|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 19, 2011 14:52:09 GMT -5
To me saying "Your heart is pure" is kind of vague. I can't reconcile the things he did as a ripper with a pure heart in the sense I would think it was meant in.
As for Damon, I think it was Lexi who told Damon that his bitterness would get the better of him when he was leaving Stefan with Lexi and he had asked her to take care of him, and it definitely did get the better of him at some point.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tara on Dec 19, 2011 15:01:24 GMT -5
To me saying "Your heart is pure" is kind of vague. I can't reconcile the things he did as a ripper with a pure heart in the sense I would think it was meant in. As for Damon, I think it was Lexi who told Damon that his bitterness would get the better of him when he was leaving Stefan with Lexi and he had asked her to take care of him, and it definitely did get the better of him at some point. I think people can overcome things. I think Stefan has a pure heart. I don't think he wants to hurt anyone or be evil. I guess maybe we have different definitions? Or maybe I see it as more of a growing thing. |
|
|
|
Post by thebabe20 on Dec 19, 2011 15:02:57 GMT -5
The reason I say that is because when "ghost" Lexi appeared she told Elena that this is the same process she took with him in the past. Implying that every time he fell off the wagon in the past this is the same routine that it took to get him back to his "good" self. I got the impression that this was not the first time she tortured him, so she had to have done it in the past to get him back on track. When it comes to Stefan I have to say that Lexi's torture method is probably why he's never reconciled with both parts of his personality. Like Damon told him, Stefan is either one extreme or the other. He's either very good, or very bad, but neither one of these are an accurate depiction of who he is as an individual. Stefan needs to find a medium, a balance. I think even the writers said in an interview that the Stefan we knew from the previous seasons is only part of who Stefan is, after this experience with Klaus he'll no longer be that person again. He'll have to reconcile with his vampire nature, and find a medium. While I think Klaus was a catalyst for Stefan's change, I think it would have had to happen at some point no matter what. Thats where I disagree. I feel at the time, it was a true represention of who Stefan is and wants to be. If he doesn't want to feed on humans and have his humanity. I think thats fine. I don't think it's not real. It's a choice. If he want's to fight the darkness in him, why can't he? I'm not saying he can't find a medium. But if he want's to be that, why not? I think this is where we'll probably agree to disagree because I know when it comes to vampires on this show my morals are very loose.  |
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 19, 2011 15:12:00 GMT -5
The reason I say that is because when "ghost" Lexi appeared she told Elena that this is the same process she took with him in the past. Implying that every time he fell off the wagon in the past this is the same routine that it took to get him back to his "good" self. I got the impression that this was not the first time she tortured him, so she had to have done it in the past to get him back on track. When it comes to Stefan I have to say that Lexi's torture method is probably why he's never reconciled with both parts of his personality. Like Damon told him, Stefan is either one extreme or the other. He's either very good, or very bad, but neither one of these are an accurate depiction of who he is as an individual. Stefan needs to find a medium, a balance. I think even the writers said in an interview that the Stefan we knew from the previous seasons is only part of who Stefan is, after this experience with Klaus he'll no longer be that person again. He'll have to reconcile with his vampire nature, and find a medium. While I think Klaus was a catalyst for Stefan's change, I think it would have had to happen at some point no matter what. Thats where I disagree. I feel at the time, it was a true represention of who Stefan is and wants to be. If he doesn't want to feed on humans and have his humanity. I think thats fine. I don't think it's not real. It's a choice. If he want's to fight the darkness in him, why can't he? I'm not saying he can't find a medium. But if he want's to be that, why not? I think because it will always rear it's ugly head and bite him in the butt, *pun intended* What we wound up with was two Stefans. Stefan when he's being good and Stefan when he's the ripper and they were extreme opposites and not a balanced whole. By saying he needs to find a balance that isn't saying he needs to be 'bad.' He can still be just as good as he wants to be. But I always thought of pre-ripper Stefan as too good to be true (the good extreme). He didn't allow himself any slack or ability to make mistakes. He restrained himself completely so when he fell, he fell hard. He expected too much out of himself as a vampire and he was hard on himself when he made the tiniest mistake and also, as a result, hard on his brother for Damon's mistakes, too. In other words, Stefan had to be perfect. That was the pressure he put upon himself. There's where his balance was off, in my opinion, not that he can't still try his best to be good. I'm not sure how he can fix his blood addiction problems. It seemed like sometimes he could drink blood and sometimes he couldn't without there being disastrous results, the attack on Amber for instance. We saw him fall off the wagon a couple times before Klaus was even in the picture so it's not realistic that he can manage for long without occasionally succumbing to the blood. When he was having the small amounts from Elena it seemed like it might work and maybe it would have, given enough time. Even Damon has been trying to teach him when to say when with the trip to the bar. I guess that's the balance and will be his journey, being able to integrate human blood back into his life without going nuts and falling off the edge into ripperville because of it.I mean let's face it, they are vampires. They can feed and not kill if they learn how. Caroline does it, and there's always blood bags and willing donors  So he doesn't have to do anything that he feels is wrong. Really he's only fed on animals because he lost control. I don't think it's because he wouldn't go for say, the blood bags if he could handle it. |
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 19, 2011 15:32:58 GMT -5
Thats where I disagree. I feel at the time, it was a true represention of who Stefan is and wants to be. If he doesn't want to feed on humans and have his humanity. I think thats fine. I don't think it's not real. It's a choice. If he want's to fight the darkness in him, why can't he? I'm not saying he can't find a medium. But if he want's to be that, why not? I think this is where we'll probably agree to disagree because I know when it comes to vampires on this show my morals are very loose. I'm with ya. All this angst over a vampire feeding on humans which is the natural thing for them to do is a bit odd to me. Damn that Edward Cullen! My idea of a vampire is 'old school' I guess. Of course these books were written first, but I digress. Edward made it popular with the current vampire fans to refrain from eating people. In the books though Stefan didn't have this ripper problem and Damon always ate people and nobody said boo about it. Prolly cause he'd tear their heart out.  |
|
seersha
Full Member
avatar credit: infinite-angst@livejournal
Posts: 151
|
Post by seersha on Dec 19, 2011 15:49:18 GMT -5
The reason I say that is because when "ghost" Lexi appeared she told Elena that this is the same process she took with him in the past. Implying that every time he fell off the wagon in the past this is the same routine that it took to get him back to his "good" self. I got the impression that this was not the first time she tortured him, so she had to have done it in the past to get him back on track. When it comes to Stefan I have to say that Lexi's torture method is probably why he's never reconciled with both parts of his personality. Like Damon told him, Stefan is either one extreme or the other. He's either very good, or very bad, but neither one of these are an accurate depiction of who he is as an individual. Stefan needs to find a medium, a balance. I think even the writers said in an interview that the Stefan we knew from the previous seasons is only part of who Stefan is, after this experience with Klaus he'll no longer be that person again. He'll have to reconcile with his vampire nature, and find a medium. Hi. I don't want to get into the Stelena/Delena debate, really (or has this now become a Stefan/Damon debate?), but I did just want to comment on this. Everyone obviously interprets the show a certain way, so I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong. But I disagree that the "torture Stefan" method Lexi displayed in 3x07 is the method she must have used every time she tried to help Stefan. I think that Lexi knew she was on limited time and therefore took her methods to an extreme, thus why she sped up his hallucinations of being blood deprived and tried to prompt a reaction from him with the aid of torture. As they say, "desperate times call for desperate measures." My impression of her methods in the past don't necessarily include torture, at least not in the sense of her chaining him to a chair and staking him repeatedly. I do think she basically told him to cut out human blood and encouraged him drinking animal blood as a method to try and help him get himself under control. It's obvious Stefan has issues with control when he's on human blood, Lexi must have seen this and maybe she was the one to first suggest that he needed to stop that (at least for a time), in order to get himself under control and give himself a chance to really feel / let his humanity back in. Stefan said it took him nearly 30 years after she found him in the 1920s for him to really work himself out enough to function. Lexi had the luxury of time back then, so it seems to me her methods would have reflected that. She had time to sit patiently day after day and wait for Stefan to let himself feel. She had the time to routinely drag him away from drinking human blood, if that's what it took. So yeah... that's my reasonings as to why I don't think the methods we saw Lexi use on Stefan this season are entirely accurate of how she approached him in the past. She'd also had years of experience by this point we saw in S3 on dealing specifically with Stefan, so went in hard and fast and and did everything to push every button she could to try and snap him out of things with what little time she had. I doubt she had all that figured out from day one with Stefan, no, that's stuff she would have had to work out through years of helping him again and again, and maybe each time it got a little quicker/easier, in terms of her knowing the best approach. But I just don't believe the Stefan/Lexi relationship we saw in S1 was built the way it was if all of Lexi's help consisted of nothing but physical torture. Perhaps in Stefan's darker days he couldn't appreciate her help, but he definitely did later. And if there was any torture involved int he past, it probably came simply from Stefan "detoxing" from human blood and any emotional guilt/regret feelings he had to work through. To me it seems that must have been a bigger area Lexi helped Stefan with, after all one of her 'projects' was getting him to smile. Lexi helping Stefan wasn't just about helping him control his ripper ways in terms of killing/drinking human blood, it was also about getting him to feel, to love, to laugh. Lexi's entire reasoning to Stefan the first time she meets him was: "Love, Stefan, that's the point." From little comments, we know they hung out in good times, too, enjoying each others company. We know one of their traditions was celebrating his birthday and that seemed like it was a long standing "date" so to speak. For sure the Lexi/Stefan relationship is complicated, but I just personally think to base Lexi's methods of helping Stefan on just what we saw in 3x07 misses out on considering the longer history they have. |
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 19, 2011 16:08:35 GMT -5
I guess we're just kind of drifting between all those subjects. Well, you may be right. She may have employed any number of methods to get through to him, but apparently the torture method must have worked quite well because that is what she told Elena to do also.
By the point though that this may have become how she delt with him, I think Stefan trusted Lexi implicitly and would not have held it against her later and that's why they could still have the relationship they had despite it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tara on Dec 19, 2011 16:16:59 GMT -5
I think this is where we'll probably agree to disagree because I know when it comes to vampires on this show my morals are very loose. I'm with ya. All this angst over a vampire feeding on humans which is the natural thing for them to do is a bit odd to me. Damn that Edward Cullen! My idea of a vampire is 'old school' I guess. Of course these books were written first, but I digress. Edward made it popular with the current vampire fans to refrain from eating people. In the books though Stefan didn't have this ripper problem and Damon always ate people and nobody said boo about it. Prolly cause he'd tear their heart out.  I don't like Stefan (or Edward) because they eat animals. I just like their personalities. I guess maybe I like that they push themselves, want to be the best they can. I like the "real vampires" like Interview With A Vampire and all that, but I also enjoy the new vampires too.  |
|
|
|
Post by thebabe20 on Dec 19, 2011 16:24:16 GMT -5
The reason I say that is because when "ghost" Lexi appeared she told Elena that this is the same process she took with him in the past. Implying that every time he fell off the wagon in the past this is the same routine that it took to get him back to his "good" self. I got the impression that this was not the first time she tortured him, so she had to have done it in the past to get him back on track. When it comes to Stefan I have to say that Lexi's torture method is probably why he's never reconciled with both parts of his personality. Like Damon told him, Stefan is either one extreme or the other. He's either very good, or very bad, but neither one of these are an accurate depiction of who he is as an individual. Stefan needs to find a medium, a balance. I think even the writers said in an interview that the Stefan we knew from the previous seasons is only part of who Stefan is, after this experience with Klaus he'll no longer be that person again. He'll have to reconcile with his vampire nature, and find a medium. Hi. I don't want to get into the Stelena/Delena debate, really (or has this now become a Stefan/Damon debate?), but I did just want to comment on this. Everyone obviously interprets the show a certain way, so I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong. But I disagree that the "torture Stefan" method Lexi displayed in 3x07 is the method she must have used every time she tried to help Stefan. I think that Lexi knew she was on limited time and therefore took her methods to an extreme, thus why she sped up his hallucinations of being blood deprived and tried to prompt a reaction from him with the aid of torture. As they say, "desperate times call for desperate measures." My impression of her methods in the past don't necessarily include torture, at least not in the sense of her chaining him to a chair and staking him repeatedly. I do think she basically told him to cut out human blood and encouraged him drinking animal blood as a method to try and help him get himself under control. It's obvious Stefan has issues with control when he's on human blood, Lexi must have seen this and maybe she was the one to first suggest that he needed to stop that (at least for a time), in order to get himself under control and give himself a chance to really feel / let his humanity back in. Stefan said it took him nearly 30 years after she found him in the 1920s for him to really work himself out enough to function. Lexi had the luxury of time back then, so it seems to me her methods would have reflected that. She had time to sit patiently day after day and wait for Stefan to let himself feel. She had the time to routinely drag him away from drinking human blood, if that's what it took. So yeah... that's my reasonings as to why I don't think the methods we saw Lexi use on Stefan this season are entirely accurate of how she approached him in the past. She'd also had years of experience by this point we saw in S3 on dealing specifically with Stefan, so went in hard and fast and and did everything to push every button she could to try and snap him out of things with what little time she had. I doubt she had all that figured out from day one with Stefan, no, that's stuff she would have had to work out through years of helping him again and again, and maybe each time it got a little quicker/easier, in terms of her knowing the best approach. But I just don't believe the Stefan/Lexi relationship we saw in S1 was built the way it was if all of Lexi's help consisted of nothing but physical torture. Perhaps in Stefan's darker days he couldn't appreciate her help, but he definitely did later. And if there was any torture involved int he past, it probably came simply from Stefan "detoxing" from human blood and any emotional guilt/regret feelings he had to work through. To me it seems that must have been a bigger area Lexi helped Stefan with, after all one of her 'projects' was getting him to smile. Lexi helping Stefan wasn't just about helping him control his ripper ways in terms of killing/drinking human blood, it was also about getting him to feel, to love, to laugh. Lexi's entire reasoning to Stefan the first time she meets him was: "Love, Stefan, that's the point." From little comments, we know they hung out in good times, too, enjoying each others company. We know one of their traditions was celebrating his birthday and that seemed like it was a long standing "date" so to speak. For sure the Lexi/Stefan relationship is complicated, but I just personally think to base Lexi's methods of helping Stefan on just what we saw in 3x07 misses out on considering the longer history they have. The question I have is where would she have gotten the idea to torture him the first place? Not only that but she only encouraged Elena to do the same when she was gone. Elena was specifically instructed by Lexi to continue to starve Stefan and keep him locked up in a cellar until "he got over it". No where did she explain to Elena anything else she did to help Stefan aside from the torture and the imprisonment. And even asked Elena if she would be able to handle it. I don't know if it's just me but her methods just seem a little extreme. And I think if you have to physically or mentally torture someone in any way to change something about themselves, then clearly this person either doesn't want to or is not ready to change. I know that Stefan and Lexi's relationship is a lot more than her torturing him. That's not what I was implying. I know they had good times too as she was obviously his best friend, but I simply disagree with her approach to helping him find his humanity. I never got the impression that this is something he ever wanted, or rather was forced upon him because she was more determined to fix him than he was to hold on to his past ways. It sort of reminded me of Caroline's dad trying to torture the evil out of Caroline because she was a vampire. I didn't see much of a difference there. Not to mention her method of helping Stefan clearly was never effective given the way he chose to live his life afterwards. Falling on and off the wagon. Clearly he continued to battle these demons inside him and they obviously won out a few times. Instead of teaching him balance and moderation I get the impression that Lexi's method only taught Stefan to hate that part of himself to the point where he felt the need to overcompensate by being the extreme good guy. Not saying that was her intention, but it's certainly the effect I felt it had. By alienating that part of his nature that he associated with "bad." If Lexi's method was at all effective Stefan wouldn't be struggling with his identity till this day. He wouldn't have had problems with human blood and so on... He wouldn't deny his nature to such an extreme because he's afraid of what he might become. He would have learned to reconcile with that part of him a long time ago. I don't doubt there were other things she did to help him, but the way she spoke to Elena and the way she described "other times" makes me believe mentally and to some degree physically torturing him played a huge part in her helping him rediscover humanity. Which is why I think Damon saying "screw Lexi's plan" was so poignant because that's not what Stefan needs. Stefan needs to want his humanity again, and he needs to learn that he doesn't always have to be one extreme or the other. He doesn't need someone forcing him to accept his humanity against his will. |
|
|
|
Post by Doppelgänger on Dec 19, 2011 16:27:56 GMT -5
I'm with ya. All this angst over a vampire feeding on humans which is the natural thing for them to do is a bit odd to me. Damn that Edward Cullen! My idea of a vampire is 'old school' I guess. Of course these books were written first, but I digress. Edward made it popular with the current vampire fans to refrain from eating people. In the books though Stefan didn't have this ripper problem and Damon always ate people and nobody said boo about it. Prolly cause he'd tear their heart out. I don't like Stefan (or Edward) because they eat animals. I just like their personalities. I guess maybe I like that they push themselves, want to be the best they can. I like the "real vampires" like Interview With A Vampire and all that, but I also enjoy the new vampires too. I was making a joke blaming Edward for everything. But, I see where you're coming from. They take the hard road eating the bunnies. Of course it seems Edward has an easier time of it then poor Stefan. |
|
|
|
Post by Princess of Darkness on Dec 19, 2011 16:43:41 GMT -5
Can I just say I agree with everything in this post. This is exactly how I feel. I never understood Emily's pure heart comment. And like you said after seeing how untrustworthy she was, it's hard to believe she'd be a good judge of character anyway. I guess I don't understand how Stefan was supposed to have a pure heart when he was immediately seduced by the power and strength of being a vampire, while his brother only turned for love and once he believed Katherine was dead, wanted no part of being a vampire. After Stefan was first turned he immediately boasted about how powerful he felt and wonderful it all was, and how he was happy to be guilt free etc. etc. We were shown that if it weren't for Lexi practically torturing the ripper out of Stefan on multiple occasions, he would probably have still been a ripper til this day. How am I supposed to associate that with one who has a pure heart? [/size] Why is it because he feels enormous guilt? Everyone feels guilt after a while, especially when you do something that you know is wrong. That doesn't constitute as having a pure heart to me. Heck even Damon admitted to feeling guilt in season 1 does he have a pure heart too? [/size] [/quote]
I completely agree!!! |
|
|
|
Post by Princess of Darkness on Dec 19, 2011 16:47:30 GMT -5
Thats where I disagree. I feel at the time, it was a true represention of who Stefan is and wants to be. If he doesn't want to feed on humans and have his humanity. I think thats fine. I don't think it's not real. It's a choice. If he want's to fight the darkness in him, why can't he? I'm not saying he can't find a medium. But if he want's to be that, why not?
[/color] |
|
|
|
Post by Princess of Darkness on Dec 19, 2011 16:53:12 GMT -5
Basically I'm never going to ship Delena. I have my reasons, just as Delena's have their reasons for shipping them. I love Stelena. I love everything about them and I will always ship them. There's nothing ANYBODY can say that will change my mind just as there's nothing I can say that will make anybody like Stelena. I guess I just find these threads boring and pointless. Nothing to debate really.  The threads are only for those who want to debate, that's why they're separate. And I don't think it has any thing to do with trying to change anyone's mind. Nobody's trying to change anyone's mind about what they like. Just like you don't like DE I probably will never like SE either. But that's not really the point of discussing or debating (at least I don't think so).But debates and discussions can be good for people wanting to see things from a different perspective. It doesn't always have to be about proving your ship is better or worst. It helps to see how other fans see things differently from you. At the end of the day, it's all friendly debates and discussions. Nothing wrong with that. 
I completely agree. Kelly-- I understand where you're coming from, but I feel that especially with these threads separate, anyone who isn't interested, doesn't have to participate. |
|
|
|
Post by thebabe20 on Dec 19, 2011 16:53:36 GMT -5
Thats where I disagree. I feel at the time, it was a true represention of who Stefan is and wants to be. If he doesn't want to feed on humans and have his humanity. I think thats fine. I don't think it's not real. It's a choice. If he want's to fight the darkness in him, why can't he? I'm not saying he can't find a medium. But if he want's to be that, why not?
[/color][/quote] I knew I read that somewhere. Just couldn't figure out where.. Thanks for finding the quote. |
|
|
|
Post by Princess of Darkness on Dec 19, 2011 16:55:15 GMT -5
"I don't know that he can return to who he was because who he was was not actually a true representation of who he is." -Julie Plec on Stefan.
[/color][/quote] I knew I read that somewhere. Just couldn't figure out where.. Thanks for finding the quote. [/quote]
I'd actually posted it earlier in the thread, but thought I'd bring it back for reference. I've really enjoyed your posts in this thread. There are a few things we see differently, but for the most part you put words to my thoughts.  |
|
