vampire who struggles with their humanity. On some level they all want to be good, but they have a hard time completely abandoning their nature as vampires. I guess I just don't understand why they felt the need to exclusively tell us that Stefan of all individuals had a pure heart. What does that even mean? Stefan's heart to me is no more pure than anyone else's.

And to be fair I think in the flashbacks and ghost episode showed that Stefan never actually wanted to feel anything nor did he want to be good. It was Lexi who practically forced him against his will by torturing the "ripper" out of him. Thus "Good" Stefan was created, not of his own choosing but because Lexi made sure he associated being a ripper with torture and pain.

I guess we see that differently. Because I feel like up until the Klaus thing, Stefan had kind of fought the dark part of himself off for good. I feel that they have given each character their own moments. Not just specifically Stefan. But I feel that is a true representation of Stefan. I always felt that Lexi helped, but Stefan had some say in it. I think it's what Stefan wanted. The last time with "ghost Lexi", no. But the first, I felt it was what he wanted. He started feeling guilt, and not liking who he was. But I don't feel that the writers treat Stefan any better than other characters. They've all had their own little moments.

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2011 14:20:41 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

Dec 19, 2011 14:10:28 GMT -5 Tara said:

I think after a point, a part of Stefan always wanted his humanity. I think he does have a good/pure heart. He wants to be good. To me him feeling guilty for what happened while with Klaus shows that. I don't blame him for what happened with the Klaus stuff. He was saving Damon and Elena. But before when he first got turned, yeah he had a bad streak. But you can always overcome what's happening to you. I think Stefan did. I felt like Stefan was kind over overpowered by the affects of being a vampire at first, but eventually found himself again. He did horriable stuff at first( which I think most vampires do, they've shown it with Vicki, Caroline, and even Damon), but I feel he changed himself. That's how I see it anyway.

I get that but I feel that's the case for Damon as well and probably every other vampire who struggles with their humanity. On some level they all want to be good, but they have a hard time completely abandoning their nature as vampires. I guess I just don't understand why they felt the need to exclusively tell us that Stefan of all individuals had a pure heart. What does that even mean? Stefan's heart to me is no more pure than anyone else's.

And to be fair I think in the flashbacks and ghost episode showed that Stefan never actually wanted to feel anything nor did he want to be good. It was Lexi who practically forced him against his will by torturing the "ripper" out of him. Thus "Good" Stefan was created, not of his own choosing but because Lexi made sure he associated being a ripper with torture and pain.

okay I sucked back in

I think that was just in response him saying that he thought it was a gift... not that it just applied to him per say... now that I look back on it... I didn't think that the time, but reading what you wrote I do think Stefan has a harder time dealing/coping with his guilt (maybe?) but I think it was the writers way of expressing Stefan and maybe all vampires internal struggle not just Stefans. What do you think?

[Doppelgänger]

Dec 19, 2011 14:10:28 GMT -5 Tara said:

Dec 19, 2011 11:30:44 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

Can I just say I agree with everything in this post. This is exactly how I feel. I never understood Emily's pure heart comment. And like you said after seeing how untrustworthy she was, it's hard to believe she'd be a good judge of character anyway.

I guess I don't understand how Stefan was supposed to have a pure heart when he was immediately seduced by the power and strength of being a vampire, while his brother only turned for love and once he believed Katherine was dead, wanted no part of being a vampire. After Stefan was first turned he immediately boasted about how powerful he felt and wonderful it all was, and how he was happy to be guilt free etc. etc. We were shown that if it weren't for Lexi practically torturing the ripper out of Stefan on multiple occasions, he would probably have still been a ripper til this day. How am I supposed to associate that with one who has a pure heart?

Why is it because he feels enormous guilt? Everyone feels guilt after a while, especially when you do something that you know is wrong. That doesn't constitute as having a pure heart to me. Heck even Damon admitted to feeling guilt in season 1 does he have a pure heart too?

I think after a point, a part of Stefan always wanted his humanity. I think he does have a good/pure heart. He wants to be good. To me him feeling guilty for what happened while with Klaus shows that. I don't blame him for what happened with the Klaus stuff. He was saving Damon and Elena. But before when he first got turned, yeah he had a bad streak. But you can always overcome what's happening to you. I think Stefan did. I felt like Stefan was kind over overpowered by the affects of being a vampire at first, but eventually found himself again. He did horriable stuff at first( which I think most vampires do, they've shown it with Vicki, Caroline, and even Damon), but I feel he changed himself. That's how I see it anyway.

I agree with all of this. This is why I always say I don't think we can really say there's a 'good' brother and a 'bad' brother. They both have gone through similar journeys at different times and they both had positive influences that helped them do it. In Stefan's case it was Lexi and in Damon's case it's been Elena. They both also have the capacity for good and bad behavior and they both have the vampire instinct to 'kill' that they have to deal with still.

Somehow though Damon got the dubious title of the 'bad' brother and Stefan got the 'good' brother and I think it was only because of the space of time the show started in. Had it started back in 1864, those positions would have been reversed as we see by the flashbacks.

Damon did certainly appear to be only looking for trouble/mayhem when he first arrived in Mystic Falls but then we learn fairly quickly he wasn't what he appeared to be. The same goes for Stefan. So really, the brothers aren't so very different in my mind from that perspective.

[thebabe20]

Dec 19, 2011 14:31:49 GMT -5 Tara said:

Dec 19, 2011 14:20:41 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

I get that but I feel that's the case for Damon as well and probably every other vampire who struggles with their humanity. On some level they all want to be good, but they have a hard time completely abandoning their nature as vampires. I guess I just don't understand why they felt the need to exclusively tell us that Stefan of all individuals had a pure heart. What does that even mean? Stefan's heart to me is no more pure than anyone else's.

And to be fair I think in the flashbacks and ghost episode showed that Stefan never actually wanted to feel anything nor did he want to be good. It was Lexi who practically forced him against his will by torturing the "ripper" out of him. Thus "Good" Stefan was created, not of his own choosing but because Lexi made sure he associated being a ripper with torture and pain.

I guess we see that differently. Because I feel like up until the Klaus thing, Stefan had kind of fought the dark part of himself off for good. I feel that they have given each character their own moments. Not just specifically Stefan. But I feel that is a true representation of Stefan. I always felt that Lexi helped, but Stefan had some say in it. I think it's what Stefan wanted. The last time with "ghost Lexi", no. But the first, I felt it was what he wanted. He started feeling guilt, and not liking who he was. But I don't feel that the writers treat Stefan any better than other characters. They've all had their own little moments.

The reason I say that is because when "ghost" Lexi appeared she told Elena that this is the same process she took with him in the past. Implying that every time he fell off the wagon in the past this is the same routine that it took to get him back to his "good" self. I got the impression that this was not the first time she tortured him, so she had to have done it in the past to get him back on track.

When it comes to Stefan I have to say that Lexi's torture method is probably why he's never reconciled with both parts of his personality. Like Damon told him, Stefan is either one extreme or the other. He's either very good, or very bad, but neither one of these are an accurate depiction of who he is as an individual. Stefan needs to find a medium, a balance. I think even the writers said in an interview that the Stefan we knew from the previous seasons is only part of who Stefan is, after this experience with Klaus he'll no longer be that person again. He'll have to reconcile with his vampire nature, and find a medium.

While I think Klaus was a catalyst for Stefan's change, I think it would have had to happen at some point no matter what.

[Tara]

Dec 19, 2011 14:38:23 GMT -5 Doppelgänger said:

Dec 19, 2011 14:10:28 GMT -5 Tara said:

I think after a point, a part of Stefan always wanted his humanity. I think he does have a good/pure heart. He wants to be good. To me him feeling guilty for what happened while with Klaus shows that. I don't blame him for what happened with the Klaus stuff. He was saving Damon and Elena. But before when he first got turned, yeah he had a bad streak. But you can always overcome what's happening to you. I think Stefan did. I felt like Stefan was kind over overpowered by the affects of being a vampire at first, but eventually found himself again. He did horriable stuff at first( which I think most vampires do, they've shown it with Vicki, Caroline, and even Damon), but I feel he changed himself. That's how I see it anyway.

I agree with all of this. This is why I always say I don't think we can really say there's a 'good' brother and a 'bad' brother. They both have gone through similar journeys at different times and they both had positive influences that helped them do it. In Stefan's case it was Lexi and in Damon's case it's been Elena. They both also have the capacity for good and bad behavior and they both have the vampire instinct to 'kill' that they have to deal with still.

Somehow though Damon got the dubious title of the 'bad' brother and Stefan got the 'good' brother and I think it was only because of the space of time the show started in. Had it started back in 1864, those positions would have been reversed as we see by the flashbacks.

Damon did certainly appear to be only looking for trouble/mayhem when he first arrived in Mystic Falls but then we learn fairly quickly he wasn't what he appeared to be. The same goes for Stefan. So really, the brothers aren't so very different in my mind from that perspective.

I never really thought of Damon as "bad". I think he gives off the "bad boy" type. But it doesn't make him evil. I think he's just more ok with what being a vampire is. Where he's kind of accepted everything. But, I don't see that as being a bad guy.

[Tara]

Dec 19, 2011 14:42:01 GMT -5 thebabe20 said:

Dec 19, 2011 14:31:49 GMT -5 Tara said:

I guess we see that differently. Because I feel like up until the Klaus thing, Stefan had kind of fought the dark part of himself off for good. I feel that they have given each character their own moments. Not just specifically Stefan. But I feel that is a true representation of Stefan. I always felt that Lexi helped, but Stefan had some say in it. I think it's what Stefan wanted. The last time with "ghost Lexi", no. But the first, I felt it was what he wanted. He started feeling guilt, and not liking who he was. But I don't feel that the writers treat Stefan any better than other characters. They've all had their own little moments.

The reason I say that is because when "ghost" Lexi appeared she told Elena that this is the same process she took with him in the past. Implying that every time he fell off the wagon in the past this is the same routine that it took to get him back to his "good" self. I got the impression that this was not the first time she tortured him, so she had to have done it in the past to get him back on track.

When it comes to Stefan I have to say that Lexi's torture method is probably why he's never reconciled with both parts of his personality. Like Damon told him, Stefan is either one extreme or the other. He's either very good, or very bad, but neither one of these are an accurate depiction of who he is as an individual. Stefan needs to find a medium, a balance. I think even the writers said in an interview that the Stefan we knew from the previous seasons is only part of who Stefan is, after this experience with Klaus he'll no longer be that person again. He'll have to reconcile with his vampire nature, and find a medium.

While I think Klaus was a catalyst for Stefan's change, I think it would have had to happen at some point no matter what.

Thats where I disagree. I feel at the time, it was a true represention of who Stefan is and wants to be. If he doesn't want to feed on humans and have his humanity. I think thats fine. I don't think it's not real. It's a choice. If he want's to fight the darkness in him, why can't he? I'm not saying he can't find a medium. But if he want's to be that, why not?